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RE: [ustav] Re: Choir Cues: Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee 19 January / 1 February

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  • P.Somalis
    The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an Ikos. In Greece
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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      The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two
      kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an
      Ikos.
      In Greece practice if we chant the Kontakion of that Sunday the 1st one
      is always used.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Maria Armstrong [mailto:aaron-maria@...]
      Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 6:55 PM
      To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: ustav@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Choir Cues: Sunday of the Publican and the
      Pharisee 19 January / 1 February

      Dear Stephen,
      The kontakion of the Publican and Pharisee is in tone 4 in my sources.
      Is
      this a mistake?
      maria

      On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:30:33 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
      writes:
      > > Both Now . . . .
      > >
      > > Kontakion of the Publican and Pharisee
      > > Tone 3
      >
      > *Special melody: Today the Virgin*


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    • stephen_r1937
      As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the Triodion, `Let us flee from the proud speaking of the Pharisee , is Tone 4, special melody `Thou hast appeared
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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        As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the Triodion, `Let us flee
        from the proud speaking of the Pharisee', is Tone 4, special melody
        `Thou hast appeared today', and the second, `As the Publican let us
        bring cries of sorrow', is Tone 3, special melody `Today the Virgin'.
        I don't have the service to St Mark of Ephesis, so I cannot provide
        the tone of the Canon (the Beatitudes) or the special melodies, if
        any, of the troparia and kontakia.

        Stephen

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "P.Somalis" <psomalis@h...> wrote:
        > The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two
        > kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an
        > Ikos.
        > In Greece practice if we chant the Kontakion of that Sunday the 1st one
        > is always used.
        >
        >
      • bradley anderson
        ... 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits the
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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          --- stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...> wrote:
          > As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the
          > Triodion, `Let us flee
          > from the proud speaking of the Pharisee', is Tone 4,
          > special melody
          > `Thou hast appeared today', and the second, `As the
          > Publican let us
          > bring cries of sorrow', is Tone 3, special melody
          > `Today the Virgin'.
          > I don't have the service to St Mark of Ephesis, so
          > I cannot provide
          > the tone of the Canon (the Beatitudes) or the
          > special melodies, if
          > any, of the troparia and kontakia.
          >

          1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but
          in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion
          translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits the special
          melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion
          this week), for those of us without access to a Greek
          or Slavonic Triodion, are there resources that can
          help in knowing where special melodies are used? If
          there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek
          Triodion?

          2. I seem to remember a discussion on this site
          regarding the variations in Russian practice regarding
          the veneration of the Gospel at Matins (placed on an
          analogion vs held by the priest, if on an analogion,
          how long it remains out on it, etc...) I can't seem
          to find this in the archives via a search. Can anyone
          point me in the right direction or give a concise
          summary?


          Bradley (Edward) Anderson

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        • Cezar Login
          Dear Bradley, 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Dear Bradley,


            1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with
            materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits
            the special melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion this week),
            for those of us without access to a Greek or Slavonic Triodion, are there
            resources that can help in knowing where special melodies are used?



            CL: One book in which you can find this, is the sabbaite Typikon, in its
            Slavonic and Romanian editions.



            If there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek Triodion?



            CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek service books, at the
            following addres http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But these
            texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with the Slavonic and Romanian
            texts, there are some differences, especially for the Great Octoechos, and
            for the Menaion.



            2. I seem to remember a discussion on this site regarding the variations in
            Russian practice regarding the veneration of the Gospel at Matins (placed on
            an analogion vs held by the priest, if on an analogion, how long it remains
            out on it, etc...) I can't seem to find this in the archives via a search.
            Can anyone point me in the right direction or give a concise summary?



            CL: In the Sabbaite Typikon (Romanian edition) it is indicated that during
            the "Seeing the Resurrection of Christ." and Ps. 50, the priest came out
            with the Gospel Book and put it on an analogion. It remains there until all
            the people venerate It. After this, the pries bless the people with the
            Gospel, and return it to the Altar, on the Holy Table.

            However, in the actual edition of the Romanian Ieratikon, it is indicated to
            live the Gospel on the analogion until the end of the Great Doxology, when
            It is returned to the Altar by the priest.

            Note: In an older of the Romanian Ieratikon, and I believe in the Greek
            practice, while singing/reading "Seeing the Resurrection of Christ." the
            priest keep the Gospel book on his hand between the Royal Gates, with the
            Resurrection face to the people, and when arriving at the middle of Ps. 50
            (. for see, You have loved truth.), he came out and put the Gospel on the
            analogion. You can find some reference about the Greek practice at the
            following address: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/mat-sun.htm (there is
            complete description of both the Greek and the athonite practice).



