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Introduction

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  • john.sisk@radsoft.com
    Hi there, I ve just joined the list so Hello to everyone on the list . I m a web developer with JSP and Java experience. For the last few weeks I ve been
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 12, 2000
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      Hi there,

      I've just joined the list so "Hello to everyone on the list".

      I'm a web developer with JSP and Java experience. For the last few
      weeks I've been eagerly reading Software for Use. It seems that Usage-
      centered Design will fit in very well with our XP process so I'm
      anxious to implement what I've learned so far in our next few
      iterations. So I'm looking forward to hearing how it's been working
      for others...

      Regards
      John Sisk
    • Jeff Patton
      John, This group s been somewhat inactive of late. But I ve found that if you post a question, you ll get a response and an opinion or two. I have a question
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 12, 2000
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        John,

        This group's been somewhat inactive of late. But I've
        found that if you post a question, you'll get a
        response and an opinion or two.

        I have a question for you regarding your comment about
        usage-centered design fitting into your XP
        environment: Given that XP attempts to avoid a lot of
        the up-front design trappings found in other
        development methodologies, do you foresee any
        challenges taking advantage of some of the up-front
        thinking found in usage-centered design?

        I'm curious to get your opinion given your XP culture
        there... since I think XP implementation varies from
        company to company.

        thanks,

        -Jeff



        --- john.sisk@... wrote:
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I've just joined the list so "Hello to everyone on
        > the list".
        >
        > I'm a web developer with JSP and Java experience.
        > For the last few
        > weeks I've been eagerly reading Software for Use. It
        > seems that Usage-
        > centered Design will fit in very well with our XP
        > process so I'm
        > anxious to implement what I've learned so far in our
        > next few
        > iterations. So I'm looking forward to hearing how
        > it's been working
        > for others...
        >
        > Regards
        > John Sisk
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
        http://shopping.yahoo.com/
      • John Sisk
        Jeff, Yes, XP does attempt to avoid a lot of the up-front design. However this doesn t mean that no design is done since in effect XP allows us to design
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 12, 2000
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          Jeff,

          Yes, XP does attempt to avoid a lot of the up-front design. However this
          doesn't mean that no design is done since in effect XP allows us to design
          constantly in an iterative process rather than a waterfall process.

          Our current process seems close to Usage-centred design. I think the extra
          steps are deriving the Role Map, breaking our "User Stories" out into
          Essential Use-cases, the Use Case Map and the various Abstract Prototyes. I
          think Abstract Prototypes are going to prove invaluable since they allow us
          to rapidly run through our User Stories in order to make sure we are
          providing what the user needs to complete their task and also providing a
          stage for the client to get a feel for the screens and suggest changes at a
          time when it is relatively easier to make those changes.

          Also, our Planning Game is similar to the Joint Essential Modeling process
          as outlined in chapter 20.

          I'll keep you posted on how well the two processes integrate.

          Regards
          John Sisk





          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jeff Patton [mailto:jeff621@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:21 PM
          To: usage-centered@egroups.com
          Subject: Re: [usage-centered] Introduction


          John,

          This group's been somewhat inactive of late. But I've
          found that if you post a question, you'll get a
          response and an opinion or two.

          I have a question for you regarding your comment about
          usage-centered design fitting into your XP
          environment: Given that XP attempts to avoid a lot of
          the up-front design trappings found in other
          development methodologies, do you foresee any
          challenges taking advantage of some of the up-front
          thinking found in usage-centered design?

          I'm curious to get your opinion given your XP culture
          there... since I think XP implementation varies from
          company to company.

          thanks,

          -Jeff



          --- john.sisk@... wrote:
          > Hi there,
          >
          > I've just joined the list so "Hello to everyone on
          > the list".
          >
          > I'm a web developer with JSP and Java experience.
          > For the last few
          > weeks I've been eagerly reading Software for Use. It
          > seems that Usage-
          > centered Design will fit in very well with our XP
          > process so I'm
          > anxious to implement what I've learned so far in our
          > next few
          > iterations. So I'm looking forward to hearing how
          > it's been working
          > for others...
          >
          > Regards
          > John Sisk
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
          http://shopping.yahoo.com/
        • Jeff Patton
          Thanks, I ll look for a posting. I should have mentioned, I work in an XP environment as well. In this one it s been tough to inject some organization into
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 12, 2000
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            Thanks, I'll look for a posting.

            I should have mentioned, I work in an XP environment
            as well. In this one it's been tough to inject some
            organization into the design process - at least the UI
            and usability part. If you subscribe to the
            extremeprogramming list, you see lots of folks dealing
            with how tough it is to sell XP into a non-XP
            environment. I see the same thing trying to sell
            usage-centered design into this XP environment. :-)
            Your feedback on its usefulness would be helpful.

