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Re: Re: Computer Keyboards? Fix or Throw Out?

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  • coexusa
    ... stuff. Dear Jet Black: I don t know? Why did the U.S. Government do this? Woody Harrelson (US Movie Star) has been fighting for years to legalize using
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 1, 1999
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      >From: Jet Black T2 <blackj@...>
      >Speaking of the War..
      >Why did the US .gov stop/prohibit hemp production after the war ?
      >Hemp <with no THC> was a commercially successfull product for making an
      >almighty amount of high quality product quickly & cheaply , I'd swear
      >"they" had a vested interest in the manufacture of expensive synthetic
      stuff.

      Dear Jet Black:

      I don't know? Why did the U.S. Government do this? Woody Harrelson (US
      Movie Star) has been fighting for years to legalize using hemp for clothes,
      shoes and many other products. It would be very inexpensive. Good
      question. Do you know?

      Cheers,

      Dye Hawley
    • Jet Black T2
      You guys should try living on an extremely large Island in the South Pacific , one has no option but to make do :) Due to our general isolation from the rest
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1, 1999
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        You guys should try living on an extremely large Island in the South
        Pacific ,
        one has no option but to make do :)
        Due to our general isolation from the rest of the "educated" planet ,
        improvisation , field hacks of Mc Guyver like proportions ,etc , still &
        probably will be the order of the day for quite some time.

        Speaking of the War..
        Why did the US .gov stop/prohibit hemp production after the war ?
        Hemp <with no THC> was a commercially successfull product for making an
        almighty amount of high quality product quickly & cheaply , I'd swear
        "they" had a vested interest in the manufacture of expensive synthetic stuff.

        JB

        From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>

        Hey, Andy --
        Sems to me you just have the good ole American spirit so asked for by our
        government
        during World war II: Use it up. Wear it our. Make it DO!
        Best regards,
        Jim Farrer

        >Andy Cleary wrote:
        >
        >> From: "Andy Cleary" <gemware2@...>
        >>
        >> Your words are very good, I agree 100% with your philosophy.
        Just out of
        >> curiosity, has anyone ever been apprehended for looking in a dumpster?
        >> Unfortunately I was (I believe it was because I am only 17), and like many
        >> people, the police man didn't understand what I was doing looking in there.

        Remember , I am recycling , I have no intention of entering this premesis ,
        If you wish to arrest & charge me with trespass whilst I am recycling here
        , put me into the system & clog up the court system even more do so it's
        your duty. <or similar>

        JB

        >
      • DORITY/CURRIE
        Hi Dye: You would have to go back to your large robberbarons (Duponts etc.) so to speak. It all has to do with cornering the market. Making one dependent
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 1, 1999
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          Hi Dye:

          You would have to go back to your large "robberbarons" (Duponts etc.) so to
          speak. It all has to do with cornering the market. Making one dependent on
          industry. The same practice is being put into place concerning over the
          counter vitamins and herbs. CODEC is doing to them what was done to hemp.
          Make it illegal then available only through perscription from a certified
          manufacturer.(NALSET)

          coexusa wrote:

          > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
          >
          > >From: Jet Black T2 <blackj@...>
          > >Speaking of the War..
          > >Why did the US .gov stop/prohibit hemp production after the war ?
          > >Hemp <with no THC> was a commercially successfull product for making an
          > >almighty amount of high quality product quickly & cheaply , I'd swear
          > >"they" had a vested interest in the manufacture of expensive synthetic
          > stuff.
          >
          > Dear Jet Black:
          >
          > I don't know? Why did the U.S. Government do this? Woody Harrelson (US
          > Movie Star) has been fighting for years to legalize using hemp for clothes,
          > shoes and many other products. It would be very inexpensive. Good
          > question. Do you know?
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Dye Hawley
          >
          >
        • Reese
          ... It s traceable to Wm. Randolph Hearst and his paper/publishing empire, Pancho Villa and his marijuaneros. Hemp could be used to make paper, was less
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 1, 1999
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            At 02:29 AM 10/1/99 -0700, Jet Black T2 wrote:
            >From: Jet Black T2 <blackj@...>
            >
            >You guys should try living on an extremely large Island in the South
            >Pacific ,
            >one has no option but to make do :)
            >Due to our general isolation from the rest of the "educated" planet ,
            >improvisation , field hacks of Mc Guyver like proportions ,etc , still &
            >probably will be the order of the day for quite some time.
            >
            >Speaking of the War..
            >Why did the US .gov stop/prohibit hemp production after the war ?
            >Hemp <with no THC> was a commercially successfull product for making an
            >almighty amount of high quality product quickly & cheaply , I'd swear
            >"they" had a vested interest in the manufacture of expensive synthetic stuff.

            It's traceable to Wm. Randolph Hearst and his paper/publishing empire,
            Pancho Villa and his marijuaneros. Hemp could be used to make paper, was
            less expensive than current technological methodologies and was a threat to
            Hearsts empire, so he used his clout to get hemp outlawed,,, in the 30s.
            P. Villa figures in by raiding the US, to get US authorities to follow him
            into mexico, where they "discovered" some of what Hearst was doing there,
            causing Hearst some significant business losses. Getting Hemp outlawed was
            vital to Hearst maintaining power, Villa was the vehicle Hearst used to
            sell the need for outlawing it to the public (and gov't).

            Reese
          • Don Gibbs
            Dear Reese, The timing seems a bit off here. Black Jack Pershing s punitive raid into Mexico after Villa was in 1916. Villa was pardoned and retired from
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 2, 1999
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              Dear Reese,

              The timing seems a bit off here. 'Black Jack' Pershing's punitive raid
              into Mexico after Villa was in 1916. Villa was pardoned and retired from
              politics in 1920 and was assassinated in 1923.

              Some of the posts talked about 'the war'. I assumed they meant WW2, or are
              we talking about WW1?

