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Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple questions)

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  • boulia_1
    Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki: For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know, that s pretty much everything), what are the rules for
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 15, 2002
      Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki:

      For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know,
      that's pretty much everything), what are the rules for 'cutting'?

      I am thinking specifically about the "Prednachinatil'niy Psalom" (103)
      as well as "Hvalite imya Gospodnya" sung at Polyeleos, though other
      examples (102 - 1st Antiphon in Liturgy) are out there.

      In my parish, at Great Vespers, it is the norm to sing quite a few
      verses from Psalm 103; many more than we ever sang in Synod or SF. We
      keep at it LONG after our tiny church has been thoroughly censed.
      Since we don't cut much at all (we sing all stikhiri, read all canons
      in full, no skipping katavasia, sing the 17th Kathisma when appointed,
      etc.) and our evening services are LONG, I'm starting to think if we
      might pare down our proemial psalm. It just seems that we go on and on
      and that the service doesn't start to flow until after we finish that
      Psalm. It doesn't feel right to me. What are your opinions?

      QUESTION TWO, related: A composer/arranger I know who is trying his
      hand at church music (no comment about his qualifications to do so...)
      asked me how does one choose verses for "Hvalite..." as he (and I)
      have sung longer and shorter versions of said. What are the rules or
      traditions?

      QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
      permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the 3rd
      usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
      text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that verses
      are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a piece by
      Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible a "konsert"
      may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not correctly
      use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd Antiphon. I
      know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert the
      troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
      abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella precedents!)

      Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

      In Christ's love,
      Elizabeth
    • Fr David Straut
      Dear Elizabeth, I will comment on Question One simply from my priestly viewpoint. I have asked my choir to sing a long version of Psalm 103 at the beginning
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 15, 2002
        Dear Elizabeth,

        I will comment on Question One simply from my priestly viewpoint. I have
        asked my choir to sing a long version of Psalm 103 at the beginning of Vigil
        so that I have time to cense the church and then say the seven Prayers of
        Light that are appointed to be read quietly during that Psalm. I too have a
        small chapel, so censing probably doesn't take as long as in a full sized
        church.

        We do some cutting of the service:

        (a) We sing the standard selected verses of 'Blessed is the Man...' at
        Vespers rather than interspersing them in the first kathisma,
        (b) We read three Psalms rather than two full kathismata at Matins (a la St
        John Maximovitch),
        (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six verses from
        the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and
        (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
        Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore omitting
        the sometimes appointed third troparion.

        On the other hand, we do certain things that seem often to be omitted in
        Russian churches like
        (a) We read all the psalm verses at 'Lord, I have cried...' between the two
        initially sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
        (b) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on 'Lord, I have cried...',
        (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,
        (d) We read Psalm 50,
        (e) We read all the psalm verses at the Praises between the two initially
        sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
        (f) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on the Praises.

        I trhink that it is very interested to hear what other Parishes do.

        In Christ's Love

        Priest David Straut
        Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
        Somerville, New Jersey


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
        To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 1:08 PM
        Subject: [ustav] Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple questions)


        > Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki:
        >
        > For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know,
        > that's pretty much everything), what are the rules for 'cutting'?
        >
        > I am thinking specifically about the "Prednachinatil'niy Psalom" (103)
        > as well as "Hvalite imya Gospodnya" sung at Polyeleos, though other
        > examples (102 - 1st Antiphon in Liturgy) are out there.
        >
        > In my parish, at Great Vespers, it is the norm to sing quite a few
        > verses from Psalm 103; many more than we ever sang in Synod or SF. We
        > keep at it LONG after our tiny church has been thoroughly censed.
        > Since we don't cut much at all (we sing all stikhiri, read all canons
        > in full, no skipping katavasia, sing the 17th Kathisma when appointed,
        > etc.) and our evening services are LONG, I'm starting to think if we
        > might pare down our proemial psalm. It just seems that we go on and on
        > and that the service doesn't start to flow until after we finish that
        > Psalm. It doesn't feel right to me. What are your opinions?
        >
        > QUESTION TWO, related: A composer/arranger I know who is trying his
        > hand at church music (no comment about his qualifications to do so...)
        > asked me how does one choose verses for "Hvalite..." as he (and I)
        > have sung longer and shorter versions of said. What are the rules or
        > traditions?
        >
        > QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
        > permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the 3rd
        > usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
        > text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that verses
        > are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a piece by
        > Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible a "konsert"
        > may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not correctly
        > use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd Antiphon. I
        > know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert the
        > troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
        > abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella precedents!)
        >
        > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
        >
        > In Christ's love,
        > Elizabeth
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
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        > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
        >
        > More ustav information and service texts:
        > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
        > http://www.orthodox.net/services
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Fr. John Whiteford
        ... For those who are not familiar with the idea, see: http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/abbr-sun-kathisma.html In addition to what is on that page, if one takes
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 15, 2002
          Fr. David wrote:

