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"Ustav 101" -- A Question

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  • Margaret Lark
    If I have a number of Troparia to sing, what order do they go in? For example: 1. Resurrectional Tropar 2. Troparia of the Saints of the Menologion 3.
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
      If I have a number of Troparia to sing, what order do they go in? For example:

      1. Resurrectional Tropar
      2. Troparia of the Saints of the Menologion
      3. Parish Tropar
      4. Tropar to the Saint of the Household
      5. Daily Troparia (to the Angels, Saints, Cross, etc.)

      I'm trying to learn the Osmoglasie, so have been singing all these at home. I do realize that one shouldn't sing the Resurrectional Tropar on a weekday, but it's the only way I'll ever learn it, so I do. And I thought, if I'm going to this extent to learn things, I may as well learn how to do it correctly.

      Thank you! In Christ,
      Margaret the sinner

      --
      Glory to God for all things!
      --
    • Theophan
      I have a question or two surely much more elementary than my sister Margaret s, whose example emboldened me to ask, which some of us were wondering about in
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
        I have a question or two surely much more elementary than my sister
        Margaret's, whose example emboldened me to ask, which some of us were
        wondering about in church, recently, about making the sign of the cross in
        church:

        In the canons at Matins, what is the "rule" for crossing oneself at the
        refrains? Are we, and the congregation, to cross ourselves with every
        refrain in every ode of every canon, or only those to the Lord, or only at
        Glory...?

        And we tend to make the sign of the cross in all of the ecteniae when
        singing, "Lord, have mercy," but I just noticed something in the Jordanville
        prayer book that the choir should not do that. Are there times when the
        general rule is to make the sign of the cross, but the choir should refrain
        from doing so?

        Are these variable "rules," or is there a standard that we should be
        following?

        Thank you!

        Theophan Dort
      • Jenner, Malcolm
        ... The rule that I am familiar with is to cross yourself at each refrain. I am not clear what to do when using the canticle verses. ... St Ignatii
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Theophan [mailto:theophan@...]
          > Sent: 01 November 2002 14:03
          > To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ustav] Another "Ustav 101" Question
          >
          >
          > I have a question or two surely much more elementary than my sister
          > Margaret's, whose example emboldened me to ask, which some of us were
          > wondering about in church, recently, about making the sign of
          > the cross in
          > church:
          >
          > In the canons at Matins, what is the "rule" for crossing
          > oneself at the
          > refrains? Are we, and the congregation, to cross ourselves with every
          > refrain in every ode of every canon, or only those to the
          > Lord, or only at
          > Glory...?
          >

          The rule that I am familiar with is to cross yourself at each refrain. I
          am not clear what to do when using the canticle verses.

          > And we tend to make the sign of the cross in all of the ecteniae when
          > singing, "Lord, have mercy," but I just noticed something in
          > the Jordanville
          > prayer book that the choir should not do that. Are there
          > times when the
          > general rule is to make the sign of the cross, but the choir
          > should refrain
          > from doing so?
          >

          St Ignatii Brianchaninov in his "Instructions to Novices" specifies crossing
          only at the start and end of each ectenia. Only the Deacon is generally
          instructed to cross himself at each verse.


          > Are these variable "rules," or is there a standard that we should be
          > following?
          >

          Generally singers do less by way of crossing (and more particularly bows and
          prostrations) than non-singers. But perhaps note the rubrics for the
          Antiphon "Let my prayer be set forth" at the Divine Liturgy of the
          Presanctified Gifts, where everyone on one side of the church makes a
          prostration at a refrain while the singers on the other side are singing it.

          The rules should generally be taken as for guidance only and may be adapted.
          Some (such as the ban on bows in the middle of the Six Psalms) should be
          treated as mandatory.

          Archimandrite Kyril Jenner
        • Sergius Miller
          ... Dear Theophan, There is an extended discussion of the sign of the Cross as well as bows and prostrations in a thread which begins w/no. 26 in Nov. 1998 in
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
            --- In ustav@y..., "Theophan" <theophan@i...> wrote:


            Dear Theophan,
            There is an extended discussion of the sign of the Cross as well as
            bows and prostrations in a thread which begins w/no. 26 in Nov. 1998
            in this List's archives.

