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Re: Holy Week Reversal

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  • stephen_r1937
    ... directions ... Sabbaitic ... Indeed he is risen! Dear Sergius, Thank you! This makes sense; to reduce it to the simplest terms, the Mesonyktikon would
    Message 1 of 20 , May 31 9:47 AM
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      --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...>
      wrote:

      > Christ is risen!
      >
      > Dear Stephen,
      > I suspect that at least the Sunday and festal form of the Midnight
      > Office is really the old Constantinopolitan and Studite "Pannychis"
      > that was sung on Sundays and feasts. It's format included a canon
      > always. See the Synaxarion of the Theotokos Evergetis for
      directions
      > for the Pannychis for feast days. The Sabbaitic All-Night Vigil
      > didn't exist in those usages. (Note that chapter 7 of The
      Sabbaitic
      > Typicon directs a form of service for Sundays without Vigil but
      > w/Compline and Midnight Office. This seems to me to be the remnants
      > of the Studite usage.) The weekday & Saturday form of the Midnight
      > Office may be from a different source, i.e., the prayer rule.
      >
      > In XC,
      > Sergius Miller

      Indeed he is risen!

      Dear Sergius,

      Thank you! This makes sense; to reduce it to the simplest terms, the
      Mesonyktikon would then be the Constantinopolitan night office, and
      the nocturns section of Mattins the Palestinian night office. A good
      answer to the question raised by Vasili, a commendable hypothesis
      worthy of publication. Might you write an article?

      Stephen
    • Sergius Miller
      ... Midnight ... Studite Pannychis ... canon ... remnants ... Midnight ... the ... good ... Dear Stephen, Many thanks for your kind words. If I m not
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 2, 2003
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        --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@l...> wrote:
        > --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > Christ is risen!
        > >
        > > Dear Stephen,
        > > I suspect that at least the Sunday and festal form of the
        Midnight
        > > Office is really the old Constantinopolitan and
        Studite "Pannychis"
        > > that was sung on Sundays and feasts. It's format included a
        canon
        > > always. See the Synaxarion of the Theotokos Evergetis for
        > directions
        > > for the Pannychis for feast days. The Sabbaitic All-Night Vigil
        > > didn't exist in those usages. (Note that chapter 7 of The
        > Sabbaitic
        > > Typicon directs a form of service for Sundays without Vigil but
        > > w/Compline and Midnight Office. This seems to me to be the
        remnants
        > > of the Studite usage.) The weekday & Saturday form of the
        Midnight
        > > Office may be from a different source, i.e., the prayer rule.
        > >
        > > In XC,
        > > Sergius Miller
        >
        > Indeed he is risen!
        >
        > Dear Sergius,
        >
        > Thank you! This makes sense; to reduce it to the simplest terms,
        the
        > Mesonyktikon would then be the Constantinopolitan night office, and
        > the nocturns section of Mattins the Palestinian night office. A
        good
        > answer to the question raised by Vasili, a commendable hypothesis
        > worthy of publication. Might you write an article?
        >
        > Stephen

        Dear Stephen,
        Many thanks for your kind words. If I'm not mistaken some of this
        has already appeared in print. I think there was an article within
        the last ten to twelve years that attempted to ferret out the
        relationships among the Midnight Office, the nocturnal portion of
        Matins, and the First Hour. When I get a chance I'll try to find it.

        I've often been struck by the similarities between our Matins
        between "God is the Lors [or "The Lord is God..."] and Psalm 50 and
        the former Roman Breviary office of Matins. You have essentially in
        both cases Psalms followed by homiletic readings. In fact in the
        western Monastic Breviary you even have a festal Gospel reading on
        Sundays and feasts. Of course, as we all know, none of us (except
        the Old Rite) still does the homiletic readings in our use.

        In XC,
        Sergius
      • stephen_r1937
        ... it. ... I would be grateful for the reference. ... in ... If only the 20th-century reforms of the Roman Rite had been informed by Eastern tradition! And
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 2, 2003
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          --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "Sergius Miller" <srbmillerr@a...>
          wrote:

          >
          > Dear Stephen,
          > Many thanks for your kind words. If I'm not mistaken some of this
          > has already appeared in print. I think there was an article within
          > the last ten to twelve years that attempted to ferret out the
          > relationships among the Midnight Office, the nocturnal portion of
          > Matins, and the First Hour. When I get a chance I'll try to find
          it.
          >

          I would be grateful for the reference.

