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Re: Transmitting energy without wires (test post)

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  • Kent L Aldershof
    Right, and right, Bert, It is certainly possible to transmit power as outlined, but as you point out the power density received diminishes -- not linearly, but
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 22, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Right, and right, Bert,

      It is certainly possible to transmit power as outlined, but as you point
      out the power density received diminishes -- not linearly, but as the
      inverse square of distance from the source. The usable power will be
      even less, depending on how much the loading would "detune" the system.

      A possibly more relevant concern is that there are a lot of other
      potential receivers, everywhere. Fifteen megavolts of low-frequency
      transmission is likely to induce voltages and currents in a good many
      other devices, which may include computers, radios, aircraft navigation
      systems, and nuclear missile controls. Your tower is going to cause a
      great deal of static. The impacts are not very predictable.

      The electomagnetic fields around 330 kv. transmission lines (and those of
      even lower voltage) are being blamed for everything from birth defects to
      cancer to stock market fluctuations. Imagine what the local nut crew
      would do when they began to believe your tower was causing their
      toothaches or their impotence.

      Brushing aside such problems, the real question is Why. What is the need
      to transmit such power, which would entail a pretty considerable capital
      investment, when power can be generated locally with reasonable
      convenience and much lower capital outlay?

      If you want power out in the boondocks somewhere, not within reach of
      your neighborhood electric company, put up a windmill or two. These
      days, wind power is competitive with all but the cheapest hydropower. Or
      build a Tesla turbine, and hook it to a generator. The turbine can be
      fired directly, either with propane or by Frank's exotic gasoline
      combustion schemes, if you happen to have those fuels available. Or by
      Tad's hydrogen generator. Or by steam, produced by burning dead trees or
      peat or trash or whatever else is lying around in abundance.

      You probably can not use sunshine to produce adequate electricity, not
      even near the Equator. The energy density of sunlight is just too low.
      You can certainly focus sunlight with a parabolic mirror, and by making a
      large enough apparatus you might be able to boil a substantial amount of
      water. But it would take a pretty big apparatus to serve even a modest
      sized home. And you would need either some pretty substantial batteries,
      or revert to your Tesla turbine, to take care of nighttime needs and
      rainy days.

      Dr. Tesla apparently had some very creative ideas about broadcast power,
      but it seems none of them were competitive with his notion of carrying
      alternative current electricity over wires.