              Best Regards,

              Don Gibbs

              ----------
              > From: Reese <reeza@...>
              > Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Re: Computer Keyboards? Fix or Throw Out?
              > Date: Saturday, October 02, 1999 1:13 AM

              <snip>

              > It's traceable to Wm. Randolph Hearst and his paper/publishing empire,
              > Pancho Villa and his marijuaneros. Hemp could be used to make paper, was
              > less expensive than current technological methodologies and was a threat
              to
              > Hearsts empire, so he used his clout to get hemp outlawed,,, in the 30s.
              > P. Villa figures in by raiding the US, to get US authorities to follow
              him
              > into mexico, where they "discovered" some of what Hearst was doing there,
              > causing Hearst some significant business losses. Getting Hemp outlawed
              was
              > vital to Hearst maintaining power, Villa was the vehicle Hearst used to
              > sell the need for outlawing it to the public (and gov't).
              >
              > Reese
            • Reese
              You re right, the timing of that is off somewhat,,, this is scant on dates but does provide more detail,,, paragraphs 2, 3 & 4 are more informative than 1
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 3, 1999
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                You're right, the timing of that is off somewhat,,, this is scant on dates
                but does provide more detail,,, paragraphs 2, 3 & 4 are more informative
                than 1 (which is largely background on opium and cocaine)
                http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/hemp2.shtml

                Reese

                At 09:42 PM 10/2/99 -0500, Don Gibbs wrote:
                >From: "Don Gibbs" <dongibbs@...>
                >
                >Dear Reese,
                >
                >The timing seems a bit off here. 'Black Jack' Pershing's punitive raid
                >into Mexico after Villa was in 1916. Villa was pardoned and retired from
                >politics in 1920 and was assassinated in 1923.
                >
                >Some of the posts talked about 'the war'. I assumed they meant WW2, or are
                >we talking about WW1?
                >
                >Best Regards,
                >
                >Don Gibbs
                >
                >----------
                >> From: Reese <reeza@...>
                >> Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Re: Computer Keyboards? Fix or Throw Out?
                >> Date: Saturday, October 02, 1999 1:13 AM
                >
                ><snip>
                >
                >> It's traceable to Wm. Randolph Hearst and his paper/publishing empire,
                >> Pancho Villa and his marijuaneros. Hemp could be used to make paper, was
                >> less expensive than current technological methodologies and was a threat
                >to
                >> Hearsts empire, so he used his clout to get hemp outlawed,,, in the 30s.
                >> P. Villa figures in by raiding the US, to get US authorities to follow
                >him
                >> into mexico, where they "discovered" some of what Hearst was doing there,
                >> causing Hearst some significant business losses. Getting Hemp outlawed
                >was
                >> vital to Hearst maintaining power, Villa was the vehicle Hearst used to
                >> sell the need for outlawing it to the public (and gov't).
                >>
                >> Reese
                >
                >>
                >
              • Fred W. Bach
                Dye, I knew that if I waited long enough I would be vindicated. You made a good comment on the political office . I think our mutual arguing skills and
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 11, 1999
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                  Dye,

                  I knew that if I waited long enough I would be vindicated.

                  You made a good comment on the 'political office'. I think our
                  mutual arguing skills and persistence says something about us.
                  We are driven by the principles we believe in and we aren't
                  afraid to say so. Apparently we provide a little light
                  entertainment at the same time....

                  I read Computing Canada magazine, generally cover to cover.
                  I recently found a very good article, pertinent to our discussion.
                  So I wrote to the publisher for permission to quote it here.
                  I get a free subscription, and, in fact, many on this list MAY
                  also be entitled to their own hardcopy subscription too,
                  delivered free to your home or at least your office. In return
                  for permission to quote the article you will find below, it was
                  suggested by the Computing Canada publisher that I invite all
                  our list readers to go to
                  http://www.plesman.com
                  and click on Computing Canada, and then subscribe.

                  Now down to work. Comments interspersed.

                  coexusa wrote:

                  > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                  >
                  > Dear Fred,
                  >
                  > There is so much rhetoric between the two of us... I think that we should
                  > both run for office. GRIN. First off, I am not necessarily RICH.

                  Note that political word "necessarily". It says a lot. In other
                  words, you *might* be rolling in the dough, or, like myself, you
                  might not. It's just that you're not saying. I can understand that.

                  > Second,
                  > I wish you would stop bashing the USA with your comments about recycling.


                  Not a chance, see the article below, and I agree that British
                  Columbia is barely any better. The culture of the USA, among
                  other countries, has a few serious problems which we have no
                  problem in broaching on this list. This love of the almighty
                  dollar is only one of them. Guns and cigarettes are others.


                  > I
                  > have personally witnessed plenty of waste and throwing out in British
                  > Columbia.

                  Indeed.

                  > Primarily because I spent 15 summers there and I feel like I am
                  > half Canadian, Eh? I won't bash Canada... if you stop bashing the USA.

                  Our finding fault with what people do in the USA, or in Canada for
                  that matter, isn't taking anything away from the goodness of those
                  countries.

                  But why hide the truth? Why cannot we recognize and discuss BOTH
                  the beauty and the warts of something? In that spirit, perhaps we
                  should write a tourism article or two on the beauty and other
                  wondrous attractions of our homelands.

                  In the article at the bottom of this letter, I want you to notice the
                  bad attitude of the North Americans to the necessary European
                  legislation! The CHIEF motivation of the US manufacturers was MONEY.
                  It is clear to many that, for environmental reasons, this attitude
                  must be fought. From the last paragraph it is clear that such
                  education is missing in technical schools and universities. I think
                  I'm on the side of the angels here, as it were.

                  > I was merely trying to point out that most of the new keyboards are
                  > engineered in such a manner that it is very difficult to repair them. They
                  > do NOT make replacement parts. If you want to ignore this fact, then, I
                  > can't stop you.

                  And I was pointing out that we should fight this rather than giving
                  in. If yur good enough ya can take anything apart. The keyboards I
                  have worked on were little or no problem, but I agree that I haven't
                  worked on keyboards made in the last couple years. Maybe some
                  manufacturers make all-sealed units. That's bad form. Designed to
                  pollute. And, as the article below will testify, we are having a
                  glut of computer things piling up. Right now it would fill a football
                  field to a height of a mile, and that's only the stuff we know about.


