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Re: [usa-tesla] Re: Is there an attraction force between two Tesla Coils?

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  • Bert Hickman
    Hi Levi, ... Yes. ... Yes, assuming no losses. In reality, each successive peak is a bit less than the previous one due to losses (mainly secondary coil
    Message 1 of 65 , May 3, 2013
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      Hi Levi,

      Saber wrote:
      >
      > Hello Bert. Good! Alright, I know this sounds like nut and hair
      > splitting but this path seems so far, the only way to try and
      > illustrate my point. so lets continue assuming we still talk about a
      > 400kv tesla coil with a 20pf top load:
      >
      > 1-..at the instant the secondary winding-current is zero, the topload
      > is now fully charged i.e.: the top-toroid´s voltage is at
      > maximum(400kv) and so the top-toroid´s maximum q-charge is also
      > reached( which is 8uC) at the same instant, is this right so far?

      Yes.

      >
      > 2-Furthermore this same top toroid REACHES PEAK voltage and q-charge
      > 2 times each cycle, i.e. one positive peak and one negative peak,
      > Correct?

      Yes, assuming no losses. In reality, each successive peak is a bit less
      than the previous one due to losses (mainly secondary coil resistance).

      We can also solve for peak current on a lossless system. The energy in
      the resonating system is 1/2*CV^2 = 1.6 Joules. At 1/4 cycle before or
      after a voltage peak, the current is at a peak and topload voltage and
      charge (q) are both zero. Let's say that the secondary's inductance is
      50 milliHenries. Since we know that the energy in the resonator at
      maximum current is also 1.6 Joules, all of which is stored in the
      secondary inductance (as 1/2L*I^2), we can solve for I. Solving, we find
      that the maximum secondary current is 8 amperes.

      >
      > Thanks --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com

      You're welcome!