          > (b) We read three Psalms rather than two full kathismata at Matins >
          >(a la St> John Maximovitch),

          For those who are not familiar with the idea, see:

          http://www.orthodox.net/ustav/abbr-sun-kathisma.html

          In addition to what is on that page, if one takes the psalm from the
          first kathisma that corresponds to the tone of the week, you will get
          the three psalms Fr. David is talking about.

          That's what we do.

          When we have services on other days of the week, following the
          analogy of the link about, we have divided all the kathismata into 8
          sections, and use whichever section corresponds to the tone of the
          week. However on weekdays, this normally comes to only two psalms.

          > (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six
          verses from
          > the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and

          We do not do anything from Psalm 118 on Saturday evenings when there
          is no polyeleos. This is normal Russian parish practice.

          > (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
          > Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore
          omitting
          > the sometimes appointed third troparion.

          Our practice is to never repeat any troparia at the canon, but
          normally, we do each appointed troparion once.

          Bishop Gabriel told me that a vigil in a parish should last about 2
          1/2. hours. If you don't ommit anything, you are going to be doing
          something close to 3 1/2 to 4 hours, which is going to be a bit much
          for the average joe in a parish.

          -Fr. John Whiteford
        • Fr. John Whiteford
          Oops! To answer you third question: If by abbreviating the Beatitudes you mean simply ommitting the troparia, this is a common parish practice (though
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 15, 2002
            Oops! To answer you third question: If by abbreviating the
            Beatitudes you mean simply ommitting the troparia, this is a common
            parish practice (though personally, I think it is shame), but if you
            mean actually cutting short the beatitudes themselves, that I have
            never seen done.

            -Fr. John Whiteford

            > QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
            > permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the
            3rd
            > usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
            > text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that
            verses
            > are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a piece
            by
            > Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible
            a "konsert"
            > may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not
            correctly
            > use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd Antiphon.
            I
            > know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert
            the
            > troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
            > abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella
            precedents!)
            >
            > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
            >
            > In Christ's love,
            > Elizabeth
          • boulia_1
            Thank you, Father. In our parish, we do not omit the Troparia (nor cut the Beatitudes!) - - it was a question asked me by a dilletante composer who
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
              Thank you, Father.

              In our parish, we do not omit the Troparia (nor cut the Beatitudes!) -
              - it was a question asked me by a dilletante composer who
              unfortunately doesn't know the rubrics very well.



              --- In ustav@y..., "Fr. John Whiteford" <frjohnwhiteford@y...> wrote:
              > Oops! To answer you third question: If by abbreviating the
              > Beatitudes you mean simply ommitting the troparia, this is a common
              > parish practice (though personally, I think it is shame), but if
              you
              > mean actually cutting short the beatitudes themselves, that I have
              > never seen done.
              >
              > -Fr. John Whiteford
              >
            • boulia_1
              Thanks Fr. David: Your reply points me to the obvious thing that I haven t done yet: ask our priest what HE thinks!! Since you said you find it interesting,
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                Thanks Fr. David:

                Your reply points me to the obvious thing that I haven't done yet:
                ask our priest what HE thinks!!

                Since you said you find it interesting, I'll share where we cut/don't
                cut below:


                --- In ustav@y..., "Fr David Straut" <fr.straut@v...> wrote:
                > We do some cutting of the service:
                >
                > (a) We sing the standard selected verses of 'Blessed is the Man...'
                at
                > Vespers rather than interspersing them in the first kathisma,

                We do this also.

