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Re: "[unknown]"

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  • stephen_r1937
    Thanks, Nikita. This is more or less what I expected. The Erie prayer book introduced this hymn with the rubric: . . . the reader says , and prescribes
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
      Thanks, Nikita. This is more or less what I expected. The Erie
      prayer book introduced this hymn with the rubric: ". . . the reader
      says", and prescribes the bows at the first three verses instead of
      at the "Blessed art thou" verses.

      _Oko Tserkovnoe_ represents the Sabaitic Typikon as originally
      adopted and adapted in Muscovy. As Uspensky says, a lot of customs
      antedating the Sabaitic Typikon were combined with it. Western Rus',
      then neither part of the Muscovite realm nor ecclesiastically within
      the jursidiction of the Metropolitan, later Patriarch, resident in
      Moscow, likewise received the Sabaitic Typikon only in a manner that
      preserved many earlier customs; but this was not done in just the
      same way as in Muscovy. The Stoglav was never in effect there. What
      I am proposing as a working hypothesis is that singing "Vouchsafe"
      (and "Lord, now lettest thou depart") at Great Vespers are
      characteristic of this synthesis as it emerged in Western Rus'--the
      pre-Nikonian elements are not identical in the two regions. So in
      the Russian tradition singing "Vouchsafe, O Lord" may represent
      influence from the pre-Nikonian tradition of Western Rus', but is not
      a de-Nikonianization in terms of indigenous Russian practice.

      Once the New-Rite Typikon is translated (how is that project coming,
      by the way?), we will really need to get _Oko Tserkovnoe_ into
      English too.

      Stephen

      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@y...> wrote:
      > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...>
      wrote:
      > > Well, how about that! I don't know whether it qualifies as de-
      > > Nikonianization; maybe Nikita can fill us in on the Old Rite
      practice.
      > >
      > > Stephen
      >
      > **** According to the "Oko Tserkovnoe" (The Eye of the Church, the
      > Pre-Nikonian Typikon), Chapters 2 (Palestinian Ustav) and 3 (Russian
      > Ustav for lavras), the prayer "Vouchsafe, O Lord" is read by the
      > "ustroennyi mnikh", the monk who is scheduled to read.
      >
      > If you want to introduce some creeping de-Nikonifications, first you
      > would have to stop singing this, then you would have to re-introduce
      > the pre-Nikonian text, then you would have to replace the 3
      appointed
      > bows to their original places (and don't forget that these are done
      as
      > prostrations during any of the fasting periods on weekdays). The way
      > we do it is:
      >
      > Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this evening without sin. (bow)
      > Blessed art Thou, O Lord God of our fathers, (bow)
      > And praised and glorified is Thy Name unto the ages. Amen. (bow)
      > Let Thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, according as we have hoped in
      Thee.
      > Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach us Thy statutes.
      > Blessed art Thou, O Master, give us understanding of Thy statutes.
      > Blessed art Thou, O Holy One, enlighten us with Thy statutes.
      > O Lord, Thy mercy endureth forever; despise not the work of Thy
      hands.
      > Unto Thee is due praise; unto Thee is due song; unto Thee glory is
      due:
      > To the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
      > now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
      >
      > (Now we've got to start fixing all the other "discrepancies"....
      Maybe
      > we'll even get the Stoglav Council reinstated. Whoopee!)
      >
      > Nikita
      >
      >
    • Nikita Simmons
      ... The project seems to have come to a halt for now. I m hoping that when autumn comes around we can get things back on track. So much has already been done
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...> wrote:
        > Once the New-Rite Typikon is translated (how is that project coming,
        > by the way?), we will really need to get _Oko Tserkovnoe_ into
        > English too.
        >
        > Stephen

        The project seems to have come to a halt for now. I'm hoping that when
        autumn comes around we can get things back on track. So much has
        already been done (maybe half of the Typicon), but there is so much
        more work to do, and it's the real intensive (and intimidating)
        translation work that has become the prime obstable for wrapping this
        project up.

