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Re: [ustav]Dormition stichera

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  • Philip Majkrzak
    Dear friends, A friend asked me to post the following question: Why is there a descrepency concerning the melody of stichera for Great Vespers for Dormition?
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1 3:53 PM
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      Dear friends,

      A friend asked me to post the following question:

      Why is there a descrepency concerning the melody of stichera for Great
      Vespers for Dormition? Though all (English) sources indicate Tone 1,
      they begin with "O Marvelous Wonder," which would indicate the Tone 8
      Podoben. In addition, Fr. Ephrem Lash's website says "original melody"
      (or something close), while the heading in Fr. Seraphim Nassar's book
      indicates the opposite. Any clarification would be much appreciated.
      Thank you.

      Sincerely,
      Philip J. Majkrzak


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    • Carol A Surgant
      On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Philip Majkrzak ... indicate Tone ... indicate the Tone 8 Podoben. In addition, Fr. Ephrem Lash s website says
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1 5:42 PM
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        On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Philip Majkrzak
        <philipjm711@...> writes:
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > A friend asked me to post the following question:
        >
        > Why is there a descrepency concerning the melody of stichera for
        > Great Vespers for Dormition? Though all (English) sources
        indicate Tone
        > 1, they begin with "O Marvelous Wonder," which would
        indicate the Tone 8 Podoben. In addition, Fr. Ephrem
        Lash's website says "original melody"
        > (or something close), while the heading in Fr. Seraphim
        Nassar's book indicates the opposite. Any clarification
        would be much appreciated.
        > Thank you.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        > Philip J. Majkrzak
        >
        >
        The correct tone is Tone 1 in both Greek and Slavonic sources
        that I have. The melody name has several tranlations in English
        and is sometimes called "O Wondrous Miracle"
        or "O Marvelous Wonder", or "O Wondrous Marvel".
        This is a different special melody from the Tone 8 pododen of
        similar name. A beautiful version is found in the Kiev Caves Lavra
        feast day book which has been widely circulated in Xerox form
        among ROCOR musicians.
        I have a setting of this arrangement in English if you're interested.

        There seems to be confusion about these two melodies in many
        sources. The Festal Menaion of Mother Mary gives on Sept 8, for the
        Lauds(Praises) of Matins: Tone 8,(to the special melody,
        O marvellous wonder...) with a footnote that reads:
        in certain editions, Tone One.

        Carol Surgant
        St. John Chrysostom Russian Orthodox Church, House Springs, MO.

        ________________________________________________________________
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      • chantermt@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/1/02 5:54:28 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Glory to Jesus Christ! Here is a case where the original languages would make a huge
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1 5:42 PM
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          In a message dated 8/1/02 5:54:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
          philipjm711@... writes:


          > Why is there a descrepency concerning the melody of stichera for Great
          > Vespers for Dormition? Though all (English) sources indicate Tone 1,
          > they begin with "O Marvelous Wonder," which would indicate the Tone 8
          > Podoben. In addition, Fr. Ephrem Lash's website says "original melody"
          > (or something close), while the heading in Fr. Seraphim Nassar's book
          > indicates the opposite. Any clarification would be much appreciated.
          >

          Glory to Jesus Christ!

          Here is a case where the original languages would make a huge difference.

          The stichera for O Lord, I Have Cried on the feast of the Dormition are in
          Tone 1, sung to the samopodoben "O divnoje chudo." This melody was written
          for these texts. It is then reprised on certain other feasts of the
          Theotokos: Sept. 8, Nativity of the Theotokos, at the Praises; Oct. 1,
          Protection of the Theotokos, at OLIHC; and Nov. 21, at the Entrance of the
          Theotokos, at OLIHC.

          The tone 8 podoben is not "O divnoje chudo," but rather "O preslavnaho
          chusdese" (which is a samopodoben sung at the Praises on the Exaltation of
          the Life-Giving Cross, Sept. 14). Because these two phrases are often
          translated similarly, the confusion of melodies is created.

