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R: [ustav] Ravenna: "The Immaculate Mysteries were imparted to Roman Catholics?" by Archimandrite George of Grigoriou

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  • ieromonaco Gabriele
    Father Seraphim help us! we are being served a nice, huge can of worms, shaken, pressed and overflowing. From what I understood neither Demetri Pliatsikas
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 5, 2002
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      Father Seraphim help us!

      we are being served a nice, huge can of worms, shaken, pressed and
      overflowing. From what I understood neither Demetri Pliatsikas nor
      Archimandrite George were present in Ravenna. I wasn't there either
      (usually I meet His Holiness in Venice, just like I did this last time, on
      his name's day), so I am not an eye witness. If I were an eye witness of
      such "sad and scandalous events" (as from mr. Pliatsikas' writing) I would
      not complain with anybody else other than the Patriarch himself.
      whoever dares to play the role of champion of orthodoxy should be VERY
      careful as to verify the source of his/her informations and to leave
      personal emotions and points of view out of the "battle field". In the end,
      what do we have here? A reaction to a given fact, proved true through
      evidence? The very article by Archim. George is titled "The Immaculate
      Mysteries were imparted to Roman Catholics?". That is a question (if I am
      not mistaken) not an assertion.
      Forgive me for bringing this up on the Ustav. This is totally off topic and
      I do hope Fr. Seraphim (if and when he happens to read this) will close this
      thread right from the start.

      asking your prayers,
      hmnk gabriele
      orthodox Archdiocese of Italy
      E.P.
    • orthodoxanalysis
      Dear Fr. Gabriel, It wasn t necessary for myself or Archimandrite George to be there, for it was televised on national TV here in Greece - NET TV. So, the
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 8, 2002
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        Dear Fr. Gabriel,

        It wasn't necessary for myself or Archimandrite George to be there,
        for it was televised on national TV here in Greece - NET TV. So, the
        scandal that would have been limited to a few was projected to
        countless. Thus, besides being a matter more generally for the whole
        ecclesia - that is, the ecclesiology of the Church and the question of
        communion - this particular violation and scandal has become a concern
        for all us, not least of all because many Roman Catholics were
        encouraged in their delusion to believe that "we are one in the
        spirit" already, etc. etc. etc. Furthermore, the recklessness and
        disreguared shown to the Holy Mysteries - in the company of hundreds
        of papists and even muslims (!!!) - whatever happened to "the doors
        the doors"? - is a scandal to the faithful pleoroma of the Orthodox
        Church.

        So, dear Father, the can of worms was served up by the Patriarch when
        he imparted the Holy Mysteries to Roman Catholics - who made their
        sign of the cross right in front of him!! - and not by a few laymen or
        monks who are deeply concerned and even restrained in their
        reaction.

        The evidence, I am hopeful, shall be forthcoming for all those who did
        not witness the sad event on TV via the internet. It is amazing
        that there is so much willful ignorance and doubt being thrown up
        about this - which, again, I repeat, was televised on national TV here
        in Greece.

        As for the question mark (?) of the good Archimandrite, we can be sure
        that he put it there for the sake of the Patriarch and not to
        undermine the Truth. He is concerned for the good order of the Church
        and its peace and unity, and not to create scandals, and thus he
        always bends over backwards to allow for the error to be reputiated
        easily and quickly. If he had any doubt that the facts were otherwise,
        he would not have written the article.

        Fr. Seraphim, I beg you not to end this thread, for the sake of our
        "egrigorsi" (watchfulness) and mindfulness of the events of the times,
        which concern us all DIRECTLY, for it concerns the Holy ORthodox Faith
        we all are called to defend and preserve.

