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Neon Sign Transformers + Ozone

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  • Jet Black
    I have built myself a HV Ozone generator , a very simple design , 4 inch diameter glass coffee jar with adhesive foil (approx 3.5 to 4inch wide) stuck onto
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
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      I have built myself a HV Ozone generator , a very simple design , 4 inch
      diameter glass coffee jar with adhesive foil (approx 3.5 to 4inch wide)
      stuck onto the interior and exterior of the jar , naturally there is a
      stripped back HV wire under each side of the adhesive foil.Like I said very
      primative & insulated as well as these sort of devices can be.These are
      early days , if it works properly a more efficient "jar" design will be built.
      I can stick any of my neon sign trannys to it and it will produce a nice
      blue corona , make crackling noises & ozone.
      My dillema is that I am not loading the NST's high enough , the figure I
      have read is 80% of it's full rated load for maximum efficiency & life
      expectancy.

      When I attach a 9500V 170Ma NST plenty of ozone is made but it is only
      drawing 1.38amps out of a possible 5.7amps maximum , I _really_ don't want
      to cook these NST's because they are very hard to come by nowadays (for
      free) On the other end of the scale when I attach a 10000V 30ma NST to it I
      don't even get an indication of how much current it's drawing , but it's
      nowhere near the
      Somethings is obviously missing from the primary or secondary circut , can
      anyone give me a hint on what to add and where so i can load the
      NST's somewhere near their proper load current ?

      On the Ozone thing there are many conflicting reports about it ,good bad &
      ugly. I want to be able to use the ozone generator mostly to clean out
      bugs dust mould and everything else that is unwanted in my house when I'm
      not home , rather than make something that will generate the 1 or 2 parts
      per million that seems safe for continual use.


      tia

      JB
    • Fred McGalliard
      ... I think you might look into a more efficient Ozone generator. This is mostly an AC capacitor that generates a bit of ozone on the side. I think there are
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
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        Jet Black wrote:
        >
        > I have built myself a HV Ozone generator , a very simple design , 4 inch
        > diameter glass coffee jar with adhesive foil (approx 3.5 to 4inch wide)
        > stuck onto the interior and exterior of the jar

        I think you might look into a more efficient Ozone generator. This is
        mostly an AC capacitor that generates a bit of ozone on the side. I
        think there are ways to make more ozone per watt, but I don't have the
        data. I run into it, I'll try to remember your need. BTW. Ozone at
        higher concentrations is a strong bleach and will damage plastic and
        rubber parts, bleach color out of wall paint and cloth, and can give
        your lungs a pretty nasty burn if you don't air the house out good
        before entering.
      • Jim Farrer
        === JSF 12/1 (Thinking out loud here) (1) You might try hooking up a looong neon tube in parallel with the jar. This will load (and protect) the NST, but
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
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          ===>>JSF 12/1 (Thinking out loud here)
          (1) You might try hooking up a looong neon tube in parallel
          with the jar. This will load (and protect) the NST, but with "some"
          degeneration of the ozone quantity. "Some"??? An NE2 bulb ionizes at
          less than 100v, I believe. a 15,000v NST can drive some 60 feet of
          neon tubing. More feet demands a higher voltage.

          Once the neon tube strikes, it becomes nearly a dead short, and the NST
          voltage falls to nearly zero for the remainder of that half cycle.
          If the tubing length was just at the point where it would fire steadily,
          it would fire at close to the AC peak. The ozone generator would get
          1/2 the normal voltage waveshape applied to it. BUT: What part of the
          unloaded, pure sine wave causes the ozone? I bet only the top few
          percent causes ozone.

          (2) NST deterioration comes from too high a voltage, which breaks
          through the NST secondary insulation. Cause is usually "flickering"
          in a neon sign, where resonance builds the waveshape ever higher over
          many cycles. Much the same in a Tesla coil, if the gap is set too
          wide. So, might use a gap across the NST secondary set to fire with no
          load. Hopefully, connecting the ozone generator might make enough of
          a load so that the protection gap never fires. Worth a try, IMHO.