                > (b) We read three Psalms rather than two full kathismata at Matins
                (a la St
                > John Maximovitch),

                We do NOT follow St. John's rule but I would like to -- perhaps
                merely because it is what I am used to. I'll ask our bishop about
                this when he comes for Pokrov...


                > (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six
                verses from
                > the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and
                > (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
                > Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore
                omitting
                > the sometimes appointed third troparion.
                >
                > On the other hand, we do certain things that seem often to be
                omitted in
                > Russian churches like
                > (a) We read all the psalm verses at 'Lord, I have cried...' between
                the two
                > initially sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                > (b) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on 'Lord, I have
                cried...',
                > (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,
                > (d) We read Psalm 50,
                > (e) We read all the psalm verses at the Praises between the two
                initially
                > sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                > (f) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on the Praises.
                >
                > I trhink that it is very interested to hear what other Parishes do.
                >
                > In Christ's Love
                >
                > Priest David Straut
                > Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
                > Somerville, New Jersey
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...>
                > To: <ustav@y...>
                > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 1:08 PM
                > Subject: [ustav] Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple
                questions)
                >
                >
                > > Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki:
                > >
                > > For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know,
                > > that's pretty much everything), what are the rules for 'cutting'?
                > >
                > > I am thinking specifically about the "Prednachinatil'niy Psalom"
                (103)
                > > as well as "Hvalite imya Gospodnya" sung at Polyeleos, though
                other
                > > examples (102 - 1st Antiphon in Liturgy) are out there.
                > >
                > > In my parish, at Great Vespers, it is the norm to sing quite a few
                > > verses from Psalm 103; many more than we ever sang in Synod or
                SF. We
                > > keep at it LONG after our tiny church has been thoroughly censed.
                > > Since we don't cut much at all (we sing all stikhiri, read all
                canons
                > > in full, no skipping katavasia, sing the 17th Kathisma when
                appointed,
                > > etc.) and our evening services are LONG, I'm starting to think if
                we
                > > might pare down our proemial psalm. It just seems that we go on
                and on
                > > and that the service doesn't start to flow until after we finish
                that
                > > Psalm. It doesn't feel right to me. What are your opinions?
                > >
                > > QUESTION TWO, related: A composer/arranger I know who is trying
                his
                > > hand at church music (no comment about his qualifications to do
                so...)
                > > asked me how does one choose verses for "Hvalite..." as he (and I)
                > > have sung longer and shorter versions of said. What are the rules
                or
                > > traditions?
                > >
                > > QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
                > > permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the
                3rd
                > > usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
                > > text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that
                verses
                > > are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a
                piece by
                > > Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible
                a "konsert"
                > > may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not
                correctly
                > > use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd
                Antiphon. I
                > > know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert
                the
                > > troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
                > > abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella
                precedents!)
                > >
                > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
                > >
                > > In Christ's love,
                > > Elizabeth
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Post message: ustav@y...
                > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@y...
                > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@y...
                > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@y...
                > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                > >
                > > More ustav information and service texts:
                > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
              • boulia_1
                Thanks Fr. David: Your reply points me to the obvious thing that I haven t done yet: ask our priest what HE thinks!! Since you said you find it interesting,
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                  Thanks Fr. David:

                  Your reply points me to the obvious thing that I haven't done yet:
                  ask our priest what HE thinks!!

                  Since you said you find it interesting, I'll share where we cut/don't
                  cut below:


                  --- In ustav@y..., "Fr David Straut" <fr.straut@v...> wrote:
                  > We do some cutting of the service:
                  >
                  > (a) We sing the standard selected verses of 'Blessed is the Man...'
                  at
                  > Vespers rather than interspersing them in the first kathisma,

                  We do this also.

                  > (b) We read three Psalms rather than two full kathismata at Matins
                  (a la St
                  > John Maximovitch),

                  We do NOT follow St. John's rule but I would like to -- perhaps
                  merely because it is what I am used to. I'll ask our bishop about
                  this when he comes for Pokrov...