      Kent





      On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:38 -0500 James Paul Moore <jmoore@...>
      writes:
      > From: James Paul Moore <jmoore@...>
      >
      > >Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:23:48 -0600
      > >Reply-To: USA-TESLA@...
      > >Sender: The International Tesla Society <USA-TESLA@...>
      > >From: Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>
      > >Organization: Stoneridge Engineering
      > >Subject: Re: Transmitting energy without wires
      > >To: Multiple recipients of list USA-TESLA <USA-TESLA@...>
      > >
      > >Wallace E. Brand wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Dear Ed, Bert, Fred, Malcolm and others on the list who may be
      > >> interested in wireless energy transmission. Suppose I construct
      > a
      > >> Tesla magnifying coil which will operate at 15,000,000 volts at
      > >> 30,000 cycles per second. I ground it in a fresh water/salt
      > water
      > >> aquifer connecting it to the sea, not far from Wardenclyffe
      > >> (Shoreham, Long Island). Wiith this apparatus I am able to
      > emulate
      > >> lightning strokes and to set up standing waves in the earth. At
      > a
      > >> great distance from the tower I plant two electrodes in the
      > ground,
      > >> either 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave apart with great masses of copper
      > wire
      > >> at the base of each to give a good connection and flood each with
      > >> salt water. At 30,000 cycles per second I think this would be
      > >> about 15.5 or 31 miles apart, respectively. Between the two
      > ground
      > >> connections I construct two insulated standard single phase
      > primary
      > >> distribution lines good for about 800 amps. For the quarter
      > wave
      > >> system these would be 7.75 miles long each. At the center point
      > >> would I have a good source of bulk power supply? Instead of
      > using
      > >> just one conductor, by using a cross arm and two conductors on
      > each
      > >> line, could I supply power all along the route of the primary
      > >> distribution line? Wallace Edward Brand
      > >>
      > >> XXX---------------------|-------------------------------- XXX
      > >> XXX ------------------(--------|--------------------------XXX
      > >> | < O >|
      > >> |
      > >> Bulk
      > >> Power
      > >> Supply
      > >
      > >Wallace and all,
      > >
      > >Interesting idea! Sorry for the delayed response, but I had tho
      > think
      > >about this a bit. I do come up with somewhat different line lengths
      > than
      > >your example. At 30,000 Hz, one wavelength would be about
      > 186,000/30,000
      > >miles, or about 6.2 miles. A 1/2 wavelength would be 3.1 miles, and
      > 1/4
      > >wave would be 1.55 miles. In your proposale, each transmission line
      > has
      > >one end grounded, but at opposite ends. Ideally, we would develop a
      > 1/4
      > >wave standing-wave Vmax at the ungrounded ends. Under 1/4 wave
      > >excitation, the standing wave voltage on each line should build up
      > >approximately sinusoidally (low-loss line asssumed) as we go from
      > the
      > >grounded end towards the ungrounded end. The unloaded voltage
      > BETWEEN
      > >lines will smoothly vary from Vmax at the far ends to about
      > 1.41*Vmax in
      > >the middle. There are significant technical challenges, however
      > (above
      > >and beyond the more obvious environmental ones)...
      > >
      > >At the magnifier end, 15 MV, especially RF, would be virtually
      > >impossible to insulate without resorting to a vacuum enclosure. The
      > >reasons are rather complex but they have to do with the way that
      > AIR
      > >breaks down at high voltages (particularly at relatively low RF
      > >frequencies) to form conductive streamers that are _considerably_
      > longer
      > >than for a comparable DC or low frequency AC source. This is a
      > >difficult, but not impossible, problem.
      > >
      > >Although considerable voltage may build in the unloaded 1/4 wave
      > lines,
      > >any "real" loading will spoil the Q of the system, significantly
      > >reducing Vmax. Depending upon the distance between the transmitter
      > and
      > >receiver, there will be only some fraction of the original energy
      > >available at the receiving end. (This is another way of saying that
      > if
      > >we used an array of identical receivers spread about the
      > transmitter,
      > >the SUM of all the power received by all can be no more than the
      > total
      > >power transmitted). This means that the "real" power available at
      > any
      > >given receiver will be relatively fixed to a maximum, and will be a
      > >function of separation distance (linear?) and transmited power.
      > >
      > >As we begin to "load" the receiver by pulling real power off the
      > wires,
      > >the output voltage must begin to collapse such that Vout*Iout is
      > >relatively constant. Now while the open circuit voltage on these
      > lines
      > >can be quite high (as it is at the top of a Tesla Coil), it will
      > rapidly
      > >collapse as we begin to load it down (reduce its Q). Unlike a low
      > >impedance [stiff] commercial power line, power delivered from these
      > 1/4
      > >wave transmission lines is very "soft" - the source impedance of
      > this
      > >system would be of the order of 500-850 ohms depending upon the
      > geometry
      > >of the transmission lines.
      > >
      > >However, if we always ran these lines "lightly loaded", we should
      > be
      > >able to draw some amount of usable power. This would ALSO require
      > us to
      > >have some type of converter and voltage regulator to shield
      > downstream
      > >customers from the voltage-versus-load variations of the lins
      > >themselves.
      > >
      > >Interesting scenario Wallace! Hope this "sparks" a bit of
      > discussion...
      > >
      > >-- Bert --
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
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    • Wallace Edward Brand
      Dear Mr. Aldershof, Bert and I were just speculating on whether our boy Nikola had any basis for his view of the feasibility of wireless energy transmission.
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 23, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Mr. Aldershof, Bert and I were just speculating on whether our boy Nikola
        had any basis for his view of the feasibility of wireless energy transmission.
        When he was considering it 100 years ago, they had no computers, radios, aircraft
        navigation systems and nuclear missile controls. I expect the biggest problem in
        Tesla's system would be corrosion of underground pipelines but techniques have
        been developed to deal with this. In any event, distributed generation though
        small scale fuel cells is the most likely alternative to large scale central
        station generation and I recently wrote in a post to Fred Bach. Litigation over
        toothaches and impotence is just a minor problem that lawyers can deal with -- it
        doesn't require any engineering or scientific skills. Wallace Edward Brand PS.
        There is an excellent article on wireless energy transmission in the Old Tlimers
        Bulletin of the Antique Wireless Association, February, 1999 I think. Part II is
        due in May I believe. WEB