          (3) Connect up a high wattage high voltage high ohms resistor across
          the secondary. Now I've gotta think in engineering terms. What value?
          Say the NST is 10,000v. That's RMS. Resistor has to be insulated
          for peak, 1.414214 times higher. So, 14,142.14 volts is generated.
          That is the voltage the resistor has to be rated for without frying.
          R = E/I. If I = 30 milliamps, and E = 10,000 v, then R must be 333K.
          [This doesn't sound right. I thought it would be in the megohms.]
          If the above is correct, you don't need to load the NST to its *limit*
          to protect it. You must just keep it from resonating and building up
          a higher, ruinous voltage. The resistor, even at 3.33 megs should do
          this.

          We have an Alpine Air Freshener. $500.00, but my wife WANTED IT after
          she experienced the air in a friend's house. Bacon odors are killed
          in about 5 or 10 minutes. I like it.

          ==============> Should I be worried about injury to us?

          It has a glass plate, about 3.5 X 3.5. Chicken wire 1/4" mesh on
          both sides, held on with (I guess) epoxy. Fed with, I believe 7KV
          at 30KHz, sine wave. This generates the ozone. We have to keep it
          very low most of the time. It also has an ion generator. It is a
          single sharp point electrode, fed with 10 kv at 20 KHz.

          Jim Farrer


          Jet Black wrote:
          >
          > I have built myself a HV Ozone generator , a very simple design , 4
          > inch
          > diameter glass coffee jar with adhesive foil (approx 3.5 to 4inch
          > wide)
          > stuck onto the interior and exterior of the jar , naturally there is a
          >
          > stripped back HV wire under each side of the adhesive foil.Like I said
          > very
          > primative & insulated as well as these sort of devices can be.These
          > are
          > early days , if it works properly a more efficient "jar" design will
          > be built.
          > I can stick any of my neon sign trannys to it and it will produce a
          > nice
          > blue corona , make crackling noises & ozone.
          > My dillema is that I am not loading the NST's high enough , the figure
          > I
          > have read is 80% of it's full rated load for maximum efficiency &
          > life
          > expectancy.
          >
          > When I attach a 9500V 170Ma NST plenty of ozone is made but it is
          > only
          > drawing 1.38amps out of a possible 5.7amps maximum , I _really_ don't
          > want
          > to cook these NST's because they are very hard to come by nowadays
          > (for
          > free) On the other end of the scale when I attach a 10000V 30ma NST to
          > it I
          > don't even get an indication of how much current it's drawing , but
          > it's
          > nowhere near the
          > Somethings is obviously missing from the primary or secondary circut ,
          > can
          > anyone give me a hint on what to add and where so i can load the
          > NST's somewhere near their proper load current ?
          >
          > On the Ozone thing there are many conflicting reports about it ,good
          > bad &
          > ugly. I want to be able to use the ozone generator mostly to clean
          > out
          > bugs dust mould and everything else that is unwanted in my house when
          > I'm
          > not home , rather than make something that will generate the 1 or 2
          > parts
          > per million that seems safe for continual use.
          >
          > tia
          >
          > JB
          >
          > eGroups Sponsor
          > [Image] [Image]
          >
          > go
        • Jim Farrer
          === JSF 12/1 Fred, how much is a high concentration? The only detector I have is my nose. If the ozone is just barely noticeable when first entering the
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2000
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            ===>>JSF 12/1 Fred, how much is a high concentration? The only
            detector I have is my nose. If the ozone is just barely noticeable
            when first entering the room, is this high enough to be hurtful?
            Is the nose a good/useful/safe/reliable detector?

