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Re: Nostalgia Electrostatica

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  • graham gunderson
    Hi JB Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I m always playing music through one, so of course they break and I m used to fixing them. If you have any
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 7, 1999
      Hi JB
      Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I'm always playing music
      through one, so of course they break and I'm used to fixing them. If you
      have any questions about tube replacement or whatever, I might be able to
      get you the answer.

      Good luck--

      Graham

      ps too bad about the vinyl
    • Jet Black
      ... Thanks , the Grundig is actually my birthright .It has been in storage for over a decade , I hauled it out so I can make some sort of analog to digital
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 7, 1999
        At 01:41 PM 8/10/99 , you wrote:
        >From: "graham gunderson" <infinitenergy@...>
        >
        >
        >
        >Hi JB
        >Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I'm always playing music
        >through one, so of course they break and I'm used to fixing them. If you
        >have any questions about tube replacement or whatever, I might be able to
        >get you the answer.
        >
        >Good luck--
        >
        >Graham

        Thanks , the Grundig is actually my birthright .It has been in storage for
        over a decade , I hauled it out so I can make some sort of analog to
        digital converter & vica versa.
        I would play with it for hours as a young man when ever I was at my
        Grandfathers house , strangely enough it was one of the few devices that
        actually commanded respect and I gave it the respect it deserved , looks
        like it's paying off.


        >ps too bad about the vinyl

        It should play records OK like i said i think a preamp valve has been
        damaged & what a selection ! including the original soundtrack to "The
        Sound of Music" !!!!!! :))
        I also have access to an Onkyo "quadraphonic" stereo setup with special
        quad records.

        If anyone can give me a brief runover of the do's and DONT"S involved in
        the removal and checking of valves , I'd greatly appreciate it , I imagine
        the oil on my skin can't be too good for it & I always use "canned air" to
        blow out dust etc.
        Should I be wearing some "autopsy gloves" when handling valves ?
        Should I only handle the valves when they are at room temperature ?

        fairly simple questions in my mind but any local knowledge on or offlist
        would be appreciated as the local olde book store has _nothing_ on Valves.
        Yesterdays pickup was a 1931 edition of AUDELS NEW ELECTRIC LIBRARY (red
        leather bound) light but very interesting reading :)


        JB
      • graham gunderson
        Re: electrostatic transducers Crazy to think the stuff s that old. If you charge these things up and listen to the middle plate with a preamp they make a
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
          Re: electrostatic transducers

          Crazy to think the stuff's that old.
          If you charge these things up and "listen" to the middle plate with a preamp
          they make a great microphone...
          And yeah, the bass usually sucks on account of the fact that there's not
          much linear "excursion", in the woofer sense.

          Perhaps a better design using a modern flexible metallized polymer membrane
          and really high voltages could better this problem.

          Have heard that if you audio-modulate the corona output of a Tesla coil you
          can come up with some pretty powerful (but noisy) bass.

          -Graham
        • James Paul Moore
          ... from its original owner. The other appears to have been ... Wow... Wallace, I am jealous. Would love to have those coffins! JMP
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
            At 11:00 PM 10/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
            >From: Wallace Edward Brand <webrand@...>
            >
            >Dear James, I have two of those Jensen Imperial speakers from
            >the 50s with 15 inch woofers, and 8 inch midranges and electrostatic
            >tweeters. The sound is impressive. One unit was factory made, >obtained
            from its original owner. The other appears to have been
            >made from a kit, obtained at an auction. They were originally made
            >for monaural use. They are the size of large coffins which is
            >not a good use of space but the sound is worth it.
            >Wallace Edward Brand
            >
            >James Paul Moore wrote:
            >
            >> From: James Paul Moore <jmoore@...>

            Wow... Wallace, I am jealous. Would love to have those coffins!