          > I've often been struck by the similarities between our Matins
          > between "God is the Lors [or "The Lord is God..."] and Psalm 50 and
          > the former Roman Breviary office of Matins. You have essentially
          in
          > both cases Psalms followed by homiletic readings. In fact in the
          > western Monastic Breviary you even have a festal Gospel reading on
          > Sundays and feasts. Of course, as we all know, none of us (except
          > the Old Rite) still does the homiletic readings in our use.
          >
          If only the 20th-century reforms of the Roman Rite had been informed
          by Eastern tradition! And there were those who tried to get the
          authorities to see this, but they were mostly ignored. The (former)
          Roman rite has nothing like the quantity of troparia, stichera, etc
          that we are used to, but it is not devoid of such texts--the "Great
          Responsories" of Mattins (which seem to be the Roman sessionals) are
          not inferior in quality to ours. And now it's all stored in the
          attic--what a waste! I don't want to get into the much-vexed issue
          of Western-Rite Orthodoxy, but it is interesting and perhaps
          instructive to contemplate what might have resulted if the Roman rite
          of the last years of antiquity or the beginning of the Middle Ages
          (wherever one cares to place the transition) had then followed a
          historical course more like what actually took place in the East.

          Stephen

          Stephen
        • "Константин Рутковски
          Dear List, The rubrics for the past Sunday at http://212.188.13.168/izdat/ give the following footnote instruction concerning the sedalen to be read after the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 14, 2003
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            Dear List,

            The rubrics for the past Sunday at http://212.188.13.168/izdat/ give the following footnote instruction concerning the sedalen to be read after the first kaphizma: Glory...Both Now... Bogorodichen to the 3rd Tone "Tya Khodatajstvovavshuju..."

            There is no explanation in the calendar as to why the regular bogorodichen of that sedalen shold be set aside.

            Could anybody explain the reason behind that instruction, or was it a mistake?

            Konstantin Rutkowski
          • Sergius Miller
            ... give the following footnote instruction concerning the sedalen to be read after the first kaphizma: Glory...Both Now... Bogorodichen to the 3rd Tone Tya
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 14, 2003
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              --- In ustav@yahoogroups.com, "ëÏÎÓÔÁÎÔÉÎ òÕÔËÏ×ÓËÉÊ"
              <k_rutkowski@m...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear List,
              >
              > The rubrics for the past Sunday at http://212.188.13.168/izdat/
              give the following footnote instruction concerning the sedalen to be
              read after the first kaphizma: Glory...Both Now... Bogorodichen to
              the 3rd Tone "Tya Khodatajstvovavshuju..."
              >
              > There is no explanation in the calendar as to why the regular
              bogorodichen of that sedalen shold be set aside.
              >
              > Could anybody explain the reason behind that instruction, or was it
              a mistake?
              >
              > Konstantin Rutkowski

              When the bogorodichen of the tone (in this case tone 3) is not sung
              after the troparion of the Sunday at "God is the Lord..." because the
              bogorodichen used follows the tone of the commemoration; then the
              bogorodichen of the tone replaces the bogorodichen of the first
              sedalen.

              Sergius Miller
            • Daniel Olson
              ... This was not a mistake At God is the Lord... ( Bog Gospod ) when a troparion to a saint appointed, the theotokion that follows it is always in the tone
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 14, 2003
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                on 7/14/03 Konstantin Rutkowski wrote:

                > The rubrics for the past Sunday at http://212.188.13.168/izdat/ give the
                > following footnote instruction concerning the sedalen to be read after the
                > first kaphizma: Glory...Both Now... Bogorodichen to the 3rd Tone "Tya
                > Khodatajstvovavshuju..."
                >
                > There is no explanation in the calendar as to why the regular bogorodichen of
                > that sedalen shold be set aside.
                >
                > Could anybody explain the reason behind that instruction, or was it a mistake?

                This was not a mistake

                At "God is the Lord..." ("Bog Gospod'") when a troparion to a saint
                appointed, the theotokion that follows it is always in the tone of the
                saint's troparion. Thus, on the past Sunday, the troparion to the Apostles
                was in Tone 4 and the resurrectional theotokion that followed it was in Tone
                4 -- "The mystery hidden from the ages..." ("Ezhe ot veka...").

                This means, though, that the resurrectional theotokion in the tone of the
                week, i.e., Tone 3 -- Tja khodatajstvovavshuju... -- was not sung after
                "God is the Lord..." When such a case occurs, the resurrectional theotokion
                in the tone of the week is then transferred to the sessional hymns (sedalny)
                following the first reading from the Psalter. When this transfer occurs, the
                theotokion in the Octoechos printed after the first two resurrectional
                sessional hymns is omitted.

                The reason for this provision is that the resurrectional theotokion in the
                tone of the week is considered to be of such importantance that it may not
                be entirely omitted. Thus, whenever it is not sung after "God is the
                Lord...," it is invariably sung after the first reading from the Psalter.

                Daniel Olson
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