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Re: Choir Cues: Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee 19 January / 1 February

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  • Fr. John Whiteford
    The Slavonic Typikon only mentions the other Kontakion, but this is what is referenced in the Jordanville Calendar, and in the Velikij Sbornik, both kontakia
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 31, 2004
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      The Slavonic Typikon only mentions the other Kontakion, but this is
      what is referenced in the Jordanville Calendar, and in the Velikij
      Sbornik, both kontakia are found after Ode 3, just as they are found
      in the English Triodion.

      -Fr. John Whiteford

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...> wrote:
      > The J-ville calendar indicates that the tone 4 Kondak (the first
      one)
      > is used at Liturgy...
      >
      > that's also appointed for the Hours.
      >
    • P.Somalis
      The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an Ikos. In Greece
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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        The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two
        kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an
        Ikos.
        In Greece practice if we chant the Kontakion of that Sunday the 1st one
        is always used.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Maria Armstrong [mailto:aaron-maria@...]
        Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 6:55 PM
        To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: ustav@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ustav] Re: Choir Cues: Sunday of the Publican and the
        Pharisee 19 January / 1 February

        Dear Stephen,
        The kontakion of the Publican and Pharisee is in tone 4 in my sources.
        Is
        this a mistake?
        maria

        On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 14:30:33 -0000 "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
        writes:
        > > Both Now . . . .
        > >
        > > Kontakion of the Publican and Pharisee
        > > Tone 3
        >
        > *Special melody: Today the Virgin*


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      • stephen_r1937
        As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the Triodion, `Let us flee from the proud speaking of the Pharisee , is Tone 4, special melody `Thou hast appeared
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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          As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the Triodion, `Let us flee
          from the proud speaking of the Pharisee', is Tone 4, special melody
          `Thou hast appeared today', and the second, `As the Publican let us
          bring cries of sorrow', is Tone 3, special melody `Today the Virgin'.
          I don't have the service to St Mark of Ephesis, so I cannot provide
          the tone of the Canon (the Beatitudes) or the special melodies, if
          any, of the troparia and kontakia.

          Stephen

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "P.Somalis" <psomalis@h...> wrote:
          > The Triodion after the 6th ode (at least the Greek one) gives two
          > kontakia: one in tone IV and one in tone III; the last one has also an
          > Ikos.
          > In Greece practice if we chant the Kontakion of that Sunday the 1st one
          > is always used.
          >
          >
        • bradley anderson
          ... 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits the
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 1, 2004
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            --- stephen_r1937 <stephen.r@...> wrote:
            > As Maria says, the first Kontakion from the
            > Triodion, `Let us flee
            > from the proud speaking of the Pharisee', is Tone 4,
            > special melody
            > `Thou hast appeared today', and the second, `As the
            > Publican let us
            > bring cries of sorrow', is Tone 3, special melody
            > `Today the Virgin'.
            > I don't have the service to St Mark of Ephesis, so
            > I cannot provide
            > the tone of the Canon (the Beatitudes) or the
            > special melodies, if
            > any, of the troparia and kontakia.
            >

            1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but
            in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion
            translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits the special
            melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion
            this week), for those of us without access to a Greek
            or Slavonic Triodion, are there resources that can
            help in knowing where special melodies are used? If
            there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek
            Triodion?

            2. I seem to remember a discussion on this site
            regarding the variations in Russian practice regarding
            the veneration of the Gospel at Matins (placed on an
            analogion vs held by the priest, if on an analogion,
            how long it remains out on it, etc...) I can't seem
            to find this in the archives via a search. Can anyone
            point me in the right direction or give a concise
            summary?


            Bradley (Edward) Anderson

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          • Cezar Login
            Dear Bradley, 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 2, 2004
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              Dear Bradley,


              1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing with
              materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos (which omits
              the special melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion this week),
              for those of us without access to a Greek or Slavonic Triodion, are there
              resources that can help in knowing where special melodies are used?



              CL: One book in which you can find this, is the sabbaite Typikon, in its
              Slavonic and Romanian editions.



