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prostrations in morning/evening prayers

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  • bimperl
    I apologize if this has already been covered.. I m new. Are there any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during morning and evening prayers?
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 1, 2004
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      I apologize if this has already been covered.. I'm new. Are there
      any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during
      morning and evening prayers? There are very few rubrics in the
      Jordanville prayerbook and I dont know whether or not I can
      prostrate/bow according to the old rite prayer book while reading
      from the Jordanville book. Or can anyone recommend a prayerbook with
      more thorough instructions/guidelines for such things in the
      morning/evening prayers? Thanks

      Noah Barrett
    • Kiril Bart
      Trisagion - three times, Our Father - once O come, let us worship God our King... - three times Subd. Kirill ... __________________________________ Do you
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 2004
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        Trisagion - three times,
        Our Father - once
        O come, let us worship God our King... - three times
        Subd. Kirill






        --- bimperl <barretnc@...> wrote:
        > I apologize if this has already been covered.. I'm new. Are there
        > any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during
        > morning and evening prayers? There are very few rubrics in the
        > Jordanville prayerbook and I dont know whether or not I can
        > prostrate/bow according to the old rite prayer book while reading
        > from the Jordanville book. Or can anyone recommend a prayerbook
        > with
        > more thorough instructions/guidelines for such things in the
        > morning/evening prayers? Thanks
        >
        > Noah Barrett
        >
        >





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      • bimperl
        bows or prostrations? and are these the only instances where it is appropriate (outside of useing the old rite prayer book)? ... there ... reading
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 2, 2004
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          bows or prostrations? and are these the only instances where it is
          appropriate (outside of useing the old rite prayer book)?

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
          > Trisagion - three times,
          > Our Father - once
          > O come, let us worship God our King... - three times
          > Subd. Kirill
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- bimperl <barretnc@l...> wrote:
          > > I apologize if this has already been covered.. I'm new. Are
          there
          > > any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during
          > > morning and evening prayers? There are very few rubrics in the
          > > Jordanville prayerbook and I dont know whether or not I can
          > > prostrate/bow according to the old rite prayer book while
          reading
          > > from the Jordanville book. Or can anyone recommend a prayerbook
          > > with
          > > more thorough instructions/guidelines for such things in the
          > > morning/evening prayers? Thanks
          > >
          > > Noah Barrett
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
          > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
        • Kiril Bart
          Monday - Saturday - prostrations Subday - bows Paschal season - bows And there is few more instances, but I have no translation of the prayers. Subd. Kirill
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 2, 2004
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            Monday - Saturday - prostrations
            Subday - bows
            Paschal season - bows
            And there is few more instances, but I have no translation of the
            prayers.
            Subd. Kirill

            --- bimperl <barretnc@...> wrote:
            > bows or prostrations? and are these the only instances where it is
            > appropriate (outside of useing the old rite prayer book)?
            >
            > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:
            > > Trisagion - three times,
            > > Our Father - once
            > > O come, let us worship God our King... - three times
            > > Subd. Kirill
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- bimperl <barretnc@l...> wrote:
            > > > I apologize if this has already been covered.. I'm new. Are
            > there
            > > > any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during
            > > > morning and evening prayers? There are very few rubrics in the
            > > > Jordanville prayerbook and I dont know whether or not I can
            > > > prostrate/bow according to the old rite prayer book while
            > reading
            > > > from the Jordanville book. Or can anyone recommend a prayerbook
            > > > with
            > > > more thorough instructions/guidelines for such things in the
            > > > morning/evening prayers? Thanks
            > > >
            > > > Noah Barrett
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
            > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
            >
            >





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          • Peter Fekula
            I would say that a prostration at the end of It is truly meet... at the end of morning and evening prayers is not out of place after Pentecost. I also
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 2, 2004
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              I would say that a prostration at the end of "It is truly meet..." at the end of morning and evening prayers is not out of place after Pentecost. I also suspect that Subdeacon Kirill has bows in mind below; I have never seen full prostrations indicated at the three places he indicates, only metania.

