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Re: [ustav] Ustav 101 Question

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  • James Morgan
    ... contemporary English we can muster for our texts of the liturgy; that s what the Protestants did in England five centuries ago. They were there, then.
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 7, 2003
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      > I heartily recommend that we use the best, euphonious, elevated
      contemporary English we can muster for our texts of the liturgy; that's
      what the Protestants did in England five centuries ago. They were there,
      then.
      >
      > We are here, now, and we must do what only we can do here, now.
      >
      > Lord, lead us to Your holy mountain, to the place where Your glory dwells.
      >
      > Peace and blessings to all.
      >
      > Monk James

      Evlogite!

      I heartily agree with you, haveing perused at least three translations of
      various things. (Menaion, Oktoechos, Horologion, for starters).

      Unless we want to go back to using Greek as she was spoke back then.
      In which case we will be like the Old RC Latin Ritualists...

      More two farthings worth, which is practically nothing, I know....

      Reader James Morgan
      Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
      Olympia, WA
    • stephen_r1937
      Well, you needn t duck for me. I m open to good translations in either style. As I said somewhere in this thread, this forum does have an official position
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 7, 2003
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        Well, you needn't duck for me. I'm open to good translations in
        either style. As I said somewhere in this thread, this forum does
        have an official position in favor of so-called Elizabethan, and its
        membership is diverse in preference. Also that there are arguments
        on either side. I do think that it should be done well, whatever
        style one chooses. Yoohoo is not the only pitfall to contemporary
        English, as you will quickly see by surveying the various
        translations now in use by various denominations. (There is the
        parody translation of kai to pneumati sou: "Same back at you,
        dude!") But that is not proof that no one should use contemporary
        English, only that this sort of translation is difficult to do well,
        as is translation into "Elizabethan."

        Stephen

        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@c...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Stephen:
        >
        >>
        > Dear Stephen:
        >
        > Since thou wast reproving and behooving, this seems a good time
        to plug
        > for modest, humble contemporary Inglis as she is spoke. Only
        caveat on my
        > part is "You who..."
        >
        > Throwing my monkey wrench and ducking madly...
        >
        > Rdr. James
        > Traditionalist, non-modernist, anti-ecumenist at
        > Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
        > Olympia, WA
      • Margaret Lark
        Glory to God for all things! ... From: stephen_r1937 ....there are arguments on either side. I do think that it should be done well, whatever style one
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 8, 2003
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          Glory to God for all things!

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: stephen_r1937


          ....there are arguments
          on either side. I do think that it should be done well, whatever
          style one chooses. Yoohoo is not the only pitfall to contemporary
          English, as you will quickly see by surveying the various
          translations now in use by various denominations. (There is the
          parody translation of kai to pneumati sou: "Same back at you,
          dude!")

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Then there's my personal favorite, NOT a parody, a translation of the phrase "I am exalted": "I jump for joy." Credit, or not, goes to New Skete Monastery, and since seeing that in their Horologion, I give their products a wide, wide berth.

          In Christ,
          Margaret

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Morgan
          ... phrase I am exalted : I jump for joy. Credit, or not, goes to New Skete Monastery, and since seeing that in their Horologion, I give their products a
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 8, 2003
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            > Then there's my personal favorite, NOT a parody, a translation of the
            phrase "I am exalted": "I jump for joy." Credit, or not, goes to New Skete
            Monastery, and since seeing that in their Horologion, I give their products
            a wide, wide berth.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Margaret

            I thought we were not supposed to jump in church, but to stand upright and
            soberly, nor were we to clap our hands although the Psalmist tells us to on
            occasion.


            Reader James Morgan
            Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
            Olympia, WA
          • Nikita Simmons
            ... of the ... New Skete ... products ... upright and ... us to on ... ...And what about that reference to dance now, and be glad, O Sion? I think it s in
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 9, 2003
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              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "James Morgan" <rdrjames@c...> wrote:
              > > Then there's my personal favorite, NOT a parody, a translation
              of the
              > phrase "I am exalted": "I jump for joy." Credit, or not, goes to
              New Skete
              > Monastery, and since seeing that in their Horologion, I give their
              products
              > a wide, wide berth.
              > >
              > > In Christ,
              > > Margaret
              >
              > I thought we were not supposed to jump in church, but to stand
              upright and
              > soberly, nor were we to clap our hands although the Psalmist tells
              us to on
              > occasion.
              >
              >
              > Reader James Morgan
              > Holy Ascension Mission (OCA)
              > Olympia, WA

              ...And what about that reference to "dance now, and be glad, O Sion?"
              I think it's in the imperative, so shouldn't we obey the Scriptures?
              Even just a little shake or shimmy now and then? (The Jews at least
              get to shuckle and some even do special Sabbath dances.)

              Hey, don't the Copts or Ethiopians or some other Orthodox Church in
              Africa have some form of liturgical dance that involves pounding feet
              and staves in complex rhythms, as well as shaking the ripidi with
              those little bells attached? Now all we need are drums and rattles,
              maybe a digeredoo....

              Nikita
            • Daniel Olson
              ... Actually, this translation is probably closer to the true meaning of the Greek murophoroi (Slavonic muronositsy ) than is myrrhbearers or
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 13, 2003
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                On 5 Aug 03, Reader Michael Malloy wrote:

                > Nassar is hopeless. OINTMENT Bearing Women?

                Actually, this translation is probably closer to the true meaning of the
                Greek "murophoroi" (Slavonic "muronositsy") than is "myrrhbearers" or
                "myrrhbearing women". The reason for this is that the Greek word "muron",
                from which the first part of "murophoroi" is derived, means (according to
                Liddell & Scott) "sweet oil, unguent, perfume". Lampe gives the same
                meaning, although in reverse order.

                The Greek word for "myrrh" is actually "smurna" (or in the Aeolian dialect,
                "murra"). Although it is tempting to think that there is some relationship
                between "muron" and "smurna", they are actually not at all related
                etymologically. Concerning "smurna", Liddle & Scott relates that "the
                original form must have been 'murra' from the Phoenicia 'morah'." The noun
                "muron" is related to the verb "murizo" which means "to rub with ointment or
                unguent, anoint".

                The same distinction between "muron" and "smurna" is found in Church
                Slavonic, where both words have been borrowed from Greek. The Greek "muron"
                became "muro" in Slavonic, while the Greek "smurna" remained unchanged.

                Thus, the word "murophoros" (of which "murophoroi" is the feminine plural)
                means "bearing unguents" according to both Liddell & Scott and Lampe.

                There may perhaps be a more felicitous translation of "murrophoroi"
                available for liturgical purposes; but one that uses "myrrh" does not appear
                to represent the meaning of the Greek word accurately.

                Daniel Olson
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