            Fred McGalliard wrote:
            >
            > Jet Black wrote:
            > >
            > > I have built myself a HV Ozone generator , a very simple design , 4
            > inch
            > > diameter glass coffee jar with adhesive foil (approx 3.5 to 4inch
            > wide)
            > > stuck onto the interior and exterior of the jar
            >
            > I think you might look into a more efficient Ozone generator. This is
            > mostly an AC capacitor that generates a bit of ozone on the side. I
            > think there are ways to make more ozone per watt, but I don't have the
            > data. I run into it, I'll try to remember your need. BTW. Ozone at
            > higher concentrations is a strong bleach and will damage plastic and
            > rubber parts, bleach color out of wall paint and cloth, and can give
            > your lungs a pretty nasty burn if you don't air the house out good
            > before entering.
            >
            > eGroups Sponsor
            > [Travel Over to Lowestfare.com!]
            > Travel Over to Lowestfare.com!
          • James Paul Moore
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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            • James Paul Moore
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 2, 2000
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              • Fred McGalliard
                ... How about just loading it with a more demanding ozone generator? Actually I have a vague memory of a UV light being used to generate ozone by
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                  Jim Farrer wrote:
                  >
                  > ===>>JSF 12/1 (Thinking out loud here)
                  > (1) You might try hooking up a looong neon tube in parallel
                  > with the jar. This will load (and protect) the NST

                  How about just loading it with a more demanding ozone generator?
                  Actually I have a vague memory of a UV light being used to generate
                  ozone by photoionization. If you can make it efficiently, then you just
                  need to load match and drive all your spare energy into ozone.
                • Fred McGalliard
                  ... I don t think so, but I am not really sure. I know that the ozone layer on top of the LA smog bank, (photo chemically produced ozone), burns the heck out
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                    Jim Farrer wrote:
                    >
                    > ===>>JSF 12/1 Fred, how much is a high concentration? The only
                    > detector I have is my nose. If the ozone is just barely noticeable
                    > when first entering the room, is this high enough to be hurtful?
                    > Is the nose a good/useful/safe/reliable detector?

                    I don't think so, but I am not really sure. I know that the ozone layer
                    on top of the LA smog bank, (photo chemically produced ozone), burns the
                    heck out of my lungs and I can't really smell it. But that is after a
                    long gradual acclimatization, with lots of pine trees producing their
                    own odors. I would be concerned that an object (like a couch) could
                    absorb a lot, and then keep releasing it into your air space for a very
                    long time. Trust me, if you have not experienced the asthmatic's short
                    wheezy breaths during a smog attack, you want to avoid. (Actually, I am
                    now having a mild attack just from the changing seasons up here in
                    Seattle.)
                  • Jim Farrer
                    That d work, too, Fred. For well over 50 years, GE has been marketing their Germicidal Lamp fluorescent lamp. Same shape as a fluorescent, same filament
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                      That'd work, too, Fred. For well over 50 years, GE has been marketing their
                      Germicidal Lamp "fluorescent" lamp. Same shape as a fluorescent, same filament
                      electrodes, etc., but with no fluorescent powder on the inner wall. There is no
                      fluorescence. The tube wall is made of a quartz-like material, which passes the
                      mercury vapor 2537 Angstrom line, which is in the far ultraviolet. Very VERY
                      invisible. This causes the photoionization you spake of. But I believe the
                      amount of ozone produced is very low compared to most ozone generators of the
                      high voltage discharge type.

                      Besides, that wouldn't be hardly *any* fun for J.B.
                      Jim Farrer

                      Fred McGalliard wrote:
                      >
                      > Jim Farrer wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ===>>JSF 12/1 (Thinking out loud here)
                      > > (1) You might try hooking up a looong neon tube in parallel
                      > > with the jar. This will load (and protect) the NST
                      >
                      > How about just loading it with a more demanding ozone generator?
                      > Actually I have a vague memory of a UV light being used to generate
                      > ozone by photoionization. If you can make it efficiently, then you just
                      > need to load match and drive all your spare energy into ozone.
                      >
                      > eGroups Sponsor
                      > [Click Here!]
                    • Jim Farrer
                      Thanks for the info, Fred. My unit is commercially produced especially for a direct selling group based on AMWAY. It s been marketed for some years; I know
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 4, 2000
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                        Thanks for the info, Fred. My unit is commercially produced especially for a
                        direct selling group based on AMWAY. It's been marketed for some years; I know
                        my friend (whose Doctor son is one of their salesmen) has had it for at least 5
                        years. Never spoken of any discomfort. He's about my age (35 for the 37th
                        time), has had 3 heart bypass operation, is beginning to outlive his doctors.