              Finally, it seems to me that it wouldn't be all that untoward to use the Jordanville prayerbook, yet follow the Old Rite rubrics for bows and prostrations.

              Peter Fekula


              On Wednesday, June 2, 2004 2:53 PM, bimperl wrote:

              bows or prostrations? and are these the only instances where it is appropriate (outside of useing the old rite prayer book)?

              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Kiril Bart <kirbart@y...> wrote:

              Trisagion - three times,
              Our Father - once
              O come, let us worship God our King... - three times

              Subd. Kirill


              --- bimperl <barretnc@l...> wrote:

              I apologize if this has already been covered.. I'm new. Are there any guidelines for when prostrations can/should be done during morning and evening prayers? There are very few rubrics in the
              Jordanville prayerbook and I dont know whether or not I can prostrate/bow according to the old rite prayer book while reading from the Jordanville book. Or can anyone recommend a prayerbook with more thorough instructions/guidelines for such things in the morning/evening prayers? Thanks

              Noah Barrett
            • BAUMGARTH@FORDHAM.EDU
              Christ is in our midst! I recall somebody remarking on ustav that the ceremonial directions in the revised Jordanville Prayerbook were based upon Old Believer
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 3, 2004
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                Christ is in our midst!
                I recall somebody remarking on ustav that the ceremonial directions
                in the revised Jordanville Prayerbook were based upon Old Believer practice
                (such as the equation of kneeling with prostration). Can any of our
                subscribers confirm this?
                Thanks,
                Deacon Patrick
              • bimperl
                Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book? BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant differences between
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 5, 2004
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                  Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book?
                  BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant
                  differences between Jordanville and Holy Transfiguration's (Greek)
                  prayer book, either in its rubrics or the prayers themselves?

                  Thanks,
                  Noah

                  --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, BAUMGARTH@F... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Christ is in our midst!
                  > I recall somebody remarking on ustav that the ceremonial
                  directions
                  > in the revised Jordanville Prayerbook were based upon Old Believer
                  practice
                  > (such as the equation of kneeling with prostration). Can any of
                  our
                  > subscribers confirm this?
                  > Thanks,
                  > Deacon Patrick
                • James Morgan
                  Dear Noah: I have been using the Old Rite prayer book for years (right side of page only, please!) And I find it is probably the smoothest and best thought out
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 5, 2004
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                    Dear Noah:

                    I have been using the Old Rite prayer book for years (right side of page
                    only, please!)
                    And I find it is probably the smoothest and best thought out translation
                    available. Both Jordanville and HTM books have some clumsiness in their
                    translations to my way of thinking.
                    For private prayer I do not pay too much attention to rubrics. I was told
                    by a priest some time ago tthat the main thing is to pray, to focus my mind
                    and heart on God, and not to get too involved in the details of how many
                    prostrations or bows or whatever. If the outward acts are concentrated on
                    they can get in the way of the interior motivations.

                    But of all the books out there the Old Rite one is the best for me. Also, a
                    much greater selection of Pre-communion prayers than the others have!

                    Rdr. James Morgan
                    Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
                    Olympia, WA

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: bimperl [mailto:barretnc@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 4:33 PM
                    To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ustav] Re: prostrations in morning/evening prayers

                    Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book?
                    BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant
                    differences between Jordanville and Holy Transfiguration's (Greek)
                    prayer book, either in its rubrics or the prayers themselves?

                    Thanks,
                    Noah
                  • stephen_r1937
                    No problem using the Old Rite prayer book; the Erie church is in ROCOR, and the idea that there is something really wrong with the Old Rite has now been pretty
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 5, 2004
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                      No problem using the Old Rite prayer book; the Erie church is in
                      ROCOR, and the idea that there is something really wrong with the Old
                      Rite has now been pretty well relegated to the dust-bin of history, as
                      they say--although I'm sure that if you look far enough you can find
                      those who still uphold it.