      Bert

      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> Hi Levi,
      >>
      >> You've got it!
      >>
      >> Saber wrote:
      >>> Thanks Bert!
      >>>
      >>> Indeed even a VDG reaches very high power levels in a discharge
      >>> but of course only in a very minute duration, its all about the
      >>> stored energy of course.
      >>>
      >>> I guess the answer to my puzzling wondering lies in the phase
      >>> shifted voltage and current sinewave, I knew somehow that the
      >>> maximum current and maximum voltage in the toroid couldn't occur
      >>> simultaneously. Although I don't get it quiet yet Im starting to
      >>> understand this:). But still I cant exactly imagine in my head
      >>> how the 90- phase shifted voltage and current plays out in the
      >>> top load. But wait, for instance, when the current is peaked in
      >>> the secondary coil, is the top toroid´s q-charge and thus voltage
      >>> zero at that instant?
      >>
      >> Exactly!
      >>
      >>>
      >>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>,
      >>> Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@> wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>> Hi Levi,
      >>>>
      >>>> You're correct! When the secondary is oscillating, energy is
      >>>> actually cycling back and forth between the magnetic field (the
      >>>>
      > inductance) and
      >>>> the electrical field (the capacitance) in the secondary-toroid
      >>>>
      > system.
      >>>> And, the peak current within the secondary winding is typically
      >>>>
      > several
      >>>> amperes, and can be tens of amperes for larger coils. However,
      >>>> the voltage and the current are 90 degrees out of phase, so
      >>>> when the
      > voltage
      >>>> is at a maximum, the current is zero and vice versa. You never
      >>>>
      > get peak
      >>>> voltage AND peak current at the same time. A well-constructed
      > secondary
      >>>> (with no sparking) has comparatively low losses, so it can
      >>>> "ring" for hundreds of cycles before decaying (exponentially).
      >>>>
      >>>> Even though the total energy in the oscillating
      >>>> secondary-toroid
      > pair is
      >>>> typically only joules or tens of joules (watt-seconds) for
      > small-medium
      >>>> coils, the peak power can still can be quite large if the
      >>>> stored
      > energy
      >>>> is rapidly dissipated. This occurs if the coil arcs to a solid
      >>>>
      > ground.
      >>>> Under this condition, all of the energy stored in the
      >>>> oscillating secondary-toroid discharges within a microsecond or
      >>>> less. Plugging in some numbers, let's take a secondary that was
      >>>> storing 10 joules of energy fully discharging within one
      >>>> microsecond. In this case,
      > the peak
      >>>> power in the resulting ground arc is 10 watt-seconds divided by
      >>>> the interval (1e-6 seconds) = 10 million watts! This is why
      >>>> output
      > sparks to
      >>>> ground are so loud and bright...
      >>>>
      >>>> Bert -- Bert Hickman Stoneridge Engineering
      >>>> http://www.capturedlightning.com
      >>>>
      > ***********************************************************************
      >
      >
      >>> World's source for "Captured Lightning" Lichtenberg Figure
      > sculptures,
      >>>> magnetically "shrunken" coins, and scarce/out of print
      >>>> technical
      > books
      >>>>
      > ***********************************************************************
      >
      >
      >>>
      >>>> Saber wrote:
      >>>>> I understand that the cause is that secondary LC is resonant
      >>>>> to the primary. Its just that I find it amazing how Tesla
      >>>>> coils do
      > what they
      >>>>> do. Just saying: since at the end you have to somehow charge
      >>>>> the topload-capacitor 200,000x4 times faster each second
      >>>>> shouldnt the amps required to feed that 20pF topload´s 200khz
      >>>>> sine wave at 400kv be then 3-6 Amps? The power thus is 6A x
      >>>>> 400kv?!. well ofcourse
      > that
      >>>>> cant be case but how though.. I don't get.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Best Regards levi
      >>>>>
      >>>>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, "McGalliard, Frederick
      >>>>> B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@> wrote:
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Right. Should look like a pure sine wave up to the point
      >>>>>> breakout
      >>>>> arcs distort the heck out of it and start to dump energy in
      >>>>> that rather spectacular way.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> From: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>> [mailto:usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Saber
      >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 11:06 AM To:
      >>> usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [usa-tesla]
      >>>>>> Re: Is there an attraction force between two
      >>>>> Tesla Coils?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Resonance. So that the topload is charged positively,
      >>>>>> discharged,
      >>>>> charged negatively and discharged each cycle of the 200khz,
      > correct?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>,
      >
      >
      >>>> "McGalliard, Frederick B"
      >>>>> <frederick.b.mcgalliard@<mailto:frederick.b.mcgalliard@>>
      >>>>> wrote:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Resonance. This is reactive power and not dissipated
      >>>>>>> power (The few
      >>>>> KW is dissipated power). SB ROM between 20 and 100 times the
      >>>>> actual dissipated power, depending on the quality of the
      >>>>> resonant circuit.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> From: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>> [mailto:usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>]
      >
      >
      >>>> On Behalf Of Saber
      >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 5:21 AM To:
      >>>>>>> usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> Subject: [usa-tesla] Re: Is there an attraction force
      >>>>>> between two
      >>>>> Tesla Coils?
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> In relation to the field emitted and received from a
      >>>>>>> capacitive
      >>>>> topload, there is one peculiar thing Im not sure about.
      >>>>> Common
      > T.C.s
      >>>>> have around 20pF toploads, operate at 200khz and around maybe
      >>>>> 400kv powered by at most a few kilowatts.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Here is the thing: how can the 20pf topload charge and
      >>>>>>> discharge
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>> 200,000 times a second(you need to fully charge the topload
      >>>>> in
      > 1/4 of
      >>>>> a cycle also) at a voltage of several 100Kvs and yet only
      >>>>> require a very small input power of few Kilowatts? The rate
      >>>>> at which you can discharge and charge a capacitor depends on
      >>>>> how much current
      > you can
      >>>>> supply and 200khz at half a million volts, 20pF is for
      >>>>> instance an inconceivably fast rate that should require an
      >>>>> extreme amount of power: charge= C*V.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> I am sure I am missing something here, maybe the voltage
      >>>>>>> on the
      >>>>> topload doesnt reach its maximum each cycle? And thus the
      >>>>> power needed is far less?
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Best Regards
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>,
      >
      >
      >>>> "Saber" <leviterande@<mailto:leviterande@>> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> most of all the power transferred in that test was due
      >>>>>>>> capacitive
      >>>>> coupling.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> btw, something is strange, my messages get posted
      >>>>>>>> something like
      >>>>> 3-4 days later!
      >>>>>>>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>,
      >
      >
      >>>> Chris Swinson <list@> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> One thing I have not seen much of in relation to this
      >>>>>>>>> is just
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> coupling
      >>>>>>>>> to a toroid in the near field and a toroid a few
      >>>>>>>>> meters away.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> Its not as
      >>>>>>>>> effective as turned coils, at least in my tests, but
      >>>>>>>>> based on
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> 100watt
      >>>>>>>>> received power, you can still get 25 watts this way.
      >>>>>>>>> Different
      >>>>> sized
      >>>>>>>>> toroids may give better or worse results, Though I
      >>>>>>>>> have not
      >>>>> tried it yet.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Bert - Didn't they also list the capacitive coupling
      >>>>>>>>> on those
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> tests ?
      >>>>>>>>> Would be interesting to see what powers were coupled
      >>>>>>>>> that way, they might have listed it, but It was some
      >>>>>>>>> years ago when I read the
      >>>>> info.
      >>>>>>>>> Was just a passing thought.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Chris
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> On 24/04/2013 20:42, Bert Hickman wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> It turns out that even at greater distances, most
      >>>>>>>>>> of the coupling between resonators (with capacitive
      >>>>>>>>>> top loads) is also
      >>>>> electrostatic.
      >>>>>>>>>> Tesla coil and HV researcher Greg Leyh performed a
      >>>>>>>>>> series of measurements using coupled Tesla Coils in
      >>>>>>>>>> 2007-2008. The results, "Efficient Wireless
      >>>>>>>>>> Transmission of Power Using Resonators
      >>>>> with Coupled
      >>>>>>>>>> Electric Fields", were presented and published at
      >>>>>>>>>> the North
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> American
      >>>>>>>>>> Power Symposium, Sept. 2008.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Greg found that identical resonators could couple
      >>>>>>>>>> significant
      >>>>> energy
      >>>>>>>>>> over short distances (via inductive and
      >>>>>>>>>> electrostatic
      >>>>> coupling - i.e.,
      >>>>>>>>>> in the reactive "near field"). He was also able to
      >>>>>>>>>> clearly
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> demonstrate
      >>>>>>>>>> that, at distances ranging from 5 - 12 meters, that
      >>>>>>>>>> power
      >>>>> transfer
      >>>>>>>>>> between resonators was dominated by electrostatic
      >>>>>>>>>> coupling.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> Using 3600
      >>>>>>>>>> watts of transmitting power, he was able to
      >>