        The other obstacle has been a lack of consistent translated materials.
        For the sake of uniformity in the translated Typicon, we all agreed to
        use Isaac Lambertsen's translations. But unfortunately most of us
        cannot afford to own the entire Menaion to be able to provide the
        proper incipits (first lines of hymns) which the monthly and Triodion
        sections continually refer to in the rubrics.

        Nikita
      • stephen_r1937
        Well, this is good news and bad; I certainly hope that this is just a brief time-out. The only inexpensive Menaia, to my knowledge, are Greek. The rest of us
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
          Well, this is good news and bad; I certainly hope that this is just a
          brief time-out. The only inexpensive Menaia, to my knowledge, are
          Greek. The rest of us are daunted. However, Holy Apostles has a
          copy, and if you make a list of incipits in Slavonic with their
          location in the Menaion, I'm sure they would let you rummage around a
          bit and find them.

          Stephen

          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Nikita Simmons" <starina77@y...> wrote:
          > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...>
          wrote:
          > > Once the New-Rite Typikon is translated (how is that project
          coming,
          > > by the way?), we will really need to get _Oko Tserkovnoe_ into
          > > English too.
          > >
          > > Stephen
          >
          > The project seems to have come to a halt for now. I'm hoping that
          when
          > autumn comes around we can get things back on track. So much has
          > already been done (maybe half of the Typicon), but there is so much
          > more work to do, and it's the real intensive (and intimidating)
          > translation work that has become the prime obstable for wrapping
          this
          > project up.
          >
          > The other obstacle has been a lack of consistent translated
          materials.
          > For the sake of uniformity in the translated Typicon, we all agreed
          to
          > use Isaac Lambertsen's translations. But unfortunately most of us
          > cannot afford to own the entire Menaion to be able to provide the
          > proper incipits (first lines of hymns) which the monthly and
          Triodion
          > sections continually refer to in the rubrics.
          >
          > Nikita
        • bradley anderson
          The only inexpensive Menaia, to my knowledge, are Greek. The rest of us are daunted. Mine is not a wealthy parish. Yet, when I mentioned to our treasurer
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
            "The only inexpensive Menaia, to my knowledge, are
            Greek. The rest of us are daunted."

            Mine is not a wealthy parish. Yet, when I mentioned
            to our treasurer that we did not have a complete
            Menaion, and he heard the price of the SJKP Menaion,
            his only response was "it sounds like something we
            should have," and that was that.

            I guess all I'm saying is that choir directors/readers
            in parishes without a complete English Menaion should
            make sure they actually ask those who hold the
            pursestrings, and not just assume that the answer will
            be no. Given the centrality of Menaion texts in our
            services, it is a very good investment.

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          • Janet M Damian
            I agree with you, we needed a menaion as well. I brought it up only once and got it. it s easy to be intimidated by parish councils, budgets, treasurers, and
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 1, 2003
              I agree with you, we needed a menaion as well. I brought it up only once
              and got it. it's easy to be intimidated by parish councils, budgets,
              treasurers, and the like. but when something is needed for worship -
              usually they can find a way.

              janet


              On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:19:27 -0700 (PDT) bradley anderson
              <andersonbradley@...> writes:
              > "The only inexpensive Menaia, to my knowledge, are
              > Greek. The rest of us are daunted."
              >
              > Mine is not a wealthy parish. Yet, when I mentioned
              > to our treasurer that we did not have a complete
              > Menaion, and he heard the price of the SJKP Menaion,
              > his only response was "it sounds like something we
              > should have," and that was that.
              >
              > I guess all I'm saying is that choir directors/readers
              > in parishes without a complete English Menaion should
              > make sure they actually ask those who hold the
              > pursestrings, and not just assume that the answer will
              > be no. Given the centrality of Menaion texts in our
              > services, it is a very good investment.


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