            Cezar








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          • stephen_r1937
            ... with ... (which omits ... this week), ... there ... in its ... the ... these ... Romanian ... Octoechos, and ... Yes, some Menaion services are not to be
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2004
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              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Cezar Login" <cezarcl@x> wrote:
              > Dear Bradley,
              >
              >
              > 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing
              with
              > materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos
              (which omits
              > the special melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion
              this week),
              > for those of us without access to a Greek or Slavonic Triodion, are
              there
              > resources that can help in knowing where special melodies are used?
              >
              >
              >
              > CL: One book in which you can find this, is the sabbaite Typikon,
              in its
              > Slavonic and Romanian editions.
              >
              >
              >
              > If there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek Triodion?
              >
              >
              >
              > CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek service books, at
              the
              > following addres http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But
              these
              > texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with the Slavonic and
              Romanian
              > texts, there are some differences, especially for the Great
              Octoechos, and
              > for the Menaion.
              >
              Yes, some Menaion services are not to be found because some other
              saint was chosen for that day. Fortunately, Greek liturgical books,
              unlike Slavonic, are fairly inexpensive; the down side is that they
              often leave much to be desired in editing. Apotoliki Diakonia
              publishes liturgical books, and two other name of publishers that
              come to mind are Phos and Astir. Maybe one of our Greek colleagues
              in this forum could give some advice about the best editions. The on-
              line version, in the meantime, should prove useful; you can also get
              it on a CD.

              But even the liturgical books themselves cannot be entirely relied on
              to identify all special melodies. There are several reasons for
              this: for one thing, they sometimes note only the first of series of
              prosomia. Then when you reach the end of the series , if the
              following item is in the same tone, there is no indication that it is
              not also a prosomion. Sometimes one has to look at the Greek text to
              see if the metrical pattern is that of the special melody. And
              sometimes they just don't mention it at all; many Menaia ignore the
              special melody 'The Forerunner beheld our Enlightnment' at Theophany,
              for example. So we really need more work on this problem, and we
              need to urge publishers to have someone edit the books and clearly
              mark all prosomia.

              Stephen
            • bradley anderson
              ... Many thanks for this link. I had seen this website before, had thought that it was only the Menaion, and hadn t thought of it as a way to access
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- Cezar Login <cezarcl@...> wrote:
                > CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek
                > service books, at the
                > following addres
                > http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But
                > these
                > texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with
                > the Slavonic and Romanian
                > texts, there are some differences, especially for
                > the Great Octoechos, and
                > for the Menaion.
                >

                Many thanks for this link. I had seen this website
                before, had thought that it was only the Menaion, and
                hadn't thought of it as a way to access information on
                special melodies. I'm covered, at least until I run
                into a special melody name I don't recognize...

                Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service
                books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                wall...?"

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              • Cezar Login
                Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service books do I find the text for In thee we have a
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at Liturgy on the Meatfare
                  Saturday, where in the service books do I find the text for "In thee we have
                  a
                  wall...?"

                  CL: If you are talking about the troparion of the Theotokos on the Meatfare
                  Saturday, in the Romanian Triodion is to be found at the end of the Vesper.
                  I can give you the Romanian and the Greek text, as well the Slavonic one,
                  and I may even tempt to translate it into English, but I'm not very good in
                  liturgical English.



                  Cezar

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                  Pentru a inlatura efectele nedorite si din dorinta de a va oferi in
                  permanenta servicii de cea mai buna calitate msajele detectate ca fiind
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                  este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer:
                  RAV Antivirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. In
                  order to remove unwanted effects and to continuously provide quality
                  services all infected e-mails will be automatically deleted .Please be aware
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                • Sergius Miller
                  ... Bradley, See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: We have Thee as a wall and a have.... Sergius
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >>
                    > Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                    > Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service
                    > books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                    > wall...?"

                    Bradley,
                    See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: "We have Thee as a wall and a
                    have...."

                    Sergius
                    >
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                  • bradley anderson
                    Thanks, I figured it was in the Pannikhida service somewhere, I just couldn t find it last night when I was looking for it for some reason. I ll look again in
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      Thanks, I figured it was in the Pannikhida service
                      somewhere, I just couldn't find it last night when I
                      was looking for it for some reason. I'll look again
                      in both Hapgood and my ROCOR Pannikhida translation (I
                      use the OCA/Hapgood at church, but I don't have one of
                      the books at home.
                      --- Sergius Miller <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson
                      > <andersonbradley@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >>
                      > > Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                      > > Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the
                      > service
                      > > books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                      > > wall...?"
                      >
                      > Bradley,
                      > See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: "We have
                      > Thee as a wall and a
                      > have...."
                      >
                      > Sergius
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________
                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
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                      >
                      >


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                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... JRS: Here is the Hapgood translation: Thee we have as a Wall and a Defence, and a Mediatrix well-pleasing unto God, Whom thou hast borne, O Virgin
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                        Regarding:

                        > I'll look again
                        > in both Hapgood and my ROCOR Pannikhida translation (I
                        > use the OCA/Hapgood at church, but I don't have one of
                        > the books at home.

                        JRS: Here is the Hapgood translation:

                        "Thee we have as a Wall and a Defence, and a Mediatrix well-pleasing
                        unto God, Whom thou hast borne, O Virgin birthgiver of God, the
                        salvation of the faithful".

                        OCA Pannikhida book (Fr. Soroka):

                        "We have Thee as a wall and a Haven, and an intercessor well-pleasing
                        unto God, whom thou hast borne, O Virgin Birthgiver of God, the
                        Salvation of the Faithful".

                        Fr. Lawrence (Jordanville):

                        "In thee we have a wall and a haven, and an intercessor acceptable to
                        God, Whom thou didst bear, O Theotokos unwedded, salvation of the
                        faithful".

                        Hope this helps--

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
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