            JMP
          • Jim Farrer
            Our U.S. Air Force SAGE system had 26 sites around the periphery of the country, with about 58,000 vacuum tubes (valves) at each site. One of my
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
              Our U.S. Air Force SAGE system had 26 sites around the periphery of the
              country, with about 58,000 vacuum tubes (valves) at each site. One of my
              responsibilities was to do a study on the advisability/timing etc. of mass
              tube replacement (circa 1960). We used to check tubes for microphonics
              (specifically, the 2399 tube, a twin triode with cathode to grid and grid to
              plate spacing of but .002 inches) by tapping them with a pencil. These were
              in the magnetic drum units; if a tube was "bad" it would induce a drum parity
              error. [We also had a "lights out" check, wherein we turned out the room
              lights and visually scanned for burned out filaments.]

              The engineers did some deep down checking, and found out that a good tap with
              a pencil gave the tube a 5 or 6 G impact, and that many perfectly good tubes
              would fail the test. They ruled the lights out check as OK.

              Have never heard of any admonition to not touch the tubes with hands, since
              the glass is impervious, and the operating temperature low. However, I made a
              trip to see the glassblower at National Bureau of Standards, and there are
              some quartz tubes, and uses thereof, which are absolutely ruined if hand oils
              get on them. Can't recall specifically what this situation was. Also, the
              high-temperature high-wattage quartz lamps used in sodium, mercury vapor and
              halogen filament lamps also must not be touched, as the human skin oils
              attack the quartz at these high temperatures.

              Jim Farrer

              Jet Black wrote:

              > From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
              >
              > At 01:41 PM 8/10/99 , you wrote:
              > >From: "graham gunderson" <infinitenergy@...>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Hi JB
              > >Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I'm always playing music
              > >through one, so of course they break and I'm used to fixing them. If you
              > >have any questions about tube replacement or whatever, I might be able to
              > >get you the answer.
              > >
              > >Good luck--
              > >
              > >Graham
              >
              > Thanks , the Grundig is actually my birthright .It has been in storage for
              > over a decade , I hauled it out so I can make some sort of analog to
              > digital converter & vica versa.
              > I would play with it for hours as a young man when ever I was at my
              > Grandfathers house , strangely enough it was one of the few devices that
              > actually commanded respect and I gave it the respect it deserved , looks
              > like it's paying off.
              >
              > >ps too bad about the vinyl
              >
              > It should play records OK like i said i think a preamp valve has been
              > damaged & what a selection ! including the original soundtrack to "The
              > Sound of Music" !!!!!! :))
              > I also have access to an Onkyo "quadraphonic" stereo setup with special
              > quad records.
              >
              > If anyone can give me a brief runover of the do's and DONT"S involved in
              > the removal and checking of valves , I'd greatly appreciate it , I imagine
              > the oil on my skin can't be too good for it & I always use "canned air" to
              > blow out dust etc.
              > Should I be wearing some "autopsy gloves" when handling valves ?
              > Should I only handle the valves when they are at room temperature ?
              >
              > fairly simple questions in my mind but any local knowledge on or offlist
              > would be appreciated as the local olde book store has _nothing_ on Valves.
              > Yesterdays pickup was a 1931 edition of AUDELS NEW ELECTRIC LIBRARY (red
              > leather bound) light but very interesting reading :)
              >
              > JB
              >
              >
            • Wallace Edward Brand
              In the course of my work on the litigation involving the cost of the use of AT&T s lines for transmitting digital data in the early 1960s, I visited a SAGE
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
                In the course of my work on the litigation involving the cost of the use of
                AT&T's lines for transmitting digital data in the early 1960s, I visited a SAGE
                site near Hopewell, VA. The operator there said that the enormous tube type
                computer used to making chirping noises in a recognizeable merry little tune when
                it was operating properly. When the tune changed, there was something wrong.
                Those computers were immense perhaps five or six feet high and deep, and perhaps
                thirty or so feet long, to my aging recollection. I'm told there is currently
                more computing power in a PC than in one of those. All hail to the integrated
                circuit and Silicon Valley. Wallace Edward Brand

                Jim Farrer wrote:

                > From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                >
                > Our U.S. Air Force SAGE system had 26 sites around the periphery of the
                > country, with about 58,000 vacuum tubes (valves) at each site. One of my
                > responsibilities was to do a study on the advisability/timing etc. of mass
                > tube replacement (circa 1960). We used to check tubes for microphonics
                > (specifically, the 2399 tube, a twin triode with cathode to grid and grid to
                > plate spacing of but .002 inches) by tapping them with a pencil. These were
                > in the magnetic drum units; if a tube was "bad" it would induce a drum parity
                > error. [We also had a "lights out" check, wherein we turned out the room
                > lights and visually scanned for burned out filaments.]
                >
                > The engineers did some deep down checking, and found out that a good tap with
                > a pencil gave the tube a 5 or 6 G impact, and that many perfectly good tubes
                > would fail the test. They ruled the lights out check as OK.
                >
                > Have never heard of any admonition to not touch the tubes with hands, since
                > the glass is impervious, and the operating temperature low. However, I made a
                > trip to see the glassblower at National Bureau of Standards, and there are
                > some quartz tubes, and uses thereof, which are absolutely ruined if hand oils
                > get on them. Can't recall specifically what this situation was. Also, the
                > high-temperature high-wattage quartz lamps used in sodium, mercury vapor and
                > halogen filament lamps also must not be touched, as the human skin oils
                > attack the quartz at these high temperatures.
                >
                > Jim Farrer
                >
                > Jet Black wrote:
                >
                > > From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
                > >
                > > At 01:41 PM 8/10/99 , you wrote:
                > > >From: "graham gunderson" <infinitenergy@...>
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >Hi JB
                > > >Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I'm always playing music
                > > >through one, so of course they break and I'm used to fixing them. If you
                > > >have any questions about tube replacement or whatever, I might be able to
                > > >get you the answer.
                > > >
                > > >Good luck--
                > > >
                > > >Graham
                > >
                > > Thanks , the Grundig is actually my birthright .It has been in storage for
                > > over a decade , I hauled it out so I can make some sort of analog to
                > > digital converter & vica versa.
                > > I would play with it for hours as a young man when ever I was at my
                > > Grandfathers house , strangely enough it was one of the few devices that
                > > actually commanded respect and I gave it the respect it deserved , looks
                > > like it's paying off.
                > >
                > > >ps too bad about the vinyl
                > >
                > > It should play records OK like i said i think a preamp valve has been
                > > damaged & what a selection ! including the original soundtrack to "The
                > > Sound of Music" !!!!!! :))
                > > I also have access to an Onkyo "quadraphonic" stereo setup with special
                > > quad records.
                > >
                > > If anyone can give me a brief runover of the do's and DONT"S involved in
                > > the removal and checking of valves , I'd greatly appreciate it , I imagine
                > > the oil on my skin can't be too good for it & I always use "canned air" to
                > > blow out dust etc.
                > > Should I be wearing some "autopsy gloves" when handling valves ?
                > > Should I only handle the valves when they are at room temperature ?
                > >
                > > fairly simple questions in my mind but any local knowledge on or offlist
                > > would be appreciated as the local olde book store has _nothing_ on Valves.
                > > Yesterdays pickup was a 1931 edition of AUDELS NEW ELECTRIC LIBRARY (red
                > > leather bound) light but very interesting reading :)
                > >
                > > JB
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
              • Jet Black
                ... I tried the lights out test most seem to have a glow around them , I ll insulate a telescopic mirror so I can get a better look at which ones are them
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
                  At 01:46 AM 9/10/99 , you wrote:
                  >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                  >
                  >Our U.S. Air Force SAGE system had 26 sites around the periphery of the
                  >country, with about 58,000 vacuum tubes (valves) at each site. One of my
                  >responsibilities was to do a study on the advisability/timing etc. of mass
                  >tube replacement (circa 1960). We used to check tubes for microphonics
                  >(specifically, the 2399 tube, a twin triode with cathode to grid and grid to
                  >plate spacing of but .002 inches) by tapping them with a pencil. These were
                  >in the magnetic drum units; if a tube was "bad" it would induce a drum parity
                  >error. [We also had a "lights out" check, wherein we turned out the room
                  >lights and visually scanned for burned out filaments.]
                  >
                  >The engineers did some deep down checking, and found out that a good tap with
                  >a pencil gave the tube a 5 or 6 G impact, and that many perfectly good tubes
                  >would fail the test. They ruled the lights out check as OK.