                  > (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six
                  verses from
                  > the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and
                  > (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
                  > Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore
                  omitting
                  > the sometimes appointed third troparion.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, we do certain things that seem often to be
                  omitted in
                  > Russian churches like
                  > (a) We read all the psalm verses at 'Lord, I have cried...' between
                  the two
                  > initially sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                  > (b) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on 'Lord, I have
                  cried...',
                  > (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,
                  > (d) We read Psalm 50,
                  > (e) We read all the psalm verses at the Praises between the two
                  initially
                  > sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                  > (f) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on the Praises.
                  >
                  > I trhink that it is very interested to hear what other Parishes do.
                  >
                  > In Christ's Love
                  >
                  > Priest David Straut
                  > Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
                  > Somerville, New Jersey
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@h...>
                  > To: <ustav@y...>
                  > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 1:08 PM
                  > Subject: [ustav] Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple
                  questions)
                  >
                  >
                  > > Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki:
                  > >
                  > > For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know,
                  > > that's pretty much everything), what are the rules for 'cutting'?
                  > >
                  > > I am thinking specifically about the "Prednachinatil'niy Psalom"
                  (103)
                  > > as well as "Hvalite imya Gospodnya" sung at Polyeleos, though
                  other
                  > > examples (102 - 1st Antiphon in Liturgy) are out there.
                  > >
                  > > In my parish, at Great Vespers, it is the norm to sing quite a few
                  > > verses from Psalm 103; many more than we ever sang in Synod or
                  SF. We
                  > > keep at it LONG after our tiny church has been thoroughly censed.
                  > > Since we don't cut much at all (we sing all stikhiri, read all
                  canons
                  > > in full, no skipping katavasia, sing the 17th Kathisma when
                  appointed,
                  > > etc.) and our evening services are LONG, I'm starting to think if
                  we
                  > > might pare down our proemial psalm. It just seems that we go on
                  and on
                  > > and that the service doesn't start to flow until after we finish
                  that
                  > > Psalm. It doesn't feel right to me. What are your opinions?
                  > >
                  > > QUESTION TWO, related: A composer/arranger I know who is trying
                  his
                  > > hand at church music (no comment about his qualifications to do
                  so...)
                  > > asked me how does one choose verses for "Hvalite..." as he (and I)
                  > > have sung longer and shorter versions of said. What are the rules
                  or
                  > > traditions?
                  > >
                  > > QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
                  > > permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the
                  3rd
                  > > usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
                  > > text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that
                  verses
                  > > are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a
                  piece by
                  > > Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible
                  a "konsert"
                  > > may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not
                  correctly
                  > > use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd
                  Antiphon. I
                  > > know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert
                  the
                  > > troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
                  > > abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella
                  precedents!)
                  > >
                  > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
                  > >
                  > > In Christ's love,
                  > > Elizabeth
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Post message: ustav@y...
                  > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@y...
                  > > Unsubscribe: ustav-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@y...
                  > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                  > >
                  > > More ustav information and service texts:
                  > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                  > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                • boulia_1
                  Dear Fr. David (apologies to all): My left thumb clicked sen before I ... verses from ... This is approx. what we do too. (d) We usually read only two troparia
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                    Dear Fr. David (apologies to all): My left thumb clicked sen before I
                    finished my last post! Sorry:


                    --- In ustav@y..., "Fr David Straut" <fr.straut@v...> wrote:

                    > We do some cutting of the service:
                    >
                    > (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six
                    verses from
                    > the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and

                    This is approx. what we do too.

                    (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
                    > Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore
                    omitting
                    > the sometimes appointed third troparion.

                    We don't omit any troparia, but we never repeat them when appointed
                    to do so.

                    > On the other hand, we do certain things that seem often to be
                    omitted in
                    > Russian churches like
                    > (a) We read all the psalm verses at 'Lord, I have cried...' between
                    the two
                    > initially sung verses and the verses on the stichera,

                    Ah, this we don't do.

                    > (b) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on 'Lord, I have
                    cried...',

                    Nor do we, and we sing them all.

                    > (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,

                    ?? I don't know this term. Are these the "sessionals"
                    or 'sedalens' ? We sing them! Or perhaps that's
                    the "Graduals" "Stepenna", which we only do, as most places, when
                    it's a feast or 4th Tone (From my Youth...). I don't know why this is
                    common practice, but I am curious about it!

                    > (d) We read Psalm 50,

                    We do too.