        Kent L Aldershof wrote:

        > From: Kent L Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
        >
        > Right, and right, Bert,
        >
        > It is certainly possible to transmit power as outlined, but as you point
        > out the power density received diminishes -- not linearly, but as the
        > inverse square of distance from the source. The usable power will be
        > even less, depending on how much the loading would "detune" the system.
        >
        > A possibly more relevant concern is that there are a lot of other
        > potential receivers, everywhere. Fifteen megavolts of low-frequency
        > transmission is likely to induce voltages and currents in a good many
        > other devices, which may include computers, radios, aircraft navigation
        > systems, and nuclear missile controls. Your tower is going to cause a
        > great deal of static. The impacts are not very predictable.
        >
        > The electomagnetic fields around 330 kv. transmission lines (and those of
        > even lower voltage) are being blamed for everything from birth defects to
        > cancer to stock market fluctuations. Imagine what the local nut crew
        > would do when they began to believe your tower was causing their
        > toothaches or their impotence.
        >
        > Brushing aside such problems, the real question is Why. What is the need
        > to transmit such power, which would entail a pretty considerable capital
        > investment, when power can be generated locally with reasonable
        > convenience and much lower capital outlay?
        >
        > If you want power out in the boondocks somewhere, not within reach of
        > your neighborhood electric company, put up a windmill or two. These
        > days, wind power is competitive with all but the cheapest hydropower. Or
        > build a Tesla turbine, and hook it to a generator. The turbine can be
        > fired directly, either with propane or by Frank's exotic gasoline
        > combustion schemes, if you happen to have those fuels available. Or by
        > Tad's hydrogen generator. Or by steam, produced by burning dead trees or
        > peat or trash or whatever else is lying around in abundance.
        >
        > You probably can not use sunshine to produce adequate electricity, not
        > even near the Equator. The energy density of sunlight is just too low.
        > You can certainly focus sunlight with a parabolic mirror, and by making a
        > large enough apparatus you might be able to boil a substantial amount of
        > water. But it would take a pretty big apparatus to serve even a modest
        > sized home. And you would need either some pretty substantial batteries,
        > or revert to your Tesla turbine, to take care of nighttime needs and
        > rainy days.
        >
        > Dr. Tesla apparently had some very creative ideas about broadcast power,
        > but it seems none of them were competitive with his notion of carrying
        > alternative current electricity over wires.
        >
        > Kent
        >
        > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:38 -0500 James Paul Moore <jmoore@...>
        > writes:
        > > From: James Paul Moore <jmoore@...>
        > >
        > > >Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:23:48 -0600
        > > >Reply-To: USA-TESLA@...
        > > >Sender: The International Tesla Society <USA-TESLA@...>
        > > >From: Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>
        > > >Organization: Stoneridge Engineering
        > > >Subject: Re: Transmitting energy without wires
        > > >To: Multiple recipients of list USA-TESLA <USA-TESLA@...>
        > > >
        > > >Wallace E. Brand wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> Dear Ed, Bert, Fred, Malcolm and others on the list who may be
        > > >> interested in wireless energy transmission. Suppose I construct
        > > a
        > > >> Tesla magnifying coil which will operate at 15,000,000 volts at
        > > >> 30,000 cycles per second. I ground it in a fresh water/salt
        > > water
        > > >> aquifer connecting it to the sea, not far from Wardenclyffe
        > > >> (Shoreham, Long Island). Wiith this apparatus I am able to
        > > emulate
        > > >> lightning strokes and to set up standing waves in the earth. At
        > > a
        > > >> great distance from the tower I plant two electrodes in the
        > > ground,
        > > >> either 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave apart with great masses of copper
        > > wire
        > > >> at the base of each to give a good connection and flood each with
        > > >> salt water. At 30,000 cycles per second I think this would be
        > > >> about 15.5 or 31 miles apart, respectively. Between the two
        > > ground
        > > >> connections I construct two insulated standard single phase
        > > primary
        > > >> distribution lines good for about 800 amps. For the quarter
        > > wave