                  > It might interest you to know that I owned and operated the FIRST used
                  > Personal Computer business in Kirkland, WA. back in 1985. Ran it for 12
                  > years and I re-cycled at least 100,000 PC's. It was called Computer
                  > Exchange Northwest. So, I am NO stranger to being green.

                  Ah, yes. I am very thankful for people like yourself. You have the
                  abilities I always knew you had. But I noticed you used the word
                  "business". Just maybe your business venture and your commercial
                  repair business, at least to my way of thinking, possibly may have
                  resulted in your looking at SOME things from a chiefly monetary
                  point of view ??? Can you see the impression I am getting?
                  After working on ALL those computers, printers, photocopiers,
                  which you must have done to stay in *business* and make *money*,
                  for all those years, who could blame you? Now and then the
                  frustration will slip out. We all get tired of our jobs now and then!


                  > I still say that you are a bit over-zealous in your cause.

                  Sure, we might say that. But if you think I'm bad, just wait 'til
                  you read the article below. The Europeans are passing recycle
                  legislation and it includes cell phones and appliances.

                  > I am probably
                  > one of the "greenest" people you have ever met...but, because I suggested
                  > that someone replace a keyboard instead of fix it... you got "radical" on
                  > me. OK.. fine. I can take it. I guess we can agree to disagree.

                  So because you recycled all those computers in an earlier life, that
                  now gives you the right to tell people with bad keyboards that they
                  should just a-priori toss them and buy new ones for ten or twenty
                  bucks each?? No, I do NOT see that logic. I would agree with you
                  that they should buy a new keyboard IF they do not just toss the old
                  one in the garbage. See the article below.


                  > But...
                  > please stop saying that I am motivated by money, etc, etc, etc. You don't
                  > know me that well Fred.

                  OK. Sorry. Rather bad choice of words on my part. How unpolitical of
                  me! Wash out my mouth, as it were. Let's change that from 'money'
                  to 'monetary considerations'. And, upon reflection, I was confusing
                  what you were *saying* with what you may be *doing* yourself. Two
                  totally different things, I'm sure. I'm confident you're actually
                  a very green-sensitive person in practise.

                  However, it is VERY clear to me that your prime argument in saying
                  'toss the dirty keyboard' was its low PRICE. You made that
                  abundantly clear. And that was the very crux of your argument.
                  You even talked about the law of diminishing returns. I'd certainly
                  call that encouraging others to be motivated by monetary
                  considerations, wouldn't you? As far as I can see, it is a prima
                  face case. I will give you the benefit of equating time with money.


                  > If I offended your environmental "senses" then, so
                  > be it. We all waste items in our own way. Nobody's perfect, Fred. I am
                  > sure that I could come to your home and find examples of waste. But, I will
                  > not pursue that one. For now...lets just call this a draw and move on.

                  Or, <grin> what you might find is a collection like Redd Foxx's place
                  on TV (Sandford & Son was the name of the show), good old cars,
                  lawnmowers, some bicycles, some tools and all. OK, my place is a lot
                  neater than Redd Foxx's TV place, and I might not have as much junk
                  as he did. And, I don't have a scruffy old beard. One of my
                  favourite places is the collection of auto wreckers just down River
                  Road from me, but I do like the ones that are neater and better
                  organized like up in and around Edmonton.

                  I might agree to wasting a little energy and time.

                  Cheers,

                  .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are only my own.


                  Here's the article.

                  Computing Canada Magazine published by Plesman Communications
                  September 10, 1999. Volume 25, Number 34.

                  The text of this article can be found at:

                  http://www.plesman.com/Archives/cc/1999/Sept/2534/cc253415a.html

                  TITLE: PC makers trash recycling plans

                  ABSTRACT:
                  North American electronics manufacturers say everyone
                  should help to reduce computer junk