          I hope that this clarifies, rather than confuses.

          May God give all of us a Dormition Fast leading to repentance and joy.

          (Prof.) J. Michael Thompson
          Byzantine Catholic Seminary
          Pittsburgh, PA


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Celeste M. Englehardt
          Dear Carol, I read your e-mail on ustav and I m interested in the English setting that you have. Let me know how I can receive it. I ll be happy to send $
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1 7:59 PM
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            Dear Carol,

            I read your e-mail on ustav and I'm interested in the English setting that
            you have. Let me know how I can receive it. I'll be happy to send $ for
            copied and postage.

            Celeste


            ----------
            From: Carol A Surgant <casurgant@...>
            To: ustav@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ustav]Dormition stichera
            Date: Thu, Aug 1, 2002, 8:42 PM



            On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Philip Majkrzak
            <philipjm711@...> writes:
            > Dear friends,
            >
            > A friend asked me to post the following question:
            >
            > Why is there a descrepency concerning the melody of stichera for
            > Great Vespers for Dormition? Though all (English) sources
            indicate Tone
            > 1, they begin with "O Marvelous Wonder," which would
            indicate the Tone 8 Podoben. In addition, Fr. Ephrem
            Lash's website says "original melody"
            > (or something close), while the heading in Fr. Seraphim
            Nassar's book indicates the opposite. Any clarification
            would be much appreciated.
            > Thank you.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            > Philip J. Majkrzak
            >
            >
            The correct tone is Tone 1 in both Greek and Slavonic sources
            that I have. The melody name has several tranlations in English
            and is sometimes called "O Wondrous Miracle"
            or "O Marvelous Wonder", or "O Wondrous Marvel".
            This is a different special melody from the Tone 8 pododen of
            similar name. A beautiful version is found in the Kiev Caves Lavra
            feast day book which has been widely circulated in Xerox form
            among ROCOR musicians.
            I have a setting of this arrangement in English if you're interested.

            There seems to be confusion about these two melodies in many
            sources. The Festal Menaion of Mother Mary gives on Sept 8, for the
            Lauds(Praises) of Matins: Tone 8,(to the special melody,
            O marvellous wonder...) with a footnote that reads:
            in certain editions, Tone One.

            Carol Surgant
            St. John Chrysostom Russian Orthodox Church, House Springs, MO.

            ________________________________________________________________
            GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
            Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ploverleigh@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/1/02 3:54:19 PM, philipjm711@yahoo.com writes:
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 2 5:14 AM
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              In a message dated 8/1/02 3:54:19 PM, philipjm711@... writes:

              << Though all (English) sources indicate Tone 1,
              they begin with "O Marvelous Wonder," which would indicate the Tone 8
              Podoben. >>

              There is both a Tone 1 Podoben and a Tone 8 Podoben for this in Byzantine and
              various Slavic chants.

              Byzantine goes something like this (initial phrase).

              Tone 8:

              O tou pa - ra - dox - ou thav - ma - tos!
              G D D E G F E D C


              Tone 1:
              O tou pa - ra - dox - ou thav - ma - tos!
              A G F G F E D D G A A

              Hope this helps.
            • Ploverleigh@aol.com
              In a message dated 8/1/02 5:43:15 PM, chantermt@aol.com writes:
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 2 5:25 AM
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                In a message dated 8/1/02 5:43:15 PM, chantermt@... writes:

                << The tone 8 podoben is not [Tone 1] "O divnoje chudo," but rather "O
                preslavnaho
                chusdese".... >>

                FWIW, both 8 September (Tone 1) and 14 September (Tone 8) both begin, "O tou
                paradoxou thavmatos" in Greek. (FWIW, the MM/BK Festal Menaion has a footnote
                saying that one or the other of them is assigned the other Tone in different
                books.)

                That they are not identically rendered in Slavonic may indicate the folly of
                trying to be absolutely consistent in English versions! Certainly the Church
                has been quite happy to have inconsistency in Slavonic, and it hasn't
                collapsed yet! :-)
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