        Demetri Pliatsikas






        --- In ustav@y..., "ieromonaco Gabriele" <ieromonacogabriele@l...>
        wrote:
        > Father Seraphim help us!
        >
        > we are being served a nice, huge can of worms, shaken, pressed and
        > overflowing. From what I understood neither Demetri Pliatsikas
        nor
        > Archimandrite George were present in Ravenna. I wasn't there either
        > (usually I meet His Holiness in Venice, just like I did this last
        time, on
        > his name's day), so I am not an eye witness. If I were an eye
        witness of
        > such "sad and scandalous events" (as from mr. Pliatsikas' writing) I
        would
        > not complain with anybody else other than the Patriarch himself.
        > whoever dares to play the role of champion of orthodoxy should be
        VERY
        > careful as to verify the source of his/her informations and to leave
        > personal emotions and points of view out of the "battle field". In
        the end,
        > what do we have here? A reaction to a given fact, proved true
        through
        > evidence? The very article by Archim. George is titled "The
        Immaculate
        > Mysteries were imparted to Roman Catholics?". That is a question
        (if I am
        > not mistaken) not an assertion.
        > Forgive me for bringing this up on the Ustav. This is totally off
        topic and
        > I do hope Fr. Seraphim (if and when he happens to read this) will
        close this
        > thread right from the start.
        >
        > asking your prayers,
        > hmnk gabriele
        > orthodox Archdiocese of Italy
        > E.P.
      • Margaret Lark
        From: orthodoxanalysis Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:34:23 -0000 ... Obviously, this isn t going to go away, so I would like to add
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 8, 2002
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          From: "orthodoxanalysis" <orthodoxanalysis@...>
          Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:34:23 -0000

          >It wasn't necessary for myself or Archimandrite George to be there,
          >for it was televised on national TV here in Greece - NET TV....

          Obviously, this isn't going to go away, so I would like to add a few comments.

          Number One, there ARE other fora on which to post this kind of thing. As Fr. Seraphim pointed out, this list is supposed to be about typicon/ustav questions.

          Second, for what it's worth, this event was played up in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese publication, "Orthodox Observer." So yes, evidently it did take place.

          >...many Roman Catholics were
          >encouraged in their delusion to believe that "we are one in the
          >spirit" already....

          I've heard this from members of my own family, as well as from Latins in the community where my parish is located. It *is* a very dangerous delusion, the more so because I see a number of Orthodox falling into the same delusion (eg, "We all worship the same God, so what difference does it make?" - !!!).

          >Fr. Seraphim, I beg you not to end this thread, for the sake of our
          >"egrigorsi" (watchfulness)...

          And again - that's not the point of THIS list. Take your points onto Orthodox-synod or Orthodox-ROCOR, which are discussion lists.

          Father Seraphim, please pardon my stepping into your shoes on this one - I did want to respond to this individual on the several points he raised, but also to repeat your reasons for wanting to end this thread, namely, its inappropriateness to this particular list.

          Thank you for your patience with a sinful woman.

          Kissing your right hand,
          Margaret
        • Ploverleigh@aol.com
          In a message dated 8/8/02 3:35:44 AM, orthodoxanalysis@email.com writes:
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 15, 2002
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            In a message dated 8/8/02 3:35:44 AM, orthodoxanalysis@... writes:

            << Furthermore, the recklessness and
            disreguared shown to the Holy Mysteries - in the company of hundreds
            of papists and even muslims (!!!) - whatever happened to "the doors
            the doors"? - is a scandal to the faithful pleoroma of the Orthodox
            Church. >>

            Honi soit qui mal y pense.

            No matter what a person does, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will be offended at it.

            It's a situtation that's existed in the Church from the time of our Lord
            Himself onwards.
          • Ploverleigh@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/8/02 3:35:44 AM, orthodoxanalysis@email.com writes:
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 15, 2002
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              In a message dated 8/8/02 3:35:44 AM, orthodoxanalysis@... writes:

              << Fr. Seraphim, I beg you not to end this thread, for the sake of our
              "egrigorsi" (watchfulness) >>

              Watchfulness a la Gladys Kravitz?
            • JAPROTO@aol.com
              I had supposed that this particular line of discussion had been discontinued; at least I have not responded any further to it. But now, I feel that I must. Ah,
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 15, 2002
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                I had supposed that this particular line of discussion had been discontinued;
                at least I have not responded any further to it. But now, I feel that I must.

                Ah, Gladys Kravitz! The premiere "nosey neighbor". But, consider at least
                some of the objects and situations Mrs. Kravitz saw appearing (and
                disappearing) at the house across the street: a pink polka-dotted elephant,
                an "instant" landscaping job and a sky-high beanstalk to name just three!
                Now, unless one has the intellect of a flatworm or is in fact, mentally
                "flatline", I cannot imagine that even our most aesthetic brethren would fail
                to evince some interest in what was happening across the street.