                        My wife frequently finds the odor too strong and turns down the machine (after
                        the bacon smell is gone), but none of the 4 of us (me, yf, 2 friends) have had
                        any ill effects. Is MAGICAL at keeping dust down in our houses.
                        Jim

                        Fred McGalliard wrote:
                        >
                        > Jim Farrer wrote:
                        > >
                        > > ===>>JSF 12/1 Fred, how much is a high concentration? The only
                        > > detector I have is my nose. If the ozone is just barely noticeable
                        > > when first entering the room, is this high enough to be hurtful?
                        > > Is the nose a good/useful/safe/reliable detector?
                        >
                        > I don't think so, but I am not really sure. I know that the ozone layer
                        > on top of the LA smog bank, (photo chemically produced ozone), burns the
                        > heck out of my lungs and I can't really smell it. But that is after a
                        > long gradual acclimatization, with lots of pine trees producing their
                        > own odors. I would be concerned that an object (like a couch) could
                        > absorb a lot, and then keep releasing it into your air space for a very
                        > long time. Trust me, if you have not experienced the asthmatic's short
                        > wheezy breaths during a smog attack, you want to avoid. (Actually, I am
                        > now having a mild attack just from the changing seasons up here in
                        > Seattle.)
                        >
                        > eGroups Sponsor
                        > [Click Here!]
                      • Jet Black
                        Thanks all for the input , The Ozone producing jar design is very ineficient , so building more in that style is pointless , a design of 2 sheets of fine
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 5, 2000
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                          Thanks all for the input ,
                          The Ozone producing "jar" design is very ineficient , so building more in
                          that style is pointless , a design of 2 sheets of fine mesh Aluminium
                          gause expoxied either side of a sheet of glass has turned up that looks
                          more promising (use a Dremel or similar to rough up the glass areas to be
                          glued for better adhesion)

                          I think I have the loading problem sorted , by putting an 80 to 120 watt
                          light bulb in parallel across the secondaries , the NST's load can be set
                          to the 80% load I want.I had previously "modified" some ceramic , edison
                          screw and bayonet connection lamp holders so that they would work as lights
                          on HV rather than act like air gaps.The insulation off "fireproof"
                          electrical cables comes in handy for this sort of thing + the almighty
                          Dremel tool.

                          From what I've read safety wise , if you walk into a room and can easily
                          smell the Ozone, walk out immediately , grab a _fresh_ lungful of air, then
                          go in & turn the generator off , then get out , Ozone has an active life
                          expectancy of 30 minutes , then it degrades into something that won't "rip
                          your lungs out"

                          The house I own was probably built in the 1930's , looks great with it's
                          high ceilings & federation style interior , but , is full of dust
                          , microbes etc which gives my sinus absolute hell. So until I can rip out
                          the carpet & sand back the magnificent wooden floorboards , I need
                          something on a commercial scale to keep the air clean.

                          Jim is partially right about the UV lights being no fun for me as they
                          don't make lots of arcs & sparks , but after seeing the amount of damage
                          my little 8 watt UV germicidal fluro's can make in my lab , I bluntly
                          refuse to expose my precious paintings , prints , furniture , photo's etc
                          to it for an extended period of time.


                          At 1543 5/12/2000, you wrote:
                          >That'd work, too, Fred. For well over 50 years, GE has been marketing their
                          >Germicidal Lamp "fluorescent" lamp. Same shape as a fluorescent, same
                          >filament
                          >electrodes, etc., but with no fluorescent powder on the inner wall. There
                          >is no
                          >fluorescence. The tube wall is made of a quartz-like material, which
                          >passes the
                          >mercury vapor 2537 Angstrom line, which is in the far ultraviolet. Very VERY
                          >invisible. This causes the photoionization you spake of. But I believe the
                          >amount of ozone produced is very low compared to most ozone generators of the
                          >high voltage discharge type.
                          >
                          >Besides, that wouldn't be hardly *any* fun for J.B.
                          >Jim Farrer
                          >
                          >Fred McGalliard wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Jim Farrer wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > ===>>JSF 12/1 (Thinking out loud here)
                          > > > (1) You might try hooking up a looong neon tube in parallel
                          > > > with the jar. This will load (and protect) the NST
                          > >
                          > > How about just loading it with a more demanding ozone generator?
                          > > Actually I have a vague memory of a UV light being used to generate
                          > > ozone by photoionization. If you can make it efficiently, then you just
                          > > need to load match and drive all your spare energy into ozone.
                          > >
                          > > eGroups Sponsor
                          > > [Click Here!]
                          >
                        • David Knaack
                          From: Jet Black ... Just curious, but I often seen light blue (approximately sky-blue) fluorescent lights in fast food places around
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
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                            From: "Jet Black" <tesla@...>
                            > Jim is partially right about the UV lights being no fun for me as they
                            > don't make lots of arcs & sparks , but after seeing the amount of damage
                            > my little 8 watt UV germicidal fluro's can make in my lab , I bluntly
                            > refuse to expose my precious paintings , prints , furniture , photo's etc
                            > to it for an extended period of time.