            In XC,
            Sergius Miller



            > I have a question or two surely much more elementary than my sister
            > Margaret's, whose example emboldened me to ask, which some of us
            were
            > wondering about in church, recently, about making the sign of the
            cross in
            > church:
            >
            > In the canons at Matins, what is the "rule" for crossing oneself at
            the
            > refrains? Are we, and the congregation, to cross ourselves with
            every
            > refrain in every ode of every canon, or only those to the Lord, or
            only at
            > Glory...?
            >
            > And we tend to make the sign of the cross in all of the ecteniae
            when
            > singing, "Lord, have mercy," but I just noticed something in the
            Jordanville
            > prayer book that the choir should not do that. Are there times
            when the
            > general rule is to make the sign of the cross, but the choir should
            refrain
            > from doing so?
            >
            > Are these variable "rules," or is there a standard that we should be
            > following?
            >
            > Thank you!
            >
            > Theophan Dort
          • boulia_1
            Dear Margaret, There is a hierarchy. The answer depends on to whom/which feast the temple is dedicated, the day, etc... Also, your question seems to be
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
              Dear Margaret,

              There is a hierarchy. The answer depends on to whom/which feast the
              temple is dedicated, the day, etc... Also, your question seems to be
              regarding home prayer and not liturgical 'order' ... I usually sing
              (to myself) any prayers/troparia in theyir appointed tone, but I don't
              sing my parish tropar at home, or other such variants that you'd see
              at liturgy...

              Joseph McLellan FLEW through this in liturgics class at Jordanville:
              I'll summarize what he said, pertaining to liturgy sung in a temple.
              maybe others will add.

              On a major (top 12) feast day, you only sing the tropar' and kondak of
              the feast.

              If the temple is dedicated to the Lord or one of his Feasts (Joseph's
              example was Theophany, the feast of his home parish in Boston), then
              no 'temple' troparion is sung if a different troparion of the Lord is
              appointed (including resurrectional). So, in fact, Troparia of Lord's
              temples are not sung nearly as often as Saints' or the Mother of
              God's...

              If is is a temple of the Mother of God, the temple's festal troparion
              is omitted if another Mother of God troparion is appointed (e.g. our
              parish is Pokrov; we would not sing our usual parish Troparion on the
              feast day of the Kursk icon, when we would sing the icon's troparion
              instead).

              If it is a temple of a saint, the Saint's troparion *may* be
              superceded if another saint (from the Menaion) of a 'vigil-rank' or
              higher is appointed that day (for example, on St. Nicholas day, a
              parish of St. Blessed Xenia would sing the Troparion to St. Nicholas
              and not to St. Xenia).

              THAT said, the general order is:

              1. Troparion of the Lord
              2. Troparion of the Mother of God (parish feast or otherwise)
              3. Troparion of the Saint of the Church (if applicable)
              4. Troparion/Troparia of other saints of the day

              then, Kontakia, the order is generally the same, except that normal
              practice is to save the Mother of God for last, on 'now and ever'
              (unless it's a Lord's temple, in which case, on Sundays, the
              resurrectional kondakion is the ultimate one)


              There is a hierarchy of saints (Apostles rank higher that Martyrs,
              eg.) which determines their order within this order; generally the
              menaion follows it. Maybe someone else could expand upon that, as I am
              out of time at the moment...


              Hope this helps...

              In Christ's love,
              Elizabeth

              --- In ustav@y..., "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...> wrote:
              > If I have a number of Troparia to sing, what order do they go in?
              For example:
              >
              > 1. Resurrectional Tropar
              > 2. Troparia of the Saints of the Menologion
              > 3. Parish Tropar
              > 4. Tropar to the Saint of the Household
              > 5. Daily Troparia (to the Angels, Saints, Cross, etc.)
              >
              > I'm trying to learn the Osmoglasie, so have been singing all these
              at home. I do realize that one shouldn't sing the Resurrectional
              Tropar on a weekday, but it's the only way I'll ever learn it, so I
              do. And I thought, if I'm going to this extent to learn things, I may
              as well learn how to do it correctly.
              >
              > Thank you! In Christ,
              > Margaret the sinner
              >
              > --
              > Glory to God for all things!
              > --
            • stephen_r1937
              ... when ... crossing ... generally ... At least in my neighborhood, it seems to be the Russian practice to cross at each petition; but I think that this is
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
                --- In ustav@y..., "Jenner, Malcolm" <cm1984@w...> wrote:
                >
                > > And we tend to make the sign of the cross in all of the ecteniae
                when
                > > singing, "Lord, have mercy," but I just noticed something in
                > > the Jordanville
                > > prayer book that the choir should not do that. Are there
                > > times when the
                > > general rule is to make the sign of the cross, but the choir
                > > should refrain
                > > from doing so?
                > >
                >
                > St Ignatii Brianchaninov in his "Instructions to Novices" specifies
                crossing
                > only at the start and end of each ectenia. Only the Deacon is
                generally
                > instructed to cross himself at each verse.