                    > (e) We read all the psalm verses at the Praises between the two
                    initially
                    > sung verses and the verses on the stichera,

                    This we don't do.

                    > (f) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on the Praises.

                    Nor do we, and we always sing them.
                    >
                    > I think that it is very interested to hear what other Parishes do.

                    I agree.

                    In Christ's Love
                    Elizabeth
                  • Fr David Straut
                    Dear Elizabeth, ... Anavathmoi is the Greek word with which I am familiar. I looked it up in the English Octoechos and it says Song of Ascents. We sing
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                      Dear Elizabeth,

                      > > (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,
                      >
                      > ?? I don't know this term. Are these the "sessionals"
                      > or 'sedalens' ? We sing them! Or perhaps that's
                      > the "Graduals" "Stepenna", which we only do, as most places, when
                      > it's a feast or 4th Tone (From my Youth...). I don't know why this is
                      > common practice, but I am curious about it!

                      Anavathmoi is the Greek word with which I am familiar. I looked it up in
                      the English Octoechos and it says 'Song of Ascents.' We sing 'From my
                      youth...' on Feastdays, but read the appointed 'Song of Ascents' in the Tone
                      of the week on Saturday evenings.

                      It would be better to sing both the sessional hymns and the 'Song of
                      Ascents,' but we simply read them. Our Saturday evening Vigils are usually
                      about 2 3/4 hours.

                      I just thought of two other abbreviations we make:

                      (a) We usually sing the Katasvasia after the 3rd, 6th, 8th, and 9th Odes
                      only rather than after all the Odes as is appointed in the Typikon for
                      Sundays. At certain seasons of the year we sing more:
                      (1) During the pre-Nativity season, we also sing the katavasia 'Christ is
                      born...' after the 1st Ode
                      (2) During the Paschal Season, when we sing the Paschal and Theotokos'
                      canons rather than reading them (as is standard practice, I think), we sing
                      the katavasia after all Odes.

                      (b) On Saturday evenings we read the exapostilaria rather than singing them.
                      We usually only sing the exapostilaria of Great Feasts, Holy Week, and
                      Pascha.

                      Elizabeth, thanks for bringing this subject up. I hope more people will
                      respond. The responses so far have gotten me thinking.

                      In Christ,

                      Priest David Straut
                      Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
                      Somerville, New Jersey
                    • Fr David Straut
                      Dear Fr Gregory, I m so happy that you responded! ... at ... When I have not been able to finish the Prayers of Light (usually, for me, the 7th prayer) during
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                        Dear Fr Gregory,

                        I'm so happy that you responded!

                        > Like Fr David, I have a small space for services in Portsmouth (UK) - at
                        > present in an Anglican church, but we do use a short version of psalm 103
                        at
                        > present (I usually have time to read three or four of the prayers and
                        > complete the other during "Blessed is the man"..

                        When I have not been able to finish the Prayers of Light (usually, for me,
                        the 7th prayer) during the singing of Psalm 103 at Vigil or the reading of
                        the same at Vespers, I finish during 'Blessed is the Man...' remaining in
                        place before the Holy Doors. Is this what you (and other priests out there)
                        do?

                        > We also do the normal short version of the Vespers Kathisma (the only time
                        I
                        > have experienced the whole Vespers Kathisma on Saturday night was at an
                        Old
                        > Ritual Vigil at the Rogozhsky cemetery Cathedral in Moscow).

                        I think that I've experienced the First Kathisma done this way in at least
                        one or two Russian Orthodox parishes. It is printed that way in the Vigil
                        Book from Jordanville that many of our ROCOR parishes use.

                        > At the Liturgy we always sing the Typical psalms in full and the troparia
                        on
                        > the Bestitudes are read - I know of nowhere else in England doing the
                        latter
                        > (I am of course, open to correction here).

                        We sing Psalm 102 in an abbreviated form, although we sing all of Psalm 145
                        and read the appointed troparia on the Beatitudes. I like the idea of
                        singing all of Psalm 102 and singing the troparia on the Beatitudes, but
                        we're not ready for that yet.

                        We do sing all of Psalm 33 at the end of the Liturgy (during which I consume
                        the Holy Gifts and begin to cleasnse the chalice and other vessels) and I
                        think that the people like this because the Psalm, and melody to which we
                        sing it, is very beautiful.