            Thanks,

            -Jeff





            --- John Sisk <john.sisk@...> wrote:
            > Jeff,
            >
            > Yes, XP does attempt to avoid a lot of the up-front
            > design. However this
            > doesn't mean that no design is done since in effect
            > XP allows us to design
            > constantly in an iterative process rather than a
            > waterfall process.
            >
            > Our current process seems close to Usage-centred
            > design. I think the extra
            > steps are deriving the Role Map, breaking our "User
            > Stories" out into
            > Essential Use-cases, the Use Case Map and the
            > various Abstract Prototyes. I
            > think Abstract Prototypes are going to prove
            > invaluable since they allow us
            > to rapidly run through our User Stories in order to
            > make sure we are
            > providing what the user needs to complete their task
            > and also providing a
            > stage for the client to get a feel for the screens
            > and suggest changes at a
            > time when it is relatively easier to make those
            > changes.
            >
            > Also, our Planning Game is similar to the Joint
            > Essential Modeling process
            > as outlined in chapter 20.
            >
            > I'll keep you posted on how well the two processes
            > integrate.
            >
            > Regards
            > John Sisk
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Jeff Patton [mailto:jeff621@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:21 PM
            > To: usage-centered@egroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [usage-centered] Introduction
            >
            >
            > John,
            >
            > This group's been somewhat inactive of late. But
            > I've
            > found that if you post a question, you'll get a
            > response and an opinion or two.
            >
            > I have a question for you regarding your comment
            > about
            > usage-centered design fitting into your XP
            > environment: Given that XP attempts to avoid a lot
            > of
            > the up-front design trappings found in other
            > development methodologies, do you foresee any
            > challenges taking advantage of some of the up-front
            > thinking found in usage-centered design?
            >
            > I'm curious to get your opinion given your XP
            > culture
            > there... since I think XP implementation varies from
            > company to company.
            >
            > thanks,
            >
            > -Jeff
            >
            >
            >
            > --- john.sisk@... wrote:
            > > Hi there,
            > >
            > > I've just joined the list so "Hello to everyone on
            > > the list".
            > >
            > > I'm a web developer with JSP and Java experience.
            > > For the last few
            > > weeks I've been eagerly reading Software for Use.
            > It
            > > seems that Usage-
            > > centered Design will fit in very well with our XP
            > > process so I'm
            > > anxious to implement what I've learned so far in
            > our
            > > next few
            > > iterations. So I'm looking forward to hearing how
            > > it's been working
            > > for others...
            > >
            > > Regards
            > > John Sisk
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of
            > Products.
            > http://shopping.yahoo.com/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
            http://shopping.yahoo.com/
          • Nuno J. Nunes
            on 12/12/00 23:05, Jeff Patton at jeff621@yahoo.com wrote: Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the testability of the models.
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 13, 2000
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              on 12/12/00 23:05, Jeff Patton at jeff621@... wrote:

              Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the
              testability of the models. Can you build test cases for analysis and design
              level models? Whether they are for user interface design purposes or not
              doesn't matter.

              Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent usability evaluation of
              prototypes are a way of testing user interface models... I don't believe
              they match the initial idea behind XP... For instance, can you break those
              tests?

              This and other issues where discussed in a workshop at UML'2000 in Kent - UK
              last September - eXtreme Programming and Modeling
              (http://www.extrememodeling.org/XpmWorkshop.html). There is also a site from
              the workshop organizers about this subject http://www.extrememodeling.org/

              Cheers
              Nuno
              --
              Nuno Jardim Nunes
              University of Madeira - Teaching Assistant
              Mathematics Dep. - Computer Science Unit
              phone: +351 291 705160 (direct) 705150 (secretary)
              fax: +351 291 705199
              URL: http://math.uma.pt/njn/
              Address: Campus Universitário da Penteada
              9000 - Funchal - Portugal
            • John Sisk
              Hi Nuno, You bring up an issue I hadn t considered fully , ie testing the model. Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org which opens up a new learning
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 15, 2000
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                Hi Nuno,

                You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie testing the model.
                Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org which opens up a new
                learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting discussions here at work
                :)

                Regards
                John Sisk

                <snip>
                Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front modeling approach is the
                testability of the models. Can you build test cases for analysis and design
                level models? Whether they are for user interface design purposes or not
                doesn't matter.

                Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent usability evaluation of
                prototypes are a way of testing user interface models... I don't believe
                they match the initial idea behind XP... For instance, can you break those
                tests?
                </snip>
              • Jeff Patton
                Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I m not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 15, 2000
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                  Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I'm
                  not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I
                  work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
                  making things testable. I've seen it impose a
                  detrimental effect on usability at times.
                  Specifically, I've seen UI be implemented a particular
                  way *because it's testable* not because it best
                  supports what the user is trying to accomplish.

                  Basically that points to keeping our eye on the goal -
                  to create usable, good software. XP is a means to an
                  end - not an end in and of itself.