              If there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek Triodion?



              CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek service books, at the
              following addres http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But these
              texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with the Slavonic and Romanian
              texts, there are some differences, especially for the Great Octoechos, and
              for the Menaion.



              2. I seem to remember a discussion on this site regarding the variations in
              Russian practice regarding the veneration of the Gospel at Matins (placed on
              an analogion vs held by the priest, if on an analogion, how long it remains
              out on it, etc...) I can't seem to find this in the archives via a search.
              Can anyone point me in the right direction or give a concise summary?



              CL: In the Sabbaite Typikon (Romanian edition) it is indicated that during
              the "Seeing the Resurrection of Christ." and Ps. 50, the priest came out
              with the Gospel Book and put it on an analogion. It remains there until all
              the people venerate It. After this, the pries bless the people with the
              Gospel, and return it to the Altar, on the Holy Table.

              However, in the actual edition of the Romanian Ieratikon, it is indicated to
              live the Gospel on the analogion until the end of the Great Doxology, when
              It is returned to the Altar by the priest.

              Note: In an older of the Romanian Ieratikon, and I believe in the Greek
              practice, while singing/reading "Seeing the Resurrection of Christ." the
              priest keep the Gospel book on his hand between the Royal Gates, with the
              Resurrection face to the people, and when arriving at the middle of Ps. 50
              (. for see, You have loved truth.), he came out and put the Gospel on the
              analogion. You can find some reference about the Greek practice at the
              following address: http://www.anastasis.org.uk/mat-sun.htm (there is
              complete description of both the Greek and the athonite practice).



              Cezar








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            • stephen_r1937
              ... with ... (which omits ... this week), ... there ... in its ... the ... these ... Romanian ... Octoechos, and ... Yes, some Menaion services are not to be
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 2, 2004
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                --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Cezar Login" <cezarcl@x> wrote:
                > Dear Bradley,
                >
                >
                > 1. Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but in dealing
                with
                > materials from the Lenten Triodion translation of Bp. Kallistos
                (which omits
                > the special melodies frequently, as in the case of the Kontakion
                this week),
                > for those of us without access to a Greek or Slavonic Triodion, are
                there
                > resources that can help in knowing where special melodies are used?
                >
                >
                >
                > CL: One book in which you can find this, is the sabbaite Typikon,
                in its
                > Slavonic and Romanian editions.
                >
                >
                >
                > If there is no other way, where can one purchase a Greek Triodion?
                >
                >
                >
                > CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek service books, at
                the
                > following addres http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But
                these
                > texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with the Slavonic and
                Romanian
                > texts, there are some differences, especially for the Great
                Octoechos, and
                > for the Menaion.
                >
                Yes, some Menaion services are not to be found because some other
                saint was chosen for that day. Fortunately, Greek liturgical books,
                unlike Slavonic, are fairly inexpensive; the down side is that they
                often leave much to be desired in editing. Apotoliki Diakonia
                publishes liturgical books, and two other name of publishers that
                come to mind are Phos and Astir. Maybe one of our Greek colleagues
                in this forum could give some advice about the best editions. The on-
                line version, in the meantime, should prove useful; you can also get
                it on a CD.

                But even the liturgical books themselves cannot be entirely relied on
                to identify all special melodies. There are several reasons for
                this: for one thing, they sometimes note only the first of series of
                prosomia. Then when you reach the end of the series , if the
                following item is in the same tone, there is no indication that it is
                not also a prosomion. Sometimes one has to look at the Greek text to
                see if the metrical pattern is that of the special melody. And
                sometimes they just don't mention it at all; many Menaia ignore the
                special melody 'The Forerunner beheld our Enlightnment' at Theophany,
                for example. So we really need more work on this problem, and we
                need to urge publishers to have someone edit the books and clearly
                mark all prosomia.