                At least in my neighborhood, it seems to be the "Russian" practice to
                cross at each petition; but I think that this is limited to
                (historically) Russian parishes and is a fairly recent usage even in
                Russia. The Old Believers do not do it, nor is it the practice of
                Western Rus', where practice varies a bit from place to place but
                does not include crossing at each petition anywhere that I know of
                (one hears that there are thirty-six crosses in the Liturgy, but I
                don't recall where they are supposed to be and apparently neither
                does anyone else!).

                Stephen
              • Sergius Miller
                ... 1998 ... Oooops! That should be no. 20 S.M.
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
                  --- In ustav@y..., "Sergius Miller" <millerr@c...> wrote:
                  > --- In ustav@y..., "Theophan" <theophan@i...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Theophan,
                  > There is an extended discussion of the sign of the Cross as well as
                  > bows and prostrations in a thread which begins w/no. 26 in Nov.
                  1998
                  > in this List's archives.
                  >
                  > In XC,
                  > Sergius Miller


                  Oooops! That should be no. 20

                  S.M.
                • Theophan
                  MANY thanks to all who replied about bows in services. It was very helpful! Theophan Dort
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
                    MANY thanks to all who replied about bows in services. It was very helpful!

                    Theophan Dort
                  • Margaret Lark
                    From: boulia_1 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:39:17 -0000 Dear Elizabeth, ... Thanks for recapping the notes from Joseph s Ustav class.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
                      From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                      Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:39:17 -0000

                      Dear Elizabeth,

                      >There is a hierarchy. The answer depends on to whom/which feast the
                      >temple is dedicated, the day, etc... Also, your question seems to be
                      >regarding home prayer and not liturgical 'order' ... I usually sing
                      >(to myself) any prayers/troparia in their appointed tone, but I don't
                      > sing my parish tropar at home, or other such variants that you'd see
                      >at liturgy...

                      Thanks for recapping the notes from Joseph's Ustav class. I didn't use them because I know they were geared for church services, and you're right, I was asking about this order because I do sing the troparia at home -- how else am I going to learn them by heart?! =:o That said, one reason I wanted to include the parish tropar at home was out of gratitude to St. Xenia for bringing us to her parish, and I also don't want to forget the patron saint of our family -- for some reason known but to him, St. Sergius of Radonezh seems to have taken on this role. So I like to sing his tropar, too.

                      Which reminds me: It's in Tone 4, but when I looked at the music from your father's website, it sounds more like the aftomelon for St. George's feast. How does this work -- should I be using the melody from your father's website, or the standard Tone 4 melody? For that matter, how does an aftomelon relate to *any* tone?!

                      Thoroughly confusled, as Pooh would say.

                      In Christ,
                      Margaret

                      --
                      Glory to God for all things!
                      --
                    • stephen_r1937
                      Dear Margaret, A question about your question: What automelon for St George? The feat has several for stichera, As one valiant among the martyrs and the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
                        Dear Margaret,

                        A question about your question: What automelon for St George? The
                        feat has several for stichera, "As one valiant among the martyrs"
                        and the rarer "The steely hardness of mind," as well as prosomia
                        of "Called from above"; and all of these in Tone 4. But special
                        melodies for stichera would not be used for troparia. As for the
                        troparion for St George, I find that some books give "Thou hast
                        fought the good fight" and others "As the liberator of captives."
                        Both of these are also in Tone 4, but I don't find either of them
                        listed as an automelon, or even as a prosomion. This does not prove
                        much, because books emanting from Russian sources have acquired the
                        bad habit of omitting rubrics concerning special melodies for
                        troparia; I don't have Reader Isaac's Menaion, which would give any
                        such rubric found in the Slavonic Menaion, and what I do have is not
                        entirely reliable in this respect. So I am curious as to which
                        automelon you have in mind.