                      If you compare the Holy Transfiguration, Jordanville, and Eire prayer
                      books, you will indeed find some differences both in the rubrics and
                      in the prayers. Holy Transfiguration, for example, does not include
                      the series of ten prayers (from Compline and the Midnight Office). It
                      does have the sixth of the morning prayers, but not the rest. Erie
                      does not have the ten morning prayers, but does have four others
                      prayers toward the end of the prayer service. They agree in content,
                      of course, with those in the Jordanville book. The ten prayer in the
                      evening are assigned by Erie to immediately before sleep, not right
                      after the symbol of faith.

                      Come to that, if you compare the old edition of the Jordanville prayer
                      book with the current one you will find some differences in both
                      aspects--rubrics and prayers. A bit of eclecticism here won't hurt;
                      it is not a matter of right and wrong. I have seen books that add a
                      prayer of Patriarch Filaret, quite a recent addition. There is some
                      room for flexibility here. I have never seen a history of these
                      prayers; that would be interesting. But look them over for yourself;
                      I use all three, depending on occasion.

                      Stephen

                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "bimperl" <barretnc@l...> wrote:
                      > Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book?
                      > BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant
                      > differences between Jordanville and Holy Transfiguration's (Greek)
                      > prayer book, either in its rubrics or the prayers themselves?
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Noah
                      >
                    • bradley anderson
                      The Old Rite prayer book was the first prayer book my family owned -- saw it advertised in a free copy of Orthodox America I had been given, and ordered it.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 5, 2004
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                        The Old Rite prayer book was the first prayer book my
                        family owned -- saw it advertised in a free copy of
                        Orthodox America I had been given, and ordered it. My
                        wife still uses it as her primary prayer book and is
                        rather attached to it -- I've always used and liked
                        the Jordanville, but the former is really quite
                        wonderful. Fr. German Ciuba was (I understand) the
                        individual primarily responsible for the translation
                        (he was also the first Orthodox priest I ever met -- I
                        didn't know the prayer book was done by him until
                        later, though!)

                        Another wonderful piece of translating that he did
                        more recently was the Gospel Commentary (available
                        through SJKP and other places as well.) A real
                        treasure, and well worth the price.

                        --- James Morgan <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                        > Dear Noah:
                        >
                        > I have been using the Old Rite prayer book for years
                        > (right side of page
                        > only, please!)
                        > And I find it is probably the smoothest and best
                        > thought out translation
                        > available. Both Jordanville and HTM books have some
                        > clumsiness in their
                        > translations to my way of thinking.




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                      • bradley anderson
                        ... Most true, and an appropriate turn of phrase given the events of today -- the first time I (like perhaps many others) heard the phrase dust-bin of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 5, 2004
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                          --- stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...> wrote:
                          > No problem using the Old Rite prayer book; the Erie
                          > church is in
                          > ROCOR, and the idea that there is something really
                          > wrong with the Old
                          > Rite has now been pretty well relegated to the
                          > dust-bin of history

                          Most true, and an appropriate turn of phrase given the
                          events of today -- the first time I (like perhaps many
                          others) heard the phrase "dust-bin of history" was
                          when it was uttered many years ago as a (then)
                          seemingly wishful prediction about Soviet Communism by
                          Pres. Reagan...

                          > I have never seen a
                          > history of these
                          > prayers; that would be interesting.

                          This would indeed be interesting. My long-time (now
                          late) spiritual father was careful to point out that
                          morning and evening prayers are not a part of the
                          cycle of services of the church. Although he was
                          Russian and a life-long ROCOR priest, he took some
                          "Greek" skepticism to the idea of "canonizing" these
                          morning and evening prayers, stressing that these are
                          extra prayers of personal devotion. He seemed rather
                          to emphasize the services of the church themselves --
                          Compline, the hours, Midnight office, etc...