                            Just curious, but I often seen light blue (approximately sky-blue)
                            fluorescent lights in fast food places around here. The are mounted
                            in white metal holders with a large sized screen over the tube,
                            presumably to protect it from physical abuse. IIRC they are labeled
                            with a tag that says 'sani-light' or something to that effect.

                            Is this something similar to what you are describing?

                            DK
                          • James P Moore
                            ... JB... I would think that ozone would have a similar bleaching effect as UV on any pigmented substance, such as you mention above? Might not act as quickly,
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
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                              Jim is partially right about the UV lights being no fun for me as they
                              don't make lots of arcs & sparks  , but after seeing the amount of damage
                              my little 8 watt UV germicidal fluro's can make in my lab , I bluntly
                              refuse to expose my precious paintings , prints , furniture , photo's etc
                              to it for an extended period of time.

                              JB... I would think that ozone would have a similar bleaching effect as UV on any pigmented substance,
                              such as you mention above? Might not act as quickly, but the long term effect might be similar.

                            • Jet Black
                              ... Good point James , I ve stuck a short piece of orange coloured underground electrical conduit into the Ozone jar.This poly/plastic pipe has absolutely no
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 6, 2000
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                                At 0650 7/12/2000, you wrote:


                                >>Jim is partially right about the UV lights being no fun for me as they
                                >>don't make lots of arcs & sparks , but after seeing the amount of damage
                                >>my little 8 watt UV germicidal fluro's can make in my lab , I bluntly
                                >>refuse to expose my precious paintings , prints , furniture , photo's etc
                                >>to it for an extended period of time.
                                >
                                >JB... I would think that ozone would have a similar bleaching effect as UV
                                >on any pigmented substance,
                                >such as you mention above? Might not act as quickly, but the long term
                                >effect might be similar.

                                Good point James , I've stuck a short piece of orange coloured underground
                                electrical conduit into the Ozone jar.This poly/plastic pipe has
                                absolutely no UV protection and was one of the test subjects left under
                                my 8 watt UV lights , so I'll have a reference of sorts to see what sort
                                of damage it does.

                                As far as the "sani-lights" that David mentioned , the colour you describe
                                is in the UV region ,but I doubt anyone would put a true UV tube in a
                                public area. As Jim mentioned the UV tubes are clear with no powder
                                coating inside of them. If you can _clearly_ see the filaments at either
                                end of the tube & see a distinct orange glow at one end of each filament ,
                                then you are looking at a _very_ dangerous light , most "public"
                                germiciadal lights have an interior powder coating that gives off a
                                reasonably safe (government standard) amount of UV radiation.

                                If you can ever get ahold of a light manufacturers "technical" catalog (try
                                an electrical wholesalers or call direct), & check out the "special
                                application lights" or similar section , that's how you get all the
                                interesting lights that they don't sell over the counter & usually don't
                                stock.The catalog will usually have excellent technical info & graphs
                                showing the spectral emission & colour rendering of their lights.
                                Narrow spectrum lights come in very handy to view an experiment that has
                                run to a dead end , I have often picked up things I would have
                                totally missed by using UV , "black lights" or various red , blue
                                & green lights , rather than "normal" (if there is such a thing) white light.
                                If I'm in the mood for some fun , my front yard looks very spooky on
                                Haloween night.

                                JB
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