                  </twoCents>

                  thanks,

                  -Jeff



                  --- John Sisk <john.sisk@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Nuno,
                  >
                  > You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie
                  > testing the model.
                  > Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org
                  > which opens up a new
                  > learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting
                  > discussions here at work
                  > :)
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > John Sisk
                  >
                  > <snip>
                  > Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front
                  > modeling approach is the
                  > testability of the models. Can you build test cases
                  > for analysis and design
                  > level models? Whether they are for user interface
                  > design purposes or not
                  > doesn't matter.
                  >
                  > Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent
                  > usability evaluation of
                  > prototypes are a way of testing user interface
                  > models... I don't believe
                  > they match the initial idea behind XP... For
                  > instance, can you break those
                  > tests?
                  > </snip>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                  http://shopping.yahoo.com/
                • Nuno J. Nunes
                  ... My comment wasn t about usability... It was about XP and lot s of people out there saying that they are doing XP when in fact they found XP to be a cool
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 17, 2000
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                    on 16/12/00 00:35, Jeff Patton at jeff621@... wrote:

                    > Just to add my 2 cents to testability and UI - and I'm
                    > not sure it pertains directly to extremeModeling: I
                    > work in an XP shop, and indeed there is a focus on
                    > making things testable. I've seen it impose a
                    > detrimental effect on usability at times.
                    > Specifically, I've seen UI be implemented a particular
                    > way *because it's testable* not because it best
                    > supports what the user is trying to accomplish.

                    My comment wasn't about usability... It was about XP and lot's of people out
                    there saying that they are doing XP when in fact they found XP to be a
                    "cool" name to call their ad-hoc chaotic ways of working... [I'm of course
                    not talking about anybody in particular].

                    XP means taking every programming practice to an extreme. Let's say
                    testing... You have to test everything and you can't write code unless you
                    write a test case and try to break it. XP is also against any kind of
                    modeling at higher levels of abstraction (i.e. you can draw a couple of UML
                    diagrams if they represent implementation level models). This is highly
                    against any model-based approach to software development - including usage
                    centered design and others.

                    > Basically that points to keeping our eye on the goal -
                    > to create usable, good software. XP is a means to an
                    > end - not an end in and of itself.

                    If you mean that one can use some of XP practices within a different
                    development approach... That's Ok but that's not XP. The only thing new to
                    XP is taking every practice to an extreme... If you only take some you're
                    not doing XP... But you can develop good and usable software.

                    Nuno

                    >
                    > --- John Sisk <john.sisk@...> wrote:
                    >> Hi Nuno,
                    >>
                    >> You bring up an issue I hadn't considered fully , ie
                    >> testing the model.
                    >> Thank you for the link to www.extremmodeling.org
                    >> which opens up a new
                    >> learning path for me, and I'm sure some interesting
                    >> discussions here at work
                    >> :)
                    >>
                    >> Regards
                    >> John Sisk
                    >>
                    >> <snip>
                    >> Hi, the real issue regarding XP and any up-front
                    >> modeling approach is the
                    >> testability of the models. Can you build test cases
                    >> for analysis and design
                    >> level models? Whether they are for user interface
                    >> design purposes or not
                    >> doesn't matter.
                    >>
                    >> Even if you argue that prototypes and subsequent
                    >> usability evaluation of
                    >> prototypes are a way of testing user interface
                    >> models... I don't believe
                    >> they match the initial idea behind XP... For
                    >> instance, can you break those
                    >> tests?
                    >> </snip>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                    > http://shopping.yahoo.com/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Nuno Jardim Nunes
                    University of Madeira - Teaching Assistant
                    Mathematics Dep. - Computer Science Unit
                    phone: +351 291 705160 (direct) 705150 (secretary)
                    fax: +351 291 705199
                    URL: http://www.math.uma.pt/njn/
                    Address: Campus Universitário da Penteada
                    9000 - Funchal - Portugal
                  • stanley_sutton
                    I ve been programming for a living for around 26 years now. I learned to program 38 years ago in abstract machine language ( no computer to run it on). Most
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 18 2:14 PM
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                      I've been programming for a living for around 26 years now. I learned to program 38 years ago in abstract machine language ( no computer to run it on). Most recently (last 10 years or so), I've been doing object oriented programming in C++. The majority of what I've been doing has only had error messages for a user interface, with a few exceptions. What little GUI work I've done has been with Borland, MS VC++, and MS VB. It has all been by following the examples of what I've seen, and hasn't been desingned at all.

                      Since I value design very highly in building classes in C++, I was very glad to run across _Software_for_Use_ by Constantine & Lockwood (refered from the Bruce Eckel's site, by the way). Since I have some of Constantine's structured programming books in my library, I ordered it without looking, feeling confident it would be a good reference book, at the very least.

                      I'm currently up to chapter 10, and spending as much time reading as I can. I hope there are a few people still reading/using this group, as I believe I'll have a fair number of questions.
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