                  [ That's the nice way of saying that they don't want to take
                  the responsibility themselves or have it forced upon them .... FWB]
                  >
                  > By Elynn Wareham
                  >
                  > North American PC and electronics manufacturers fear that
                  > if a European Union (EU) directive forcing them to
                  > recycle their products passes this fall, already tight
                  > profit margins will be squeezed even further.
                  >
                  > The EU's "take back" initiative establishes an Extended
                  > Producer Responsibility (EPR) which places legal and
                  > financial responsibility on the producers of electronic
                  > and electrical goods throughout the life cycle of their
                  > products, from design through to end-of-life.
                  >
                  > That means PC owners could return their obsolete
                  > equipment to the manufacturer.
                  >
                  > But computer manufacturers won't be the only ones
                  > affected by the legislation.
                  >
                  > Any household appliances, cell phones, medical equipment
                  > and even toys that use electronics would also fall under
                  > the proposal's requirements.
                  >
                  > This fall, members of the European Parliament are
                  > expected to vote on the Waste from Electrical and
                  > Electronic Equipment directive, which first came out in
                  > late 1997.
                  >
                  > But the directive is under attack from U.S.-based
                  > electronics firms and is in danger of being significantly
                  > weakened before it can be implemented, according to the
                  > San Jose, Calif.-based, Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition
                  > (SVTC), an environmental group focused on the high-tech
                  > industry.
                  >
                  > According to Beverley Thorpe, director of Clean
                  > Production Action, a Montreal-based organization focused
                  > on clean production strategies which has partnered with
                  > SVTC, EPR is an important policy.
                  >
                  > That's because producers will only work toward cleaner
                  > product design � the phase-out of hazardous materials
                  > used in products as well as designs that will make for
                  > easier disassembly, reuse and recycling � if they are
                  > required to take back their products, she says.
                  >
                  > Thorpe says 66 to 70 per cent of all computers ever sold
                  > in North America are estimated to still be sitting in
                  > basements and attics.
                  >
                  > And according to industry estimates, she says, by 2000,
                  > old computer junk in the U.S. alone will fill a football
                  > field piled 1.6 km high.
                  >
                  > While some manufacturers offer take-back programs for
                  > their large corporate clients, they have yet to extend
                  > this service to consumers, says Thorpe.
                  >
                  > It is unlikely, however, that this type of action will be
                  > seen at the federal level in either Canada or the U.S.
                  > any time soon, she says.
                  >
                  > "We don't have the progressive policies because our
                  > incineration and our landfill (facilities) are still
                  > plentiful, especially in Canada."
                  >
                  > But while reducing or eliminating the problem of
                  > computer-cluttered landfills is certainly a worthwhile
                  > aim, the EU's directive is not the way to go, says David
                  > Isaacs, director of environmental affairs for the
                  > Arlington, Va.-based Electronics Industry Alliance.
                  >
                  > The alliance is a member organization for all sectors of
                  > the electronics industry.
                  >
                  > According to Isaacs, certain aspects of the directive go
                  > well beyond the recycling of products and address the
                  > product's actual design.
                  >
                  > This is one of the things that makes the directive so
                  > controversial, he says.
                  >
                  > Legislation on the design of electronic products, he
                  > says, should not be drafted by bureaucrats who have
                  > little expertise in the area.
                  >
                  > Isaacs cites the directive's prohibition of the use of
                  > lead to solder microchips onto the motherboards by 2004.
                  >
                  > The EU's directive will still allow lead to be used in
                  > the glass of cathode ray tubes, light bulbs and
                  > fluorescent tubes as well as for protection against
                  > radiation.
                  >
                  > He says his organization is concerned that the drafters
                  > of this directive have not analyzed the availability of
                  > substitutes, their cost, their reliability, and, more
                  > importantly, their environmental impact.
                  >
                  > "It is very troubling to have these sort of
                  > pronouncements made on the basis of wishful thinking," he
                  > says.
                  >
                  > Industry may very well be forced to make a senseless
                  > tradeoff by replacing the materials presently used with
                  > ones that may cause more serious environmental damage in
                  > the long run.
                  >
                  > Isaacs also dislikes the fact that the EU directive also
                  > applies to historic waste.
                  >
                  > Although he says the producers agree they have some
                  > responsibility for the products they make, manufacturers
                  > don't feel they should carry sole responsibility.
                  >
                  > According to Isaacs, the Electronics Industry Alliance
                  > advocates shared waste responsibility, where producers,
                  > local governments and consumers all have different
                  > responsibilities throughout the product chain.
                  >
                  > Isaacs cites the collection of recycable goods by local
                  > governments as one example.
                  >
                  > Local governments already have the proper infrastructure
                  > in place to complete this task, says Isaacs, adding that
                  > it would be very expensive and inefficient for government
                  > and industry to have parallel infrastructures.
                  >
                  > But being environmentally friendly doesn't necessarily
                  > make a company less competitive, says Willem Vanderburg,
                  > director of the Centre for Technology and Social
                  > Development at the University of Toronto.
                  >
                  > "The conventional wisdom that to be environmentally
                  > responsible is much more expensive is nonsense," he says.
                  >
                  > "Think of pollutants simply as wasted resources: the more
                  > you pollute, the more resources you waste."
                  >
                  > According to Thorpe, recycling computers could mean the
                  > retrieval of some valuable components such as the chips,
                  > the heavy metals and the various bits of gold, platinum
                  > and copper used in their assembly.
                  >
                  > While North American landfill may still be plentiful,
                  > says Vanderburg, it will become less so. The challenge of
                  > what to do with our waste, however, will remain the same.
                  >
                  > Vanderburg says his research shows that engineers are
                  > taught virtually nothing about how technology affects
                  > human society and the biosphere, nor how to adjust
                  > designs to minimize harmful environmental effects.


                  End of Article.

                  .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are only my own.
                • coexusa
                  Dear Fred: Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the monetary comments you made but I want you to understand something. During
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 12, 1999
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                    Dear Fred:

                    Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                    "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something. During
                    the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                    family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being a
                    good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you see
                    your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                    experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.

                    Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                    face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to do
                    this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                    Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think you
                    should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                    their method of making products. This is where the main problem is. For
                    people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard (or
                    whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that will
                    fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the PEOPLE
                    can help.

                    If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                    level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.

                    Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.

                    Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)

                    Dye
                  • Jim Farrer
                    Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL other orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much prefer* stuff
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 13, 1999
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                      Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL other
                      orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much prefer* stuff
                      right outta the store. It can't require any work on their part. Broke TV?
                      Don't call Them to come get it for free. Computer? Don't call them unless it's
                      in perfect working order.

                      The way out of this snag is *not* to change the ideas you've expressed (and that
                      I agree with), but for these organizations to shape up.

                      Jim Farrer

                      coexusa wrote:

                      > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                      >
                      > Dear Fred:
                      >
                      > Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                      > "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something. During
                      > the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                      > family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being a
                      > good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you see
                      > your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                      > experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.
                      >
                      > Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                      > face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to do
                      > this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                      > Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think you
                      > should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                      > their method of making products. This is where the main problem is. For
                      > people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard (or
                      > whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that will
                      > fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the PEOPLE
                      > can help.
                      >
                      > If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                      > level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.
                      >
                      > Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.
                      >
                      > Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)
                      >
                      > Dye
                      >
                      >
                    • coexusa
                      Dear Jim, You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are picky about getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my apologies
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 13, 1999
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                        Dear Jim,

                        You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are "picky" about
                        getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my
                        apologies to the list. However, in most cities there are OTHER
                        organizations that will take broken items. Just go to the Yellow Pages and
                        start digging. We have a GoodWill here in Spokane that will take broken
                        items. Also, a Value Village that will take certain items. I guess my
                        point here is that it does take a little effort on your part to find the
                        organizations that will take broken items and fix them. Most cities have at
                        least one organization like this...even if it is not a National one.

