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Fw: Choir Cues: Sunday of the Entry into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday) 22 March/4 April 2004

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  • Margaret Lark
    Glory to God for all things! Have cribbed this wholesale from the Palm Sunday Choir Cues Elizabeth sent out last year, so hope there won t be *too* many
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 1 6:07 AM
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      Glory to God for all things! Have cribbed this wholesale from the Palm Sunday Choir Cues Elizabeth sent out last year, so hope there won't be *too* many mistakes, plus using my usual sources of Fr. John Whiteford's site and the SJKP Liturgical Calendar. As always, corrections welcome!

      In Christ,
      Margaret Lark, missing Elizabeth more with every passing week


      USUAL DISCLAIMER: Please review these materials for typos and just plain old mistakes! My spell-checker won't catch some words that are misusages (like bare for bear).

      For this day, the Liturgical Calendar (St. John of Kronstadt Press) specifies: a service from the Triodion (3B22).

      The order for Troparia and Kontakia is for all Temples. No adjustments are necessary.

      If you have corrections, please be sure to click the "Reply to All" button to ensure all on the Choir Cues list receive the corrections in a timely fashion! :-)

      (Note from Margaret: I never realized the importance of this until I started receiving mail from individuals who apparently don't get these cues via the Ustav list. So the Reply to All button is critical, when posting corrections or additions! Thanks.)


      22 March/4 April 2004

      The Entry of the Lord into Jerusalem (Sunday of the Palms)
      Readings: Philippians 4:4-9 John 12:1-18

      HM Basil of Ancyra; St. Isaac, founder of the Dalmation Monastery at Constantinople; M Drosida (Drosis) of Antioch, and five nuns; MM Callinica and Basilissa of Rome; NM Euthymius of Mt. Athos; NMM Schema-abbess Sophia of Kiev, and her priest, Fr. Dimitry Ivanov.

      The Service is from the Triodion (service 3B22 in the SJoKP Order of Divine Services)

      Hours: Troparia: Of the Entry 1 (By raising Lazarus from the dead...), Of the Entry 2 (When we were buried with Thee ...)
      Kontakion: Of the Entry (Sitting on Thy throne in heaven ...)


      The First Antiphon, Tone 2:

      Stichos 1: I am filled with love, for the Lord will hear the voice of my supplication.
      Refrain: Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us.
      Stichos 2: For He hath inclined His ear unto me, and in my days will I call upon Him.
      Refrain: Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us.
      Stichos 3: The pangs of death have encompassed me, the perils of hades have found me.
      Refrain: Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us.
      Stichos 4: Tribulation and sorrow have I found, and I called upon the name of the Lord.
      Refrain: Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us.
      Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
      Refrain: Through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, save us.


      Second Antiphon, Tone 2:

      Stichos 1: I believed, wherefore I spake; I was humbled exceedingly.
      Refrain: O Son of God Who didst sit upon a colt, save us who sing to Thee: Alleluia.
      Stichos 2: What shall I render unto the Lord for all that He hath rendered unto me?
      Refrain. O Son of God Who didst sit upon a colt, save us who sing to Thee: Alleluia.
      Stichos 3: I will take the cup of salvation, and I will call upon the name of the Lord.
      Refrain: O Son of God Who didst sit upon a colt, save us who sing to Thee: Alleluia.
      Stichos 4: My vows unto the Lord will I pay in the presence of all His people.
      Refrain: O Son of God Who didst sit upon a colt, save us who sing to Thee: Alleluia.

      Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and
      unto the ages of ages. Amen.

      O only-begotten Son and Word of God, Who art immortal...


      Third Antiphon


      Stichos 1: O give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good, for His mercy endureth forever.
      Choir: (Troparion, Tone 1): In confirming the common Resurrection, O Christ God, Thou didst raise up Lazarus from the dead before Thy passion. Wherefore, we also, like the children bearing
      the symbols of victory, cry to Thee, the Vanquisher of death: Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

      Stichos 2: Let the house of Israel now say that He is good, for His mercy endureth forever.
      Choir: Repeat Troparion

      Stichos 3: Let the house of Aaron now say that He is good, for His mercy endureth forever.
      Choir: Repeat Troparion

      Stichos 4: Let all that fear the Lord now say that He is good, for His mercy endureth forever.
      Choir: Repeat Troparion

      The entry verse:
      Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. We have blessed you out of
      the house of the Lord. God is the Lord, and hath appeared unto us.