        > > >> system these would be 7.75 miles long each. At the center point
        > > >> would I have a good source of bulk power supply? Instead of
        > > using
        > > >> just one conductor, by using a cross arm and two conductors on
        > > each
        > > >> line, could I supply power all along the route of the primary
        > > >> distribution line? Wallace Edward Brand
        > > >>
        > > >> XXX---------------------|-------------------------------- XXX
        > > >> XXX ------------------(--------|--------------------------XXX
        > > >> | < O >|
        > > >> |
        > > >> Bulk
        > > >> Power
        > > >> Supply
        > > >
        > > >Wallace and all,
        > > >
        > > >Interesting idea! Sorry for the delayed response, but I had tho
        > > think
        > > >about this a bit. I do come up with somewhat different line lengths
        > > than
        > > >your example. At 30,000 Hz, one wavelength would be about
        > > 186,000/30,000
        > > >miles, or about 6.2 miles. A 1/2 wavelength would be 3.1 miles, and
        > > 1/4
        > > >wave would be 1.55 miles. In your proposale, each transmission line
        > > has
        > > >one end grounded, but at opposite ends. Ideally, we would develop a
        > > 1/4
        > > >wave standing-wave Vmax at the ungrounded ends. Under 1/4 wave
        > > >excitation, the standing wave voltage on each line should build up
        > > >approximately sinusoidally (low-loss line asssumed) as we go from
        > > the
        > > >grounded end towards the ungrounded end. The unloaded voltage
        > > BETWEEN
        > > >lines will smoothly vary from Vmax at the far ends to about
        > > 1.41*Vmax in
        > > >the middle. There are significant technical challenges, however
        > > (above
        > > >and beyond the more obvious environmental ones)...
        > > >
        > > >At the magnifier end, 15 MV, especially RF, would be virtually
        > > >impossible to insulate without resorting to a vacuum enclosure. The
        > > >reasons are rather complex but they have to do with the way that
        > > AIR
        > > >breaks down at high voltages (particularly at relatively low RF
        > > >frequencies) to form conductive streamers that are _considerably_
        > > longer
        > > >than for a comparable DC or low frequency AC source. This is a
        > > >difficult, but not impossible, problem.
        > > >
        > > >Although considerable voltage may build in the unloaded 1/4 wave
        > > lines,
        > > >any "real" loading will spoil the Q of the system, significantly
        > > >reducing Vmax. Depending upon the distance between the transmitter
        > > and
        > > >receiver, there will be only some fraction of the original energy
        > > >available at the receiving end. (This is another way of saying that
        > > if
        > > >we used an array of identical receivers spread about the
        > > transmitter,
        > > >the SUM of all the power received by all can be no more than the
        > > total
        > > >power transmitted). This means that the "real" power available at
        > > any
        > > >given receiver will be relatively fixed to a maximum, and will be a
        > > >function of separation distance (linear?) and transmited power.
        > > >
        > > >As we begin to "load" the receiver by pulling real power off the
        > > wires,
        > > >the output voltage must begin to collapse such that Vout*Iout is
        > > >relatively constant. Now while the open circuit voltage on these
        > > lines
        > > >can be quite high (as it is at the top of a Tesla Coil), it will
        > > rapidly
        > > >collapse as we begin to load it down (reduce its Q). Unlike a low
        > > >impedance [stiff] commercial power line, power delivered from these
        > > 1/4
        > > >wave transmission lines is very "soft" - the source impedance of
        > > this
        > > >system would be of the order of 500-850 ohms depending upon the
        > > geometry
        > > >of the transmission lines.
        > > >
        > > >However, if we always ran these lines "lightly loaded", we should
        > > be
        > > >able to draw some amount of usable power. This would ALSO require
        > > us to
        > > >have some type of converter and voltage regulator to shield
        > > downstream
        > > >customers from the voltage-versus-load variations of the lins
        > > >themselves.
        > > >
        > > >Interesting scenario Wallace! Hope this "sparks" a bit of
        > > discussion...
        > > >
        > > >-- Bert --
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Looking for the perfect gift for a friend?
        > > http://www.ONElist.com
        > > Tell them about ONElist's 115,000 free e-mail communities!
        > >
        >
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        > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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