                        Stephen

                        --- In ustav@y..., "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...> wrote:
                        one reason I wanted to include the parish tropar at home was out of
                        gratitude to St. Xenia for bringing us to her parish, and I also
                        don't want to forget the patron saint of our family -- for some
                        reason known but to him, St. Sergius of Radonezh seems to have taken
                        on this role. So I like to sing his tropar, too.
                        >
                        > Which reminds me: It's in Tone 4, but when I looked at the music
                        from your father's website, it sounds more like the aftomelon for St.
                        George's feast. How does this work -- should I be using the melody
                        from your father's website, or the standard Tone 4 melody? For that
                        matter, how does an aftomelon relate to *any* tone?!
                        >
                      • Margaret Lark
                        From: stephen_r1937 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 19:34:27 -0000 Dear Stephen, ... I m learning As one valiant among the martyrs. ... So
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 2, 2002
                          From: "stephen_r1937" <stephen.r@...>
                          Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 19:34:27 -0000

                          Dear Stephen,

                          >A question about your question: What automelon for St George? The
                          >feat has several for stichera, "As one valiant among the martyrs"
                          >and the rarer "The steely hardness of mind," as well as prosomia
                          >of "Called from above"; and all of these in Tone 4.

                          I'm learning "As one valiant among the martyrs."

                          >....But special
                          >melodies for stichera would not be used for troparia....

                          So you are saying that "As one valiant among the martyrs" is a melody for stichera?? I'm clueless here -- all I know is, I have to have this stuff memorized for the Jordanville course. However, the piece of music I was referring to is clearly the Tropar for St. Sergius, the musical reference given is "Tone 4," and the melody it is set to (which I got from Alexander Ledkovsky's site) is *not* the Tone 4 Tropar melody. Although not exactly like the St. George one, it has similar musical patterns.

                          So I was wondering which one I should use for St. Sergius.

                          Thanks for asking for clarification. There's a *reason* I referred to my question as "Ustav 101" -- the stuff everyone else knows except a newbie ROCOR member.

                          In Christ,
                          Margaret Lark


                          --
                          Glory to God for all things!
                          --
                        • stephen_r1937
                          ... melody for stichera?? Yes, that s right. There are three categories of special melodies: stichera, troparia, and exapostilaria. Any special melody will
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 3, 2002
                            --- In ustav@y..., "Margaret Lark" <skovranok@t...> wrote:
                            > So you are saying that "As one valiant among the martyrs" is a
                            melody for stichera??

                            Yes, that's right. There are three categories of special melodies:
                            stichera, troparia, and exapostilaria. Any special melody will
                            belong to only one of these and should not be used for texts
                            belonging to other categories. (In theory, this rule should also
                            apply to non-special melodies, but the Russian "Common Chant"
                            regularly violates it in several cases.) So is the troparion melody
                            from the Ledkovsky site similar to "As one valiant"?

                            I'm clueless here -- all I know is, I have to have this stuff
                            memorized for the Jordanville course. However, the piece of music I
                            was referring to is clearly the Tropar for St. Sergius, the musical
                            reference given is "Tone 4," and the melody it is set to (which I got
                            from Alexander Ledkovsky's site) is *not* the Tone 4 Tropar melody.
                            Although not exactly like the St. George one, it has similar musical
                            patterns.

                            Well, this is quite possible. A legitimate melody for troparia might
                            *resemble* another for stichera.

                            >
                            > So I was wondering which one I should use for St. Sergius.

                            I would go ahead and use the one from the Ledkovsky site if it seems
                            good on its merits. But I would also follow up on this and satisfy
                            my curiosity. Russian practice is weak on special melodies for
                            troparia; it is generally assumed that they don't exist, except
                            for "Noble Joseph" and "Today the Virgin," which are treated as
                            strictly seasonal chants. Recent collection in English often omit
                            the rubrics prescribing special melodies for troparia (seems
                            absolutely irresponsible to me), so it is a good idea to go the
                            liturgical books themselves, in Greek or Slavonic if a strict English
                            translation is not available.

                            >
                            > Thanks for asking for clarification. There's a *reason* I referred
                            to my question as "Ustav 101" -- the stuff everyone else knows except
                            a newbie ROCOR member.
                            >
                            I would be interested in looking at the melody in question. There is
                            plenty of room for confusion, for example the two dismissal troparia
                            for St George--and that is not a unique case.

                            Ustav is good for answering 101 questions; from time to time I have
                            one myself. There is always more to learn.

                            Stephen
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