                          As Rdr. James points intimates, though, for most of
                          us, the biggest struggle is not what prayers to pray,
                          but how, and indeed, whether we pray...




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                        • bob ferrari
                          Where can you buy an old rite prayer book? I started with an older version Jordanville which was a little odd in places but I got used to it. When it wore out
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 6, 2004
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                            Where can you buy an old rite prayer book? I started with an older version
                            Jordanville which was a little odd in places but I got used to it. When it
                            wore out I bought the new one and I still stumble over the different phrases
                            in its translations. I would like to try an old rite version.
                            Thanks,
                            Paul Ferrari
                            flue@...




                            Dear Noah:

                            I have been using the Old Rite prayer book for years (right side of page
                            only, please!)
                            And I find it is probably the smoothest and best thought out translation
                            available. Both Jordanville and HTM books have some clumsiness in their
                            translations to my way of thinking.
                            For private prayer I do not pay too much attention to rubrics. I was told
                            by a priest some time ago tthat the main thing is to pray, to focus my mind
                            and heart on God, and not to get too involved in the details of how many
                            prostrations or bows or whatever. If the outward acts are concentrated on
                            they can get in the way of the interior motivations.

                            But of all the books out there the Old Rite one is the best for me. Also, a
                            much greater selection of Pre-communion prayers than the others have!

                            Rdr. James Morgan
                            Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
                            Olympia, WA

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: bimperl [mailto:barretnc@...]
                            Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 4:33 PM
                            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [ustav] Re: prostrations in morning/evening prayers

                            Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book?
                            BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant
                            differences between Jordanville and Holy Transfiguration's (Greek)
                            prayer book, either in its rubrics or the prayers themselves?

                            Thanks,
                            Noah








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                          • James Morgan
                            Light and Life has it: http://www.light-n-life.com/ Old Orthodox Prayer Book translated into English and edited by P. Simon, T. Jurewica and G. Ciuba Format:
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 7, 2004
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                              Light and Life has it:

                              http://www.light-n-life.com/

                              Old Orthodox Prayer Book
                              translated into English and edited by P. Simon, T. Jurewica and G. Ciuba

                              Format: Hardbound

                              Description:
                              The prayer book of the Old Believers as used by the Church in Russia before
                              the reforms of Patriarch Nikon in the seventeenth century. 406 pages.

                              OLDO100 $24.95

                              Rdr James Morgan
                              Olympia, WA

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: bob ferrari [mailto:flue@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 8:24 AM
                              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: prostrations in morning/evening prayers

                              Where can you buy an old rite prayer book? I started with an older version
                              Jordanville which was a little odd in places but I got used to it. When it
                              wore out I bought the new one and I still stumble over the different phrases
                              in its translations. I would like to try an old rite version.
                              Thanks,
                              Paul Ferrari
                              flue@...




                              Dear Noah:

                              I have been using the Old Rite prayer book for years (right side of page
                              only, please!)
                              And I find it is probably the smoothest and best thought out translation
                              available. Both Jordanville and HTM books have some clumsiness in their
                              translations to my way of thinking.
                              For private prayer I do not pay too much attention to rubrics. I was told
                              by a priest some time ago tthat the main thing is to pray, to focus my mind
                              and heart on God, and not to get too involved in the details of how many
                              prostrations or bows or whatever. If the outward acts are concentrated on
                              they can get in the way of the interior motivations.

                              But of all the books out there the Old Rite one is the best for me. Also, a
                              much greater selection of Pre-communion prayers than the others have!

                              Rdr. James Morgan
                              Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
                              Olympia, WA

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: bimperl [mailto:barretnc@...]
                              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 4:33 PM
                              To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [ustav] Re: prostrations in morning/evening prayers

                              Also, is there any problem with using the Old Ritualist prayer book?
                              BTW: does anyone know whether or not there are any significant
                              differences between Jordanville and Holy Transfiguration's (Greek)
                              prayer book, either in its rubrics or the prayers themselves?

                              Thanks,
                              Noah








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