      (Instead of O Come let us worship . . ., we sing:)

      Troparion for Lazarus, Tone 1: By raising Lazarus from the dead before Thy passion, / Thou didst
      confirm the universal resurrection, O Christ God! / Like the children with the palms of victory, / we cry out to Thee, O Vanquisher of Death; / Hosanna in the highest! // Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!

      Glory . . .

      Troparion for the Palms, Tone 4: When we were buried with Thee in Baptism, O Christ God, / we were
      made worthy of eternal life by Thy Resurrection! / Now we praise Thee and sing: / Hosanna in the highest! // Blessed is He that cometh in the Name of the Lord!

      Both now and ever . . .

      Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6: Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on a foal on earth, O
      Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels and the songs of children who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to recall Adam!


      Trisagion


      The Prokeimenon in the 4th Tone: Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord! / God is the Lord and hath appeared unto us!

      Verse: O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, for His mercy endureth forever!


      EPISTLE Philippians (4:4-9)

      Brethren: Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with
      thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received,
      and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.


      The Alleluia in the 1st Tone (PAUSE between Alleluia and first verse)

      O sing unto the Lord a new song, for the Lord hath wrought wondrous things. (Ps. 97:1)
      Vs/: All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Ps. 97:5).


      GOSPEL (John 12:1-18)

      Jesus came to Bethany six days before the passover, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom He raised from the dead. There they made Him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with Him. Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray Him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but Me ye have not always. Much people of the Jews therefore knew
      that He was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom He had raised from the dead. But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet Him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when He had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's
      colt. These things understood not His disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things unto Him. The people therefore that was with Him when He called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. For this cause the people also met Him, for that they heard that He had done this miracle.

      Instead of "It is Truly Meet..." we sing the irmos of the ninth ode:

      Hymn to the Theotokos, Tone 4: God is the Lord and hath appeared unto us! / Make ye a feast and with gladness, come! / Let us magnify Christ with palms and branches, with hymns crying aloud: // Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord our Saviour!


      Communion Verse: Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord! / God is the Lord and hath appeared unto us! Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!


      Psalm 33


      Dismissal: "May Christ our True God, Who for our salvation deigned to ride the colt of an ass..."

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • stephen_r1937
      ... mercy endureth forever. ... O Christ God, Thou didst raise up Lazarus from the dead before Thy passion. Wherefore, we also, like the children bearing ...
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 1 10:05 AM
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        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...> wrote:


        >
        > 22 March/4 April 2004
        >
        > The Entry of the Lord into Jerusalem (Sunday of the Palms)
        > Readings: Philippians 4:4-9 John 12:1-18

        > Third Antiphon
        >
        > Stichos 1: O give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good, for His
        mercy endureth forever.
        > Choir: (Troparion, Tone 1): In confirming the common Resurrection,
        O Christ God, Thou didst raise up Lazarus from the dead before Thy
        passion. Wherefore, we also, like the children bearing
        > the symbols of victory, cry to Thee, the Vanquisher of death:
        Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.
        >
        <snip>
        >
        > (Instead of O Come let us worship . . ., we sing:)
        >
        > Troparion for Lazarus, Tone 1: By raising Lazarus from the dead
        before Thy passion, / Thou didst
        > confirm the universal resurrection, O Christ God! / Like the
        children with the palms of victory, / we cry out to Thee, O Vanquisher
        of Death; / Hosanna in the highest! // Blessed is He that cometh in
        the name of the Lord!
        >

        *Margaret, are not the above two different translations of one and the
        same troparion?*

        > Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6:
        *Automelon.*
        Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on a foal on earth, O
        > Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels and the songs of children
        who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to recall Adam!
        >
        Stephen
      • Maria Armstrong
        Stephen, Did you upload the automelon for this anywhere? maria. On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:05:40 -0000 stephen_r1937 ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 1 11:15 AM
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          Stephen,
          Did you upload the automelon for this anywhere?
          maria.