                  I tried the "lights out test" most seem to have a glow around them , I'll
                  insulate a telescopic mirror so I can get a better look at which ones are
                  them all some are very hard to see access when the Grundig is turned on.

                  >Have never heard of any admonition to not touch the tubes with hands, since
                  >the glass is impervious, and the operating temperature low. However, I made a
                  >trip to see the glassblower at National Bureau of Standards, and there are
                  >some quartz tubes, and uses thereof, which are absolutely ruined if hand oils
                  >get on them.

                  As an Electrician it is an absolute sin to touch the glass on any quartz
                  halogen bulb <20w to 1500w> with your bare hands as the glass has an
                  extremely high operating temperature , ideally any low wattage QH bulbs ie:
                  roof mounted downlights should be sealed , larger units 300 to 1500 watts
                  should not be exposed to air/moisture , they are an initial cheap purchase
                  but without proper ventilation & maintenence they burn out the ceramic lamp
                  holders and all sorts of thermal runaway carnage , <avoid if possible>

                  > Can't recall specifically what this situation was. Also, the
                  >high-temperature high-wattage quartz lamps used in sodium, mercury vapor and
                  >halogen filament lamps also must not be touched, as the human skin oils
                  >attack the quartz at these high temperatures.

                  A 400W metal halide , merc vapour , or sodium vapour is much more forgiving
                  and much longer lasting.Bare & reasonably clean hands can handle these type
                  of bulbs.

                  My main worry as pointed out by graham gunderson is that if i touch the
                  valves the painted on ID numbers will fall off , fortunately there is a
                  good circut diagram that has the original valve numbers & position of each
                  valve , think twice act once

                  thank all

                  JB
                • graham gunderson
                  FYI: The tube material for sodium-vapor lamps is fused aluminum oxide. Sodium vapor will chew through quartz in a matter of seconds. Though the high-efficiency
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
                    FYI:
                    The tube material for sodium-vapor lamps is fused aluminum oxide. Sodium
                    vapor will chew through quartz in a matter of seconds.
                    Though the high-efficiency of sodium lamps was known for about a century,
                    they did not become a reality 'til fused aluminum oxide - translucent and
                    impervious - became available in the late '70s.
                    -Graham
                  • coexusa
                    Dear Wallace, Jim and List: I can confirm both Jim and Wallace s stories. I worked around some of these computers in the mid-70 s. We have come a long way
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 8, 1999
                      Dear Wallace, Jim and List:

                      I can confirm both Jim and Wallace's stories. I worked around some of these
                      computers in the mid-70's. We have come a long way since then.

