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Re: [usage-centered] Introduction

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  • Nuno J. Nunes
    on 12/12/00 23:05, Jeff Patton at jeff621@yahoo.com wrote: Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the testability of the models.
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 13, 2000
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      on 12/12/00 23:05, Jeff Patton at jeff621@... wrote:

      Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the
      testability of the models. Can you build test cases for analysis and design
      level models? Whether they are for user interface design purposes or not
      doesn't matter.

      Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent usability evaluation of
      prototypes are a way of testing user interface models... I don't believe
      they match the initial idea behind XP... For instance, can you break those
      tests?

      This and other issues where discussed in a workshop at UML'2000 in Kent - UK
      last September - eXtreme Programming and Modeling
      (http://www.extrememodeling.org/XpmWorkshop.html). There is also a site from
      the workshop organizers about this subject http://www.extrememodeling.org/

      Cheers
      Nuno
      --
      Nuno Jardim Nunes
      University of Madeira - Teaching Assistant
      Mathematics Dep. - Computer Science Unit
      phone: +351 291 705160 (direct) 705150 (secretary)
      fax: +351 291 705199
      URL: http://math.uma.pt/njn/
      Address: Campus Universitário da Penteada
      9000 - Funchal - Portugal
    • John Sisk
      Hi Nuno, You bring up an issue I hadn t considered fully , ie testing the model. Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org which opens up a new learning
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 15, 2000
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        Hi Nuno,

        You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie testing the model.
        Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org which opens up a new
        learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting discussions here at work
        :)

        Regards
        John Sisk

        <snip>
        Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the
        testability of the models. Can you build test cases for analysis and design
        level models? Whether they are for user interface design purposes or not
        doesn't matter.

        Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent usability evaluation of
        prototypes are a way of testing user interface models... I don't believe
        they match the initial idea behind XP... For instance, can you break those
        tests?
        </snip>
      • Jeff Patton
        Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I m not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 15, 2000
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          Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I'm
          not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I
          work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
          making things testable. I've seen it impose a
          detrimental effect on usability at times.
          Specifically, I've seen UI be implemented a particular
          way *because it's testable* not because it best
          supports what the user is trying to accomplish.

          Basically that points to keeping our eye on the goal -
          to create usable, good software. XP is a means to an
          end - not an end in and of itself.

          </twoCents>

          thanks,

          -Jeff



          --- John Sisk <john.sisk@...> wrote:
          > Hi Nuno,
          >
          > You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie
          > testing the model.
          > Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org
          > which opens up a new
          > learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting
          > discussions here at work
          > :)
          >
          > Regards
          > John Sisk
          >
          > <snip>
          > Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front
          > modeling approach is the
          > testability of the models. Can you build test cases
          > for analysis and design
          > level models? Whether they are for user interface
          > design purposes or not
          > doesn't matter.
          >
          > Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent
          > usability evaluation of
          > prototypes are a way of testing user interface
          > models... I don't believe
          > they match the initial idea behind XP... For
          > instance, can you break those
          > tests?
          > </snip>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Nuno J. Nunes
          ... My comment wasn t about usability... It was about XP and lot s of people out there saying that they are doing XP when in fact they found XP to be a cool
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 17, 2000
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            on 16/12/00 00:35, Jeff Patton at jeff621@... wrote:

            > Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I'm
            > not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I
            > work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
            > making things testable. I've seen it impose a
            > detrimental effect on usability at times.
            > Specifically, I've seen UI be implemented a particular
            > way *because it's testable* not because it best
            > supports what the user is trying to accomplish.

            My comment wasn't about usability... It was about XP and lot's of people out
            there saying that they are doing XP when in fact they found XP to be a
            "cool" name to call their ad-hoc chaotic ways of working... [I'm of course
            not talking about anybody in particular].

            XP means taking every programming practice to an extreme. Let's say
            testing... You have to test everything and you can't write code unless you
            write a test case and try to break it. XP is also against any kind of
            modeling at higher levels of abstraction (i.e. you can draw a couple of UML
            diagrams if they represent implementation level models). This is highly
            against any model-based approach to software development - including usage
            centered design and others.

            > Basically that points to keeping our eye on the goal -
            > to create usable, good software. XP is a means to an
            > end - not an end in and of itself.

            If you mean that one can use some of XP practices within a different
            development approach... That's Ok but that's not XP. The only thing new to
            XP is taking every practice to an extreme... If you only take some you're
            not doing XP... But you can develop good and usable software.

            Nuno

            >
            > --- John Sisk <john.sisk@...> wrote:
            >> Hi Nuno,
            >>
            >> You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie
            >> testing the model.
            >> Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org
            >> which opens up a new
            >> learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting
            >> discussions here at work
            >> :)
            >>
            >> Regards
            >> John Sisk
            >>
            >> <snip>
            >> Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front
            >> modeling approach is the
            >> testability of the models. Can you build test cases
            >> for analysis and design
            >> level models? Whether they are for user interface
            >> design purposes or not
            >> doesn't matter.
            >>
            >> Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent
            >> usability evaluation of
            >> prototypes are a way of testing user interface
            >> models... I don't believe
            >> they match the initial idea behind XP... For
            >> instance, can you break those
            >> tests?
            >> </snip>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
            > http://shopping.yahoo.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Nuno Jardim Nunes
            University of Madeira - Teaching Assistant
            Mathematics Dep. - Computer Science Unit
            phone: +351 291 705160 (direct) 705150 (secretary)
            fax: +351 291 705199
            URL: http://www.math.uma.pt/njn/
            Address: Campus Universitário da Penteada
            9000 - Funchal - Portugal
          • stanley_sutton
            I ve been programming for a living for around 26 years now. I learned to program 38 years ago in abstract machine language ( no computer to run it on). Most
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 18, 2002
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              I've been programming for a living for around 26 years now. I learned to program 38 years ago in abstract machine language ( no computer to run it on). Most recently (last 10 years or so), I've been doing object oriented programming in C++. The majority of what I've been doing has only had error messages for a user interface, with a few exceptions. What little GUI work I've done has been with Borland, MS VC++, and MS VB. It has all been by following the examples of what I've seen, and hasn't been desingned at all.

              Since I value design very highly in building classes in C++, I was very glad to run across _Software_for_Use_ by Constantine & Lockwood (refered from the Bruce Eckel's site, by the way). Since I have some of Constantine's structured programming books in my library, I ordered it without looking, feeling confident it would be a good reference book, at the very least.

              I'm currently up to chapter 10, and spending as much time reading as I can. I hope there are a few people still reading/using this group, as I believe I'll have a fair number of questions.
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