          On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:05:40 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
          writes:
          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...>
          > wrote:
          >
          >
          > >
          > > 22 March/4 April 2004
          > >
          > > The Entry of the Lord into Jerusalem (Sunday of the Palms)
          > > Readings: Philippians 4:4-9 John 12:1-18
          >
          > > Third Antiphon
          > >
          > > Stichos 1: O give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good, for His
          > mercy endureth forever.
          > > Choir: (Troparion, Tone 1): In confirming the common
          > Resurrection,
          > O Christ God, Thou didst raise up Lazarus from the dead before Thy
          > passion. Wherefore, we also, like the children bearing
          > > the symbols of victory, cry to Thee, the Vanquisher of death:
          > Hosanna in the highest; blessed is He that cometh in the name of the
          > Lord.
          > >
          > <snip>
          > >
          > > (Instead of O Come let us worship . . ., we sing:)
          > >
          > > Troparion for Lazarus, Tone 1: By raising Lazarus from the dead
          > before Thy passion, / Thou didst
          > > confirm the universal resurrection, O Christ God! / Like the
          > children with the palms of victory, / we cry out to Thee, O
          > Vanquisher
          > of Death; / Hosanna in the highest! // Blessed is He that cometh in
          > the name of the Lord!
          > >
          >
          > *Margaret, are not the above two different translations of one and
          > the
          > same troparion?*
          >
          > > Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6:
          > *Automelon.*
          > Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on a foal on earth, O
          > > Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels and the songs of
          > children
          > who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to recall Adam!
          > >
          > Stephen


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        • Margaret Lark
          Glory to God for all things! Stephen wrote: *Margaret, are not the above two different translations of one and the same troparion?* Just trying to make sure
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 1 11:49 AM
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            Glory to God for all things! Stephen wrote:

            *Margaret, are not the above two different translations of one and the
            same troparion?*



            Just trying to make sure everyone was awake, Stephen.

            And if they were, it was a nice change from my state, which was obviously NOT awake.... Of course, they are the same Troparion. Not sure why it appears in two different translations, but then, I'm just bumbling along here anyway.

            BTW, you folks don't seriously expect a Choir Cues for the Annunciation, do you?? I don't recall that Elizabeth ever put one out, and, neophyte that I am, that's WAY outta my league.

            In Christ,
            Margaret

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • stephen_r1937
            Hello, Maria, Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic and in alto clef, in two versions. It s an easy, lesser-chant melody. I will upload to files
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 1 7:07 PM
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              Hello, Maria,

              Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic and in alto clef,
              in two versions. It's an easy, lesser-chant melody. I will upload to
              files elsewhere if there is interest.

              Stephen

              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@j...> wrote:
              > Stephen,
              > Did you upload the automelon for this anywhere?
              > maria.
              >
              > On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:05:40 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...>
              > writes:
              > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > > Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6:
              > > *Automelon.*
              > > Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on a foal on earth, O
              > > > Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels and the songs of
              > > children
              > > who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to recall Adam!
              > > >

              >
            • Maria Armstrong
              I noticed! Thank you! Hope to be able to put the english text to it and sing it this weekend! maria. On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:07:55 -0000 stephen_r1937
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 1 7:50 PM
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                I noticed! Thank you! Hope to be able to put the english text to it and
                sing it this weekend!
                maria.

                On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:07:55 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
                writes:
                > Hello, Maria,
                >
                > Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic and in alto
                > clef,
                > in two versions. It's an easy, lesser-chant melody. I will upload
                > to
                > files elsewhere if there is interest.
                >
                > Stephen


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              • psomalis@hol.gr
                Why use alto clef? Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited knowledge of european music I read only the tremble and bass clef. How do I change the alto one?
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 1 9:59 PM
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                  Why use alto clef?
                  Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited knowledge of "european music" I read
                  only the tremble and bass clef.
                  How do I change the alto one?
                  Panagiotis
                  (these olives are just delicious!)