                        > One of our bishops said to me after a Vigil; "I know of nowhere else in
                        the
                        > diocese that is doing so much with such small resources". One thing that
                        > helps is that we sing quite quickly, though without gabbling, whereas I
                        know
                        > many places that sing very slowly, especially when singing Churhc Slavonic
                        > (in the latter case, because many choir members are not very familiar with
                        > the language).

                        I think that one of the things that makes Vigil longer is the more elaborate
                        melodies to which we sing the 'Lord, have mercies.' But this is something I
                        think it is hard for choirs and choir directors to let go of.

                        Priest David Straut
                        Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
                        Somerville, New Jersey
                      • G Woolfenden
                        Like Fr David, I have a small space for services in Portsmouth (UK) - at present in an Anglican church, but we do use a short version of psalm 103 at present
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                          Like Fr David, I have a small space for services in Portsmouth (UK) - at
                          present in an Anglican church, but we do use a short version of psalm 103 at
                          present (I usually have time to read three or four of the prayers and
                          complete the other during "Blessed is the man"..

                          We also do the normal short version of the Vespers Kathisma (the only time I
                          have experienced the whole Vespers Kathisma on Saturday night was at an Old
                          Ritual Vigil at the Rogozhsky cemetery Cathedral in Moscow). However we
                          also read all the verses and appointed stichera on "Lord I have cried". I
                          think it a pity that these psalms are so often abbreviated, they are amongst
                          the oldest elements of Vespers.

                          At Matins we also read three psalms rather than both kathismata (I have
                          worked out a way in which all of the psalms of these kathismata are heard
                          over a period of time). Like most parishes in the Russian tradition, we
                          always sing the Polyeleos rather than psalm 118. We normally have one
                          troparion each from the canons, and we read all the verses at the praises
                          and do not stint on stichera.

                          A priest friend in France was told by his bishop that two hours was
                          sufficient for a parish Vigil, and that is what I use as my guideline. I
                          also do not want to overload people - they are really only beginning to have
                          real familiarity with the Vigil (services are held on two weekends a month),
                          but we have a higher proportion of the congregation attending than most
                          other places I know.

                          At the Liturgy we always sing the Typical psalms in full and the troparia on
                          the Bestitudes are read - I know of nowhere else in England doing the latter
                          (I am of course, open to correction here).

                          One of our bishops said to me after a Vigil; "I know of nowhere else in the
                          diocese that is doing so much with such small resources". One thing that
                          helps is that we sing quite quickly, though without gabbling, whereas I know
                          many places that sing very slowly, especially when singing Churhc Slavonic
                          (in the latter case, because many choir members are not very familiar with
                          the language).

                          Fr Gregory Woolfenden (Portsmouth and Oxford - Sourozh diocese of Moscow
                          Patriarchate).

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Fr David Straut <fr.straut@...>
                          To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 12:38 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ustav] Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple questions)