                        Cheers,

                        Dye Hawley

                        >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                        >
                        >Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL
                        other
                        >orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much prefer*
                        stuff
                        >right outta the store. It can't require any work on their part. Broke TV?
                        >Don't call Them to come get it for free. Computer? Don't call them unless
                        it's
                        >in perfect working order.
                        >
                        >The way out of this snag is *not* to change the ideas you've expressed (and
                        that
                        >I agree with), but for these organizations to shape up.
                        >
                        >Jim Farrer
                        >
                        >coexusa wrote:
                        >
                        >> From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                        >>
                        >> Dear Fred:
                        >>
                        >> Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                        >> "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something.
                        During
                        >> the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                        >> family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being
                        a
                        >> good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you
                        see
                        >> your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                        >> experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.
                        >>
                        >> Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                        >> face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to
                        do
                        >> this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                        >> Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think you
                        >> should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                        >> their method of making products. This is where the main problem is. For
                        >> people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard
                        (or
                        >> whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that
                        will
                        >> fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the
                        PEOPLE
                        >> can help.
                        >>
                        >> If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                        >> level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.
                        >>
                        >> Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.
                        >>
                        >> Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)
                        >>
                        >> Dye
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >>
                        >
                      • Fred W. Bach
                        ... Dye, We have those same organizations here, and I buy items from Value Village. A fellow *can* get some great deals there on Electronics! Then I see the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 13, 1999
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                          coexusa wrote:

                          > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                          >
                          > Dear Jim,
                          >
                          > You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are "picky" about
                          > getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my
                          > apologies to the list. However, in most cities there are OTHER
                          > organizations that will take broken items. Just go to the Yellow Pages and
                          > start digging. We have a GoodWill here in Spokane that will take broken
                          > items. Also, a Value Village that will take certain items. I guess my
                          > point here is that it does take a little effort on your part to find the
                          > organizations that will take broken items and fix them. Most cities have at
                          > least one organization like this...even if it is not a National one.
                          >

                          Dye,

                          We have those same organizations here, and I buy items from Value
                          Village. A fellow *can* get some great deals there on Electronics!
                          Then I see the little shops where the fellows work on the 'goods'
                          the receive and I know that it must be only a tiny tiny fraction of
                          what's out there.

                          So I really like your suggestions but I'm a little afraid that it's not
                          common enough - nor that the organizations you mentioned could
                          possibly handle the glut of used keyboards;/etc. if those
                          organizations were to receive *all* the computer garbage that
                          people toss out, or even a large fraction of it.

                          If they could, then the Europeans would not have the problem that
                          they're having over there with all this surplus appliance junk clogging
                          up their landfills. Furthermore there would be no *need* for
                          legislation! What you say is true in some major areas I'm sure,
                          but I'm just as sure it's not universal - not in Europe, nor
                          in North America. It's just that we still have quite a bit of
                          landfill space on this continent. And for the true junk - even the
                          goodwill would have to toss it out. I truly like the idea of
                          having the manufacturers change their act to make their products
                          recyclable, and making the factories take the bad ones back!
                          Now yur talkin' ! Amen to that!

                          .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are just mine.
                        • Fred W. Bach
                          ... Well expressed. Point taken. You win. I thought your original position was just as black and white as mine, but I accept what you say above and I must
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 13, 1999
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                            coexusa wrote:

                            > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                            >
                            > Dear Fred:
                            >
                            > Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                            > "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something. During
                            > the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                            > family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being a
                            > good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you see
                            > your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                            > experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.

                            Well expressed. Point taken. You win. I thought your original
                            position was just as black and white as mine, but I accept what
                            you say above and I must commend you on your long project.
                            Still leaves one question unanswered. (See below near the end.)


                            > Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                            > face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to do
                            > this.

                            How correct you are. But a big part of the 'aptitude' is simply
                            desire. The real problem is that people don't have the desire. Get
                            the desire, and everything else will follow, probably. But without
                            the desire, even the best talent is wasted.



                            > Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                            > Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life.

                            You mean that some people are just total klutzes? Couldn't
                            drive a nail or tighten a screw? Yup. You're right. Nobody
                            like that on this list, is there... ?


                            > I think you
                            > should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                            > their method of making products.

                            Absolutely agreed. I would feel sorry for the fellow who had to cut
                            open a welded plastic case. That's why I always try to but cassettes
                            with screws instead of those ultrasonically welded cases which just
                            generate more garbage! I think the ONLY things they listen to are
                            money and legislation. Nothing else. Public opinion doesn't matter
                            a hoot unless it translates into one or both of those things! Force
                            or monetary pressure are the only things that work - self policing
                            doesn't and never has.


                            > This is where the main problem is. For
                            > people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard (or
                            > whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that will
                            > fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the PEOPLE
                            > can help.

                            Or any other appropriate agency - say like yourself. ;-)


                            > If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                            > level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.

                            There is a chance IF it is handled correctly. But the little agencies
                            at the moment just do not have the capacity to handle all that factory
                            output. The only answer is either for the government to set up
                            recycling agencies (they tried this in Saskatchewan with car parts
                            but it didn't make out so well) or else force the manufacturers to
                            take them back - and then watch the manufacturers like a hawk
                            so that they don't resort to 'midnight recycling' in the ocean
                            or some huge pit somewhere. I wonder if those computer parts can be
                            ground up and added to concrete for buildings or asphalt for roads.

                            The one question that remained is exactly how your 12 years of
                            experience at recycling computer parts affected your outlook.
                            I appreciate that recycling can be extremely tedious, and annoying
                            and that one may feel it's a thankless job. I can understand how
                            every once in a while a fellow might want to slack off a little....

                            Cheers,

                            .. Fred Bach music@... Just my opinions....
                          • Jim Farrer
                            Thanks for the ideas, Dye. I ll look them up. Broke my heart a couple years ago to break the tubulation on the picture tube and throw out for trash a fully
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 14, 1999
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                              Thanks for the ideas, Dye. I'll look them up. Broke my heart a couple years
                              ago to break the tubulation on the picture tube and throw out for trash a fully
                              workable color TV. 19" as I recall. Super big, heavy cabinet. Parts sent out
                              by Heathkit. Stack of books 6 inches thick. NOBODY (unfortunately including
                              young friends) wanted it.