                  Αρχικό μήνυμα από stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...>:

                  > Hello, Maria,
                  >
                  > Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic and in alto clef,
                  > in two versions. It's an easy, lesser-chant melody. I will upload to
                  > files elsewhere if there is interest.
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                  > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Maria Armstrong <aaron-maria@j...> wrote:
                  > > Stephen,
                  > > Did you upload the automelon for this anywhere?
                  > > maria.
                  > >
                  > > On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:05:40 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...>
                  > > writes:
                  > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6:
                  > > > *Automelon.*
                  > > > Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on a foal on earth, O
                  > > > > Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels and the songs of
                  > > > children
                  > > > who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to recall Adam!
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                  >
                  > More ustav information and service texts:
                  > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                  > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • bradley anderson
                  The arrow on any movable clef points at middle C. I don t like alto clef myself, because my choir can t read it, and I have to reset anything put into it. The
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 2 1:15 AM
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                    The arrow on any movable clef points at middle C. I
                    don't like alto clef myself, because my choir can't
                    read it, and I have to reset anything put into it.
                    The advantage is that one can more easily keep all the
                    notes on the staff.

                    --- psomalis@... wrote:
                    > Why use alto clef?
                    > Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited knowledge
                    > of "european music" I read
                    > only the tremble and bass clef.
                    > How do I change the alto one?
                    > Panagiotis
                    > (these olives are just delicious!)
                    >
                    > ?? ���?��� stephen_r1937
                    > <stephen.r@...>:
                    >
                    > > Hello, Maria,
                    > >
                    > > Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic
                    > and in alto clef,
                    > > in two versions. It's an easy, lesser-chant
                    > melody. I will upload to
                    > > files elsewhere if there is interest.
                    > >
                    > > Stephen
                    > >
                    > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, Maria Armstrong
                    > <aaron-maria@j...> wrote:
                    > > > Stephen,
                    > > > Did you upload the automelon for this anywhere?
                    > > > maria.
                    > > >
                    > > > On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:05:40 -0000
                    > "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...>
                    > > > writes:
                    > > > > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Margaret Lark"
                    > <skovranok@t...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > Kontakion for the Entry, Tone 6:
                    > > > > *Automelon.*
                    > > > > Sitting on Thy throne in heaven, / carried on
                    > a foal on earth, O
                    > > > > > Christ God! / Accept the praise of angels
                    > and the songs of
                    > > > > children
                    > > > > who sing: // Blessed is He that cometh to
                    > recall Adam!
                    > > > > >
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > > URL to archives:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                    > >
                    > > More ustav information and service texts:
                    > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                    > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                    >
                    >
                    > More ustav information and service texts:
                    > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                    > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    > ustav-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • stephen_r1937
                    Alto clef is standard with the Kievan notation, in which the sources were written. It s very easy; it s a C clef, as treble is a G clef and bass an F clef.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 2 6:34 AM
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                      Alto clef is standard with the Kievan notation, in which the sources
                      were written. It's very easy; it's a C clef, as treble is a G clef
                      and bass an F clef. The alto clef places the C on the middle line of
                      the staff, so that is _do_ (or _ni_ if you want to do it Greek style).
                      You can simply change it to treble with two flats and keep the notes
                      where they are to replicate the tonal relations; but the Znamenny
                      scale in this case will flat the upper _e_ only; the lower is natural.

                      All these clefs were formerly moveable, and the C clef, the least used
                      nowadays, still is to some extent. Soprano clef is the C clef with
                      the C on the bottom line. Older sources in Kievan notation could
                      place the clef on other lines than the middle; the more recent ones
                      fix it on the middle line, that is, they use only the alto clef.

                      Our peasant cantors up in the Carpathians used these clefs. They are
                      the real heroes of the story, of course. They would have found
                      psaltic neumation baffling; I'm now sitting in at practice sessions at
                      my "local" (about 10 miles away) Greek parish, to learn what I can.