                          > Dear Elizabeth,
                          >
                          > I will comment on Question One simply from my priestly viewpoint. I have
                          > asked my choir to sing a long version of Psalm 103 at the beginning of
                          Vigil
                          > so that I have time to cense the church and then say the seven Prayers of
                          > Light that are appointed to be read quietly during that Psalm. I too have
                          a
                          > small chapel, so censing probably doesn't take as long as in a full sized
                          > church.
                          >
                          > We do some cutting of the service:
                          >
                          > (a) We sing the standard selected verses of 'Blessed is the Man...' at
                          > Vespers rather than interspersing them in the first kathisma,
                          > (b) We read three Psalms rather than two full kathismata at Matins (a la
                          St
                          > John Maximovitch),
                          > (c) We sing only about a dozen verses of Psalm 118 or about six verses
                          from
                          > the two Polyeleos Psalms before the Evlogitaria, and
                          > (d) We usually read only two troparia each from the Canons of the
                          > Resurrection, Cross & Resurrection, and the Theotokos, therefore omitting
                          > the sometimes appointed third troparion.
                          >
                          > On the other hand, we do certain things that seem often to be omitted in
                          > Russian churches like
                          > (a) We read all the psalm verses at 'Lord, I have cried...' between the
                          two
                          > initially sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                          > (b) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on 'Lord, I have cried...',
                          > (c) We read all the Anavathmoi Hymns,
                          > (d) We read Psalm 50,
                          > (e) We read all the psalm verses at the Praises between the two initially
                          > sung verses and the verses on the stichera,
                          > (f) We do not abbreviate the appointed stichra on the Praises.
                          >
                          > I trhink that it is very interested to hear what other Parishes do.
                          >
                          > In Christ's Love
                          >
                          > Priest David Straut
                          > Orthodox Church of St Elizabeth the New-Martyr (ROCOR)
                          > Somerville, New Jersey
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "boulia_1" <eledkovsky@...>
                          > To: <ustav@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 1:08 PM
                          > Subject: [ustav] Psalm texts: how and what to cut (multiple questions)
                          >
                          >
                          > > Dear Rev. Fathers and all Ustavniki:
                          > >
                          > > For those parts of the services that draw upon the Psalms (I know,
                          > > that's pretty much everything), what are the rules for 'cutting'?
                          > >
                          > > I am thinking specifically about the "Prednachinatil'niy Psalom" (103)
                          > > as well as "Hvalite imya Gospodnya" sung at Polyeleos, though other
                          > > examples (102 - 1st Antiphon in Liturgy) are out there.
                          > >
                          > > In my parish, at Great Vespers, it is the norm to sing quite a few
                          > > verses from Psalm 103; many more than we ever sang in Synod or SF. We
                          > > keep at it LONG after our tiny church has been thoroughly censed.
                          > > Since we don't cut much at all (we sing all stikhiri, read all canons
                          > > in full, no skipping katavasia, sing the 17th Kathisma when appointed,
                          > > etc.) and our evening services are LONG, I'm starting to think if we
                          > > might pare down our proemial psalm. It just seems that we go on and on
                          > > and that the service doesn't start to flow until after we finish that
                          > > Psalm. It doesn't feel right to me. What are your opinions?
                          > >
                          > > QUESTION TWO, related: A composer/arranger I know who is trying his
                          > > hand at church music (no comment about his qualifications to do so...)
                          > > asked me how does one choose verses for "Hvalite..." as he (and I)
                          > > have sung longer and shorter versions of said. What are the rules or
                          > > traditions?
                          > >
                          > > QUESTION THREE, also related: Same said dabbler thinks that it is
                          > > permissible to 'cut' "Vo Tsarstviye Tvoem" (The beatitudes): the 3rd
                          > > usual Antiphon of Divine Liturgy. I disagreed, explaining that the
                          > > text is not a Psalm but Gospel-based, and also explaining that verses
                          > > are appointed to be read, etc. But he claims to have sung a piece by
                          > > Chesnokov where this was done: my guess is it is possible a "konsert"
                          > > may exist based on excerpts of this text, but one would not correctly
                          > > use an abbreviated setting of the Beatitudes as the 3rd Antiphon. I
                          > > know that, strictly speaking, I am right (where would you insert the
                          > > troparia!), but am I too strict? Would it ever be permissible to
                          > > abbreviate the Beatitudes (never mind the Tsar's Capella precedents!)
                          > >
                          > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
                          > >
                          > > In Christ's love,
                          > > Elizabeth
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          > > CONTACT LIST OWNER: ustav-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > > URL to archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ustav
                          > >
                          > > More ustav information and service texts:
                          > > http://www.orthodox.net/ustav
                          > > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Post message: ustav@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subscribe: ustav-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          >
                          > More ustav information and service texts:
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                          > http://www.orthodox.net/services
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Fr. John R. Shaw
                          ... troparia on ... A point that is now often overlooked, is that the Troparia on the Beatitudes were traditionally not *read*, but *sung*. In the musical
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                            Fr. Gregory W. wrote:

                            > At the Liturgy we always sing the Typical psalms in full and the
                            troparia on
                            > the Bestitudes are read -

                            A point that is now often overlooked, is that the Troparia on the
                            Beatitudes were traditionally not *read*, but *sung*. In the musical
                            manuscripts they are written out with full musical notation.