                              Jim Farrer

                              coexusa wrote:

                              > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                              >
                              > Dear Jim,
                              >
                              > You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are "picky" about
                              > getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my
                              > apologies to the list. However, in most cities there are OTHER
                              > organizations that will take broken items. Just go to the Yellow Pages and
                              > start digging. We have a GoodWill here in Spokane that will take broken
                              > items. Also, a Value Village that will take certain items. I guess my
                              > point here is that it does take a little effort on your part to find the
                              > organizations that will take broken items and fix them. Most cities have at
                              > least one organization like this...even if it is not a National one.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              >
                              > Dye Hawley
                              >
                              > >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                              > >
                              > >Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL
                              > other
                              > >orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much prefer*
                              > stuff
                              > >right outta the store. It can't require any work on their part. Broke TV?
                              > >Don't call Them to come get it for free. Computer? Don't call them unless
                              > it's
                              > >in perfect working order.
                              > >
                              > >The way out of this snag is *not* to change the ideas you've expressed (and
                              > that
                              > >I agree with), but for these organizations to shape up.
                              > >
                              > >Jim Farrer
                              > >
                              > >coexusa wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                              > >>
                              > >> Dear Fred:
                              > >>
                              > >> Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                              > >> "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something.
                              > During
                              > >> the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                              > >> family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being
                              > a
                              > >> good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you
                              > see
                              > >> your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                              > >> experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.
                              > >>
                              > >> Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                              > >> face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to
                              > do
                              > >> this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                              > >> Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think you
                              > >> should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                              > >> their method of making products. This is where the main problem is. For
                              > >> people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard
                              > (or
                              > >> whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that
                              > will
                              > >> fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the
                              > PEOPLE
                              > >> can help.
                              > >>
                              > >> If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                              > >> level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.
                              > >>
                              > >> Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.
                              > >>
                              > >> Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)
                              > >>
                              > >> Dye
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • coexusa
                              Fred Bach wrote: (Big SNIP) . I wonder if those computer parts can be ... Actually, there are many companies that will take your old PC motherboards, video
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 15, 1999
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                                Fred Bach wrote: (Big SNIP)
                                . I wonder if those computer parts can be
                                > ground up and added to concrete for buildings or asphalt for roads.

                                Actually, there are many companies that will take your old PC motherboards,
                                video cards, etc and extract all the metals out of them. Then, they melt
                                and seperate the different types of plastics which remain. These companies
                                are all over the US. In fact, some of these companies hire people to
                                "cruise" the dumpsters in the Silicon Valley to retreive thrown out computer
                                parts/components. If you would like further information...just email me
                                personally.

                                Cheers,

                                Dye Hawley
                              • Jim Farrer
                                Dear List, Just noticed this in Wired News, thought it might be interesting. Right there in your backyard, Dye.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 18, 1999
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                                  Dear List,
                                  Just noticed this in Wired News, thought it might be interesting. Right there
                                  in your backyard, Dye.

                                  http://www.seattletimes.com/news/technology/html98/paul_19991031.html

                                  Jim Farrer

                                  coexusa wrote:

                                  > From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                  >
                                  > Dear Jim,
                                  >
                                  > You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are "picky" about
                                  > getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my
                                  > apologies to the list. However, in most cities there are OTHER
                                  > organizations that will take broken items. Just go to the Yellow Pages and
                                  > start digging. We have a GoodWill here in Spokane that will take broken
                                  > items. Also, a Value Village that will take certain items. I guess my
                                  > point here is that it does take a little effort on your part to find the
                                  > organizations that will take broken items and fix them. Most cities have at
                                  > least one organization like this...even if it is not a National one.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  >
                                  > Dye Hawley
                                  >
                                  > >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                                  > >
                                  > >Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL
                                  > other
                                  > >orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much prefer*
                                  > stuff
                                  > >right outta the store. It can't require any work on their part. Broke TV?
                                  > >Don't call Them to come get it for free. Computer? Don't call them unless
                                  > it's
                                  > >in perfect working order.
                                  > >
                                  > >The way out of this snag is *not* to change the ideas you've expressed (and
                                  > that
                                  > >I agree with), but for these organizations to shape up.
                                  > >
                                  > >Jim Farrer
                                  > >
                                  > >coexusa wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >> From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Dear Fred:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                                  > >> "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something.
                                  > During
                                  > >> the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting my
                                  > >> family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but, being
                                  > a
                                  > >> good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that you
                                  > see
                                  > >> your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been my
                                  > >> experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but, lets
                                  > >> face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability to
                                  > do
                                  > >> this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                                  > >> Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think you
                                  > >> should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to change
                                  > >> their method of making products. This is where the main problem is. For
                                  > >> people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken keyboard
                                  > (or
                                  > >> whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that
                                  > will
                                  > >> fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the
                                  > PEOPLE
                                  > >> can help.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and people
                                  > >> level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Dye
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • coexusa
                                  Dear Jim, Good article. I just happen to know ALL the people and names mentioned in the article and actually assisted some of them in getting started. I
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 18, 1999
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                                    Dear Jim,

                                    Good article. I just happen to know ALL the people and names mentioned in
                                    the article and actually assisted some of them in getting started. I
                                    started my used PC business back in 1985 before any of these people were in
                                    business. (not bragging...just stating a fact) After 12 years, in 1997, I
                                    finally phased my business down to a mere trickle (Computer Exchange USA) to
                                    go into the wholesale computer business and spend more time with my wife and
                                    children.

                                    After all, Fred, (Bach)... you can only do so much for so long to save the
                                    planet!!! We can't do it alone, Fred... so, everyone should pitch in.
                                    Thanks Jim for the article. It brought back good memories.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Dye Hawley

                                    >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                                    >
                                    >Dear List,
                                    >Just noticed this in Wired News, thought it might be interesting. Right
                                    there
                                    >in your backyard, Dye.
                                    >
                                    >http://www.seattletimes.com/news/technology/html98/paul_19991031.html
                                    >
                                    >Jim Farrer
                                    >
                                    >coexusa wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                    >>
                                    >> Dear Jim,
                                    >>
                                    >> You are correct that Salvation Army and some others are "picky" about
                                    >> getting working or broken items. I used the wrong example...and my
                                    >> apologies to the list. However, in most cities there are OTHER
                                    >> organizations that will take broken items. Just go to the Yellow Pages
                                    and
                                    >> start digging. We have a GoodWill here in Spokane that will take broken
                                    >> items. Also, a Value Village that will take certain items. I guess my
                                    >> point here is that it does take a little effort on your part to find the
                                    >> organizations that will take broken items and fix them. Most cities have
                                    at
                                    >> least one organization like this...even if it is not a National one.
                                    >>
                                    >> Cheers,
                                    >>
                                    >> Dye Hawley
                                    >>
                                    >> >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                                    >> >
                                    >> >Little snag here, Dye! Our experience with the Salvation Army (and ALL
                                    >> other
                                    >> >orgs which pick up your used merchandise) is that they would *much
                                    prefer*
                                    >> stuff
                                    >> >right outta the store. It can't require any work on their part. Broke
                                    TV?
                                    >> >Don't call Them to come get it for free. Computer? Don't call them
                                    unless
                                    >> it's
                                    >> >in perfect working order.
                                    >> >
                                    >> >The way out of this snag is *not* to change the ideas you've expressed
                                    (and
                                    >> that
                                    >> >I agree with), but for these organizations to shape up.
                                    >> >
                                    >> >Jim Farrer
                                    >> >
                                    >> >coexusa wrote:
                                    >> >
                                    >> >> From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Dear Fred:
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Good post on re-cycling. In general... I accept your apology on the
                                    >> >> "monetary" comments you made but I want you to understand something.
                                    >> During
                                    >> >> the 12 years that I ran Computer Exchange Northwest I was supporting
                                    my
                                    >> >> family. (Wife and 3 kids). My PRIME motivation was NOT money..but,
                                    being
                                    >> a
                                    >> >> good provider as well as recycling thousands of PC's. I think that
                                    you
                                    >> see
                                    >> >> your cause as black and white with no room for any grey. It has been
                                    my
                                    >> >> experience that life is NOT black and whites...but many greys.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Yes... we (you and I) can keep telling people to FIX things.... but,
                                    lets
                                    >> >> face reality Fred.... many people do NOT have the apptitude or ability
                                    to
                                    >> do
                                    >> >> this. Some people are left brain people and others are right brain.
                                    >> >> Nothing you or I can do about this. It is a fact of life. I think
                                    you
                                    >> >> should look at how we can realistically convince manufacturers to
                                    change
                                    >> >> their method of making products. This is where the main problem is.
                                    For
                                    >> >> people who can't fix things... I suggest they donate the broken
                                    keyboard
                                    >> (or
                                    >> >> whatever) to Good Will, Salvation Army or some other organization that
                                    >> will
                                    >> >> fix the product and re-sell it to help the poor. This is where the
                                    >> PEOPLE
                                    >> >> can help.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> If both methods are applied above...(both at the manufacturer and
                                    people
                                    >> >> level), then maybe the problem can be turned around.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Anyway... thanks for your comments and good to have you back.
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Hugs and Kisses, (GRIN. ... :^)
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >> Dye
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >
                                    >> >>
                                    >> >
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >>
                                  • Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations
                                    ... Dye, I agree with your last paragraph!! And, most wives and family need plenty of money and time. That goes without saying. But just how am I to read
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 19, 1999
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                                      >Message-ID: <01e101bf324a$e2b5d7c0$4b34cbcc@...>
                                      >From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                      >To: <usa-tesla@onelist.com>
                                      >Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:59:38 -0800
                                      >Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Re: Computer Keyboards? Fix or Throw Out?
                                      >
                                      >From: "coexusa" <coexusa@...>
                                      >
                                      >Dear Jim,
                                      >
                                      >Good article. I just happen to know ALL the people and names mentioned in
                                      >the article and actually assisted some of them in getting started. I
                                      >started my used PC business back in 1985 before any of these people were in
                                      >business. (not bragging...just stating a fact) After 12 years, in 1997, I
                                      >finally phased my business down to a mere trickle (Computer Exchange USA) to
                                      >go into the wholesale computer business and spend more time with my wife and
                                      >children.
                                      >
                                      >After all, Fred, (Bach)... you can only do so much for so long to save the
                                      >planet!!! We can't do it alone, Fred... so, everyone should pitch in.
                                      >Thanks Jim for the article. It brought back good memories.
                                      >
                                      >Cheers,
                                      >
                                      >Dye Hawley

                                      Dye,

                                      I agree with your last paragraph!! And, most wives and family need
                                      plenty of money and time. That goes without saying.

                                      But just how am I to read your statement:

                                      "you can only do so much for so long to save the planet!!!" ???

                                      Am I supposed to read it as an admission that the job got to you
                                      after all that time? No wonder. It would have gotten to me,
                                      that's for sure ... especially with the amazing speed at which the
                                      technology was changing and how quickly equipment which worked OK
                                      still became perfectly useless junk, overnight, as it were.

                                      What I get out of your statement is that there is no real money in
                                      computer recycling, that it is a thankless job, and those who do it
                                      get really jaded after a while (you lasted an amazing 12 years),
                                      and that you might now be part of the problem instead of being part
                                      of the solution? Is that what I am seeing? If you are answering
                                      'yes' to the first part of the question, well I saw that coming and
                                      I understand. But now we must go on to the second part of the
                                      question.

                                      And so you are telling us that you are in the wholesale computer
                                      business. This is MOST interesting! Most interesting indeed! Did
                                      someone pick up the slack in your locale when you phased out your
                                      computer-recycling business down to that trickle?

                                      Can you lay out for us, please, just what happens to the computers
                                      you sell, both immediately and in the end?