                      I am enjoying the olives here; we can get good ones nowadays. There
                      is still a problem with olive oil; it's sold mostly in transparent
                      bottles. I suppose it's because we are conditioned to think of it as
                      bland, so people don't notice. I have to shop around to find a good
                      oil in an opaque bottle.

                      Stephen

                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, psomalis@h... wrote:
                      > Why use alto clef?
                      > Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited knowledge of "european
                      music" I read
                      > only the tremble and bass clef.
                      > How do I change the alto one?
                      > Panagiotis
                      > (these olives are just delicious!)
                      >
                      > Áñ÷éêü ìÞíõìá áðü stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@l...>:
                      >
                      > > Hello, Maria,
                      > >
                      > > Just uploaded it to the Podoben group, in Slavonic and in alto clef,
                      > > in two versions. It's an easy, lesser-chant melody. I will upload to
                      > > files elsewhere if there is interest.
                      > >
                    • stephen_r1937
                      The official chant books of the Russian church use the Kievan notation with alto clef. The Podoben list is only indirectly of direct practical application; we
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2 6:39 AM
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                        The official chant books of the Russian church use the Kievan notation
                        with alto clef. The Podoben list is only indirectly of direct
                        practical application; we are now doing more historical documentation.
                        But it is not at all hard to learn alto clef. If you want to get
                        the choir to learn it, give them a choice between that and kriuki :).

                        Stephen

                        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > The arrow on any movable clef points at middle C. I
                        > don't like alto clef myself, because my choir can't
                        > read it, and I have to reset anything put into it.
                        > The advantage is that one can more easily keep all the
                        > notes on the staff.
                        >
                        > --- psomalis@h... wrote:
                        > > Why use alto clef?
                        > > Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited knowledge
                        > > of "european music" I read
                        > > only the tremble and bass clef.
                        > > How do I change the alto one?
                        > > Panagiotis
                        > > (these olives are just delicious!)
                        > >
                      • bradley anderson
                        By no means was I criticizing the posting of material on the podoben list in alto clef. For my purposes, I m having to reset these melodies to English anyway,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2 10:11 AM
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                          By no means was I criticizing the posting of material
                          on the podoben list in alto clef. For my purposes,
                          I'm having to reset these melodies to English anyway,
                          and the alto clef poses no problem... and even if it
                          was, the documentation is of course the primary focus.
                          What I meant by "not liking" alto clef was that for
                          music that is intended to be of practical use, I think
                          that using alto clef is an impediment to broader
                          dissemination of melodies, at least amongst
                          English-singing choirs here in America.

                          I'm just "along for the ride." I just hope the
                          experts on the list don't mind me poking a little, as
                          with this one, to spur you to post more melodies!

                          When I get done setting the kontakion to the second
                          melody, I'll probably run it by you, Stephen, for your
                          comments...

                          Question, though -- do you see a musical problem with
                          omitting the repetition of the final phrase?

                          --- stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...> wrote:
                          > The official chant books of the Russian church use
                          > the Kievan notation
                          > with alto clef. The Podoben list is only indirectly
                          > of direct
                          > practical application; we are now doing more
                          > historical documentation.
                          > But it is not at all hard to learn alto clef. If
                          > you want to get
                          > the choir to learn it, give them a choice between
                          > that and kriuki :).
                          >
                          > Stephen
                          >
                          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson
                          > <andersonbradley@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > The arrow on any movable clef points at middle C.
                          > I
                          > > don't like alto clef myself, because my choir
                          > can't
                          > > read it, and I have to reset anything put into it.
                          >
                          > > The advantage is that one can more easily keep all
                          > the
                          > > notes on the staff.
                          > >
                          > > --- psomalis@h... wrote:
                          > > > Why use alto clef?
                          > > > Being a Greek peasant cantor with limited
                          > knowledge
                          > > > of "european music" I read
                          > > > only the tremble and bass clef.
                          > > > How do I change the alto one?
                          > > > Panagiotis
                          > > > (these olives are just delicious!)
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • stephen_r1937
                          And I didn t take is such either; I fully expect that the average choir will not know an alto clef from an andiron, and that if they are confronted with it
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 2 11:57 AM
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                            And I didn't take is such either; I fully expect that the average
                            choir will not know an alto clef from an andiron, and that if they are
                            confronted with it someone will act as though it were a saw-scaled
                            viper. I will happily go through the little exercise of substituting
                            treble for anyone who can't do it for him/herself, a category to which
                            you do not belong. I expect that at least after such a piece is
                            trebled the director will transpose, harmonize, etc. however he/she
                            likes. There is no copyright on these things. I don't see a musical
                            problem with not repeating the last phrase; that way there will be one
                            less phrase among the repeaters, but that is hardly a major problem.