                            Imagine how different the feeling would be if, at Vespers, the
                            Sticheras at "Lord I have cried" were all only recited -- so that the
                            choir sang "Both now and ever...", but then the reader only recited the
                            Dogmatic while the Vesper Entrance took place.

                            On days when only our chanter sings the Divine Liturgy, he sings both
                            the verses of the Beatitudes, *and* the Troparia that go with them.
                            This does *not* increase the length of the service notably. [On
                            Sundays, the choir sings the Beatitudes without Troparia].

                            In Christ
                            Fr. John R. Shaw
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... elaborate ... something I ... Until relatively modern times, and to this day in some places, the short responses ( Lord have mercy , To Thee, O Lord ,
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                              Fr. David Straut wrote:

                              > I think that one of the things that makes Vigil longer is the more
                              elaborate
                              > melodies to which we sing the 'Lord, have mercies.' But this is
                              something I
                              > think it is hard for choirs and choir directors to let go of.

                              Until relatively modern times, and to this day in some places, the
                              short responses ("Lord have mercy", "To Thee, O Lord", "Amen" and the
                              like) were sung by the whole congregation. In many churches a good
                              number of people are in the habit of "singing along" at these simple
                              responses, -- so long as they are kept simple! Making them into
                              elaborate choral pieces, of course, not only discourages anyone from
                              trying to sing along, but also it adds more time than one might think,
                              to the total length of the service.

                              Though some like the idea of having a Divine Liturgy take 3 hours or
                              more, the result is often that people will come in late or leave early,
                              instead of staying for the whole service.

                              "Watch the seconds, and the minutes [let alone hours!] will take care
                              of themselves".

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • Theophan
                              Father John Shaw wrote, ... the Troparia on the Beatitudes were traditionally not *read*, but *sung*. In the musical manuscripts they are written out with full
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                                Father John Shaw wrote,

                                ... the Troparia on the Beatitudes were traditionally not *read*,
                                but *sung*. In the musical manuscripts they are written out with
                                full musical notation.

                                Are there parishes that do this? We alternate between the choir singing the
                                Beatitudes and a reader chanting the troparia.

                                If a parish were to sing the troparia, how would they do it? What would the
                                melodies be for the troparia, from the tones, and are they always specified?
                                Would the choir sing both the Beatitudes and the troparia, with only the
                                changing melodies differentiating the two types of material, or would there
                                be an attempt to sing it antiphonally somehow? Or have a reader sing it
                                instead of chant it?

                                Thanks!

                                Theophan Dort
                              • Reader Michael J. Bishop
                                In my years as an Orthodox (or even Byzantine Rite Catholic), I know personally only one parish that reads the Troparia during the Beatitudes. A reader chants
                                Message 15 of 15 , Sep 16, 2002
                                  In my years as an Orthodox (or even Byzantine Rite Catholic), I know personally
                                  only one parish that reads the Troparia during the Beatitudes. A reader chants
                                  the Troparia and the choir sings the verses. This is St. Seraphim Cathedral
                                  (OCA) in Dallas. This is a practice which I miss. I did not notice any
                                  differences in the tunes, but then at that time I did not know what the Eight
                                  Tones were. I did not realize that each Tone was actually a different tune.

                                  I have also been exposed to the various Ambon prayers. Except for two parishes,
                                  I have not heard most of them. At another parish we did hear the one for the
                                  feast of St. Basil.

                                  Reader Michael


                                  Theophan wrote:

                                  > Father John Shaw wrote,
                                  >
                                  > ... the Troparia on the Beatitudes were traditionally not *read*,
                                  > but *sung*. In the musical manuscripts they are written out with
                                  > full musical notation.
                                  >
                                  > Are there parishes that do this? We alternate between the choir singing the
                                  > Beatitudes and a reader chanting the troparia.
                                  >
                                  > If a parish were to sing the troparia, how would they do it? What would the
                                  > melodies be for the troparia, from the tones, and are they always specified?
                                  > Would the choir sing both the Beatitudes and the troparia, with only the
                                  > changing melodies differentiating the two types of material, or would there
                                  > be an attempt to sing it antiphonally somehow? Or have a reader sing it
                                  > instead of chant it?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks!
                                  >
                                  > Theophan Dort

                                  --
                                  Reader Michael J. Bishop
                                  12 E Read St
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