                Stephen
              • bradley anderson
                ... Many thanks for this link. I had seen this website before, had thought that it was only the Menaion, and hadn t thought of it as a way to access
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  --- Cezar Login <cezarcl@...> wrote:
                  > CL: You can find the entire text of all the greek
                  > service books, at the
                  > following addres
                  > http://www.qub.ac.uk/ibs/glt/Greek_Texts.htm But
                  > these
                  > texts are a newer edition, and in comparison with
                  > the Slavonic and Romanian
                  > texts, there are some differences, especially for
                  > the Great Octoechos, and
                  > for the Menaion.
                  >

                  Many thanks for this link. I had seen this website
                  before, had thought that it was only the Menaion, and
                  hadn't thought of it as a way to access information on
                  special melodies. I'm covered, at least until I run
                  into a special melody name I don't recognize...

                  Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                  Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service
                  books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                  wall...?"

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                • Cezar Login
                  Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service books do I find the text for In thee we have a
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at Liturgy on the Meatfare
                    Saturday, where in the service books do I find the text for "In thee we have
                    a
                    wall...?"

                    CL: If you are talking about the troparion of the Theotokos on the Meatfare
                    Saturday, in the Romanian Triodion is to be found at the end of the Vesper.
                    I can give you the Romanian and the Greek text, as well the Slavonic one,
                    and I may even tempt to translate it into English, but I'm not very good in
                    liturgical English.



                    Cezar

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                    Pentru a inlatura efectele nedorite si din dorinta de a va oferi in
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                    este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer:
                    RAV Antivirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. In
                    order to remove unwanted effects and to continuously provide quality
                    services all infected e-mails will be automatically deleted .Please be aware
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                  • Sergius Miller
                    ... Bradley, See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: We have Thee as a wall and a have.... Sergius
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson <andersonbradley@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >>
                      > Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                      > Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the service
                      > books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                      > wall...?"

                      Bradley,
                      See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: "We have Thee as a wall and a
                      have...."

                      Sergius
                      >
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                    • bradley anderson
                      Thanks, I figured it was in the Pannikhida service somewhere, I just couldn t find it last night when I was looking for it for some reason. I ll look again in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                        Thanks, I figured it was in the Pannikhida service
                        somewhere, I just couldn't find it last night when I
                        was looking for it for some reason. I'll look again
                        in both Hapgood and my ROCOR Pannikhida translation (I
                        use the OCA/Hapgood at church, but I don't have one of
                        the books at home.
                        --- Sergius Miller <srbmillerr@...> wrote:
                        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, bradley anderson
                        > <andersonbradley@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >>
                        > > Another question -- for the troparia/kontakia at
                        > > Liturgy on the Meatfare Saturday, where in the
                        > service
                        > > books do I find the text for "In thee we have a
                        > > wall...?"
                        >
                        > Bradley,
                        > See p.11 of the OCA Panikhida booklet: "We have
                        > Thee as a wall and a
                        > have...."
                        >
                        > Sergius
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________
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                        > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool.
                        > Try it!
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                        >
                        >


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                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        ... JRS: Here is the Hapgood translation: Thee we have as a Wall and a Defence, and a Mediatrix well-pleasing unto God, Whom thou hast borne, O Virgin
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 3, 2004
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                          Regarding:

                          > I'll look again
                          > in both Hapgood and my ROCOR Pannikhida translation (I
                          > use the OCA/Hapgood at church, but I don't have one of
                          > the books at home.

                          JRS: Here is the Hapgood translation:

                          "Thee we have as a Wall and a Defence, and a Mediatrix well-pleasing
                          unto God, Whom thou hast borne, O Virgin birthgiver of God, the
                          salvation of the faithful".

                          OCA Pannikhida book (Fr. Soroka):

                          "We have Thee as a wall and a Haven, and an intercessor well-pleasing
                          unto God, whom thou hast borne, O Virgin Birthgiver of God, the
                          Salvation of the Faithful".

                          Fr. Lawrence (Jordanville):

                          "In thee we have a wall and a haven, and an intercessor acceptable to
                          God, Whom thou didst bear, O Theotokos unwedded, salvation of the
                          faithful".

                          Hope this helps--

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw
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