                            I am pleased when I can supply something of use to our church singers.
                            In the podoben list I will continue to stick as close to the source as
                            I can, and I am aware that that is not always convenient for practical
                            application. The regent, however, should learn the Kievan notation,
                            if only to gain access to the collections published by the Holy Synod
                            from 1777 to the early 20th century, to _Sputnik Psalmoshchika_, and
                            other such sources. It doesn't have a steep learning curve.

                            Yes, by all means let me see your setting. You might consider posting
                            it to one or another of these lists.

                            Stephen

                            --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > By no means was I criticizing the posting of material
                            > on the podoben list in alto clef. For my purposes,
                            > I'm having to reset these melodies to English anyway,
                            > and the alto clef poses no problem... and even if it
                            > was, the documentation is of course the primary focus.
                            > What I meant by "not liking" alto clef was that for
                            > music that is intended to be of practical use, I think
                            > that using alto clef is an impediment to broader
                            > dissemination of melodies, at least amongst
                            > English-singing choirs here in America.
                            >
                            > I'm just "along for the ride." I just hope the
                            > experts on the list don't mind me poking a little, as
                            > with this one, to spur you to post more melodies!
                            >
                            > When I get done setting the kontakion to the second
                            > melody, I'll probably run it by you, Stephen, for your
                            > comments...
                            >
                            > Question, though -- do you see a musical problem with
                            > omitting the repetition of the final phrase?
                            >
                          • Maria Armstrong
                            Bradley, Maybe you can send mine as a pdf as well to Stephen? I actually like the repetition at the end, by the way. Also, personally, I do not plan on
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 2 2:00 PM
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                              Bradley,
                              Maybe you can send mine as a pdf as well to Stephen?
                              I actually like the repetition at the end, by the way.

                              Also, personally, I do not plan on trebling it, it seems easy enough to
                              learn to sing from alto. You hear the melody and remember the intervals.
                              If anything, it would be good for some in our choir who cannot sing
                              anything other than in the written key. You can imagine the problems that
                              sometimes arise from this, lol.

                              Regarding Kievan square notation, I am learning but it is tiring because
                              everything looks so busy on the papers I have.
                              maria.

                              On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:57:22 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
                              writes:
                              > And I didn't take is such either; I fully expect that the average
                              > choir will not know an alto clef from an andiron, and that if they
                              > are
                              > confronted with it someone will act as though it were a saw-scaled
                              > viper. I will happily go through the little exercise of
                              > substituting
                              > treble for anyone who can't do it for him/herself, a category to
                              > which
                              > you do not belong. I expect that at least after such a piece is
                              > trebled the director will transpose, harmonize, etc. however he/she
                              > likes. There is no copyright on these things. I don't see a
                              > musical
                              > problem with not repeating the last phrase; that way there will be
                              > one
                              > less phrase among the repeaters, but that is hardly a major problem.
                              >
                              >
                              > I am pleased when I can supply something of use to our church
                              > singers.
                              > In the podoben list I will continue to stick as close to the source
                              > as
                              > I can, and I am aware that that is not always convenient for
                              > practical
                              > application. The regent, however, should learn the Kievan
                              > notation,
                              > if only to gain access to the collections published by the Holy
                              > Synod
                              > from 1777 to the early 20th century, to _Sputnik Psalmoshchika_,
                              > and
                              > other such sources. It doesn't have a steep learning curve.
                              >
                              > Yes, by all means let me see your setting. You might consider
                              > posting
                              > it to one or another of these lists.
                              >
                              > Stephen


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