                      Cheers,

                      Dye Hawley

                      >From: Wallace Edward Brand <webrand@...>
                      >
                      >In the course of my work on the litigation involving the cost of the use of
                      >AT&T's lines for transmitting digital data in the early 1960s, I visited a
                      SAGE
                      >site near Hopewell, VA. The operator there said that the enormous tube
                      type
                      >computer used to making chirping noises in a recognizeable merry little
                      tune when
                      >it was operating properly. When the tune changed, there was something
                      wrong.
                      >Those computers were immense perhaps five or six feet high and deep, and
                      perhaps
                      >thirty or so feet long, to my aging recollection. I'm told there is
                      currently
                      >more computing power in a PC than in one of those. All hail to the
                      integrated
                      >circuit and Silicon Valley. Wallace Edward Brand
                      >
                      >Jim Farrer wrote:
                      >
                      >> From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                      >>
                      >> Our U.S. Air Force SAGE system had 26 sites around the periphery of the
                      >> country, with about 58,000 vacuum tubes (valves) at each site. One of my
                      >> responsibilities was to do a study on the advisability/timing etc. of
                      mass
                      >> tube replacement (circa 1960). We used to check tubes for microphonics
                      >> (specifically, the 2399 tube, a twin triode with cathode to grid and grid
                      to
                      >> plate spacing of but .002 inches) by tapping them with a pencil. These
                      were
                      >> in the magnetic drum units; if a tube was "bad" it would induce a drum
                      parity
                      >> error. [We also had a "lights out" check, wherein we turned out the room
                      >> lights and visually scanned for burned out filaments.]
                      >>
                      >> The engineers did some deep down checking, and found out that a good tap
                      with
                      >> a pencil gave the tube a 5 or 6 G impact, and that many perfectly good
                      tubes
                      >> would fail the test. They ruled the lights out check as OK.
                      >>
                      >> Have never heard of any admonition to not touch the tubes with hands,
                      since
                      >> the glass is impervious, and the operating temperature low. However, I
                      made a
                      >> trip to see the glassblower at National Bureau of Standards, and there
                      are
                      >> some quartz tubes, and uses thereof, which are absolutely ruined if hand
                      oils
                      >> get on them. Can't recall specifically what this situation was. Also,
                      the
                      >> high-temperature high-wattage quartz lamps used in sodium, mercury vapor
                      and
                      >> halogen filament lamps also must not be touched, as the human skin oils
                      >> attack the quartz at these high temperatures.
                      >>
                      >> Jim Farrer
                      >>
                      >> Jet Black wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
                      >> >
                      >> > At 01:41 PM 8/10/99 , you wrote:
                      >> > >From: "graham gunderson" <infinitenergy@...>
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > >Hi JB
                      >> > >Cool setup. I am sort of a valve amp fanatic, I'm always playing music
                      >> > >through one, so of course they break and I'm used to fixing them. If
                      you
                      >> > >have any questions about tube replacement or whatever, I might be able
                      to
                      >> > >get you the answer.
                      >> > >
                      >> > >Good luck--
                      >> > >
                      >> > >Graham
                      >> >
                      >> > Thanks , the Grundig is actually my birthright .It has been in storage
                      for
                      >> > over a decade , I hauled it out so I can make some sort of analog to
                      >> > digital converter & vica versa.
                      >> > I would play with it for hours as a young man when ever I was at my
                      >> > Grandfathers house , strangely enough it was one of the few devices
                      that
                      >> > actually commanded respect and I gave it the respect it deserved ,
                      looks
                      >> > like it's paying off.
                      >> >
                      >> > >ps too bad about the vinyl
                      >> >
                      >> > It should play records OK like i said i think a preamp valve has been
                      >> > damaged & what a selection ! including the original soundtrack to "The
                      >> > Sound of Music" !!!!!! :))
                      >> > I also have access to an Onkyo "quadraphonic" stereo setup with
                      special
                      >> > quad records.
                      >> >
                      >> > If anyone can give me a brief runover of the do's and DONT"S involved
                      in
                      >> > the removal and checking of valves , I'd greatly appreciate it , I
                      imagine
                      >> > the oil on my skin can't be too good for it & I always use "canned air"
                      to
                      >> > blow out dust etc.
                      >> > Should I be wearing some "autopsy gloves" when handling valves ?
                      >> > Should I only handle the valves when they are at room temperature ?
                      >> >
                      >> > fairly simple questions in my mind but any local knowledge on or
                      offlist
                      >> > would be appreciated as the local olde book store has _nothing_ on
                      Valves.
                      >> > Yesterdays pickup was a 1931 edition of AUDELS NEW ELECTRIC LIBRARY
                      (red
                      >> > leather bound) light but very interesting reading :)
                      >> >
                      >> > JB
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >>
                    • Jet Black
                      ... I m pretty sure sodium vapour lamps wavelengths are used as the standard for measuring the speed of light in amongst the SI units somewhere.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 9, 1999
                        At 11:19 AM 9/10/99 , you wrote:
                        >From: "graham gunderson" <infinitenergy@...>
                        >
                        >FYI:
                        >The tube material for sodium-vapor lamps is fused aluminum oxide. Sodium
                        >vapor will chew through quartz in a matter of seconds.
                        >Though the high-efficiency of sodium lamps was known for about a century,
                        >they did not become a reality 'til fused aluminum oxide - translucent and
                        >impervious - became available in the late '70s.
                        >-Graham

                        I'm pretty sure "sodium vapour lamps" wavelengths are used as the
                        standard for measuring the speed of light in amongst the SI units somewhere.

                        <wild sci fi conjecture or reality>
                        Would FTL transport be possible or helped using a faster colour ?

                        JB
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