                                      Can you honestly tell us that suggesting that people NOT to fix
                                      their keyboards but just to buy new ones wasn't some form of
                                      self-promotion, albeit maybe even subconsciously? Hmmmm ??

                                      How do your company and yourself, personally and professionally,
                                      view the proposed European bill that would force the manufacturers
                                      (I image via the wholesalers) to accept back all the used and
                                      not-wanted machines (now junk) they sold?

                                      Thanks in advance.

                                      This discussion certainly is giving us all a deeper insight into
                                      the two of us. Cheers,

                                      Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@...
                                      TRIUMF (Canada's National Meson Lab.) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6278/7328
                                      4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074
                                      University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3
                                      "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death."
                                      These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
                                      They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.
                                    • coexusa
                                      ... in ... to ... and ... Sometimes Fred... I wonder if you don t analyze things too much!! GRIN. No... the answer is very simple...just as most things in
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 21, 1999
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                                        >>Dear Jim,
                                        >>
                                        >>Good article. I just happen to know ALL the people and names mentioned in
                                        >>the article and actually assisted some of them in getting started. I
                                        >>started my used PC business back in 1985 before any of these people were
                                        in
                                        >>business. (not bragging...just stating a fact) After 12 years, in 1997, I
                                        >>finally phased my business down to a mere trickle (Computer Exchange USA)
                                        to
                                        >>go into the wholesale computer business and spend more time with my wife
                                        and
                                        >>children.
                                        >>
                                        >>After all, Fred, (Bach)... you can only do so much for so long to save the
                                        >>planet!!! We can't do it alone, Fred... so, everyone should pitch in.
                                        >>Thanks Jim for the article. It brought back good memories.
                                        >>
                                        >>Cheers,
                                        >>
                                        >>Dye Hawley


                                        > But just how am I to read your statement:
                                        >
                                        > "you can only do so much for so long to save the planet!!!" ???
                                        >
                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > Am I supposed to read it as an admission that the job got to you
                                        > after all that time? No wonder. It would have gotten to me,
                                        > that's for sure ... especially with the amazing speed at which the
                                        > technology was changing and how quickly equipment which worked OK
                                        > still became perfectly useless junk, overnight, as it were.
                                        >
                                        Sometimes Fred... I wonder if you don't analyze things too much!! GRIN.
                                        No... the answer is very simple...just as most things in life are: I
                                        realized that I MUST spend more time with my wife and children. I made this
                                        commitment to my wife and I helped bring these children into this World. It
                                        is MY primary responsibility to raise these children and I can't do it
                                        working 16 hour days, now, can I Fred?

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > What I get out of your statement is that there is no real money in
                                        > computer recycling, that it is a thankless job, and those who do it
                                        > get really jaded after a while (you lasted an amazing 12 years),
                                        > and that you might now be part of the problem instead of being part
                                        > of the solution? Is that what I am seeing? If you are answering
                                        > 'yes' to the first part of the question, well I saw that coming and
                                        > I understand. But now we must go on to the second part of the
                                        > question.
                                        >
                                        Once again, Fred... you leap before you look. There is REAL money in
                                        computer recycling. There are millionaires out there in that business.
                                        There was money in it... but I place a higher value in my family than I do
                                        money.

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > And so you are telling us that you are in the wholesale computer
                                        > business. This is MOST interesting! Most interesting indeed! Did
                                        > someone pick up the slack in your locale when you phased out your
                                        > computer-recycling business down to that trickle?
                                        >
                                        Sheesh... Fred... give me a break! I was a pioneer (1985) in the Seattle
                                        area. There are at least 20 or more companies doing this now. Go back and
                                        read Jim's email where he mentions Re-PC, Computer Renessaince (8 of them by
                                        last count) and many others. There are more than ever now.

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > Can you lay out for us, please, just what happens to the computers
                                        > you sell, both immediately and in the end?
                                        >
                                        No... I cannot. There is no "tracking device" on the computers that I sell
                                        and it would be un-constitutional if there were. Also, a violation of
                                        privacy. Furthermore, Fred... you cannot (and should not) legislate morals
                                        or ethics. Society has to change and believe in recycling for it to be
                                        effective. This is done through education and people like you and me. You
                                        should know this.

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > Can you honestly tell us that suggesting that people NOT to fix
                                        > their keyboards but just to buy new ones wasn't some form of
                                        > self-promotion, albeit maybe even subconsciously? Hmmmm ??

                                        I don't know if I should even dignify this with an answer. You have never
                                        questioned my honesty or integrity and frankly, I am surprised that you are
                                        doing it now. NO... I did not suggest that people NOT fix their keyboards
                                        as some form of self-promotion!! Oh, yeah... I make about... .50cents
                                        commission per keyboard that I sell. I am really going to get rich on these
                                        babies, Fred. You know Fred... I think you are revealing something about
                                        yourself to the rest of us. You have "tunnel-vision" when you are
                                        emotionally and passionately involved in some cause

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > How do your company and yourself, personally and professionally,
                                        > view the proposed European bill that would force the manufacturers
                                        > (I image via the wholesalers) to accept back all the used and
                                        > not-wanted machines (now junk) they sold?

                                        I think that it is an illegal intrusion into the private lifes of all
                                        individuals by Government. I don't know what my company thinks...because I
                                        am an independant contractor. Fred... there are much better ways to solve
                                        enviromental and waste problems than using Government to force people to
                                        recycle. What are you? A Socialist or a Communist? Don't you value your
                                        freedom?

                                        Fred Bach wrote:
                                        > Thanks in advance.
                                        >
                                        > This discussion certainly is giving us all a deeper insight into
                                        > the two of us. Cheers,

                                        It certainly gave me a deeper insight to you.

                                        Dissapointed,

                                        Dye Hawley


                                        >
                                        > Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@...
                                        > TRIUMF (Canada's National Meson Lab.) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc
                                        6278/7328
                                        > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074
                                        > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3
                                        > "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life &
                                        death."
                                        > These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and
                                        question.
                                        > They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow
                                        workers.
                                        >
                                        >>
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