                There is a time for introspection and a time for external vigilance; they are
                not mutually exclusive and, in today's culture, I would suggest that the
                latter is especially important. As for enjoying some sort of "thrill" at the
                disclosure of a scandal, that may be so for some, but most of us - and I
                include myself in this - are saddened when those within the Church, clergy or
                lay, are guilty of scandalous actions. It is most distressing and hurtful to
                all, the individuals involved and the Body of Christ. No "joy" and certainly
                no "tittilation" obtains under such circumstances.

                However, that being said, let us not confuse an attempt to heal a scandal
                with the attempt to hide one. I would direct my brethens' attentions to the
                current situation in the Catholic Church in this country. That is scandal
                upon scandal upon scandal which has been very badly handled by the leaders of
                that Church at each and every level of both the scandal and the hierarchy.

                To begin with, the hierarchs of the Church did little or nothing to stop the
                takeover of the seminaries by homosexual activists, a fact which has been
                well and truthfully documented in the book, "Goodbye Good Men". Why the
                bishops did not act is a mystery. In some cases, they were sympathetic with
                the movement but in most cases, I believe they were either ignorant (in many
                instances by choice) or they could not bring themselves to "air the Church's
                dirty linen" in public.

                Then, when the fruits of the first scandal began to appear with the
                increasing number of adolescent boys who were being molested by homosexual
                priests*, the bishops made their second mistake. They did not address the
                matter forcefully - again in fear of the scandal that would occur - but moved
                these predators into other parishes where they were free to continue to
                defile the young. (*This is NOT a "guess"; statistics reveal that the
                profession with the largest number of AIDS patients in the 1980s was that of
                Catholic priest!)

                And, finally, in the end, as the whole thing comes crashing down, they are
                still trying to "duck and cover" in hopes that it will all just go away. In
                their response, they have lost any credibility they may have had not only
                with their own faithful, but the rest of the country and the world. Among the
                tragic results of this mishandling of these scandals has been a movement by
                dedicated lay Catholics to gain power in their Church in ways which are
                distinctly Protestant in nature. It was ignorance - real or desired - of the
                original scandal in the seminaries that led to the second scandal of priests
                molesting young boys. And it was a desire to avoid scandal that led to the
                coverup which has, in turn, resulted in the final scandal.

                All of this could have been avoided if there had been the type of vigilance
                that has been spoken of in response to this posting. If the bishops had
                believed the laity knew of what was happening in the seminaries, how long do
                you think they would have permitted it to continue? And if the laity had not
                learned about the seminaries but had learned about priests molesting their
                children, do you believe that the bishops would have dared to simply
                re-assign such men to another parish where they could continue their actions?
                I seriously doubt it. And now, at the end of the whole sorry thing, what is
                there left: scandal upon scandal upon scandal with guilt-ridden hierarchs and
                disillusioned, angry lay people. This is the eventual cost of a lack of
                vigilance and a failure to address problems by all within the Church.

                When a hierarch is accused or suspected of actions unbecoming to his office
                and he is innocent, he simply should state so and the laity is bound to
                believe him until and unless there is credible proof to the contrary (of
                course, if that happens, then the man is not worthy of his office and should
                be removed). If, on the other hand, he has acted unwisely (and we are all
                fallible), there is nothing unbecoming in accepting responsiblity and making
                atonement where necessary. And if he has been ignorant of a situation (such
                as might have been the case in the environmental conference), then he needs
                to educate himself to be sure that he does not place himself in such a
                position again. BUT no hierarch or anyone else has the right to tell the
                Faithful - clergy OR lay - that it is "none of our business" - because it IS
                "our business".

                Finally, if I wish to be "thrilled", there are plenty of scary movies and b
                ooks out there to raise my blood pressure (or I can go clean my basement!). I
                do not want there to be scandal in the Church, but not wanting it to be there
                does alter the situation if and when it exists. Like an infection, such
                things are better addressed when they are still small in scope before they
                can poison the whole Body.

                God bless.

                M. Valerie
              • asp5@aol.com
                Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ, Just because one person disregards the directive of the moderator does not mean the rest of us should then discount it.
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 15, 2002
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                  Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
                  Just because one person disregards the directive of the moderator does not
                  mean the rest of us should then discount it. Again, I ask please let this go;
                  it is not for this forum.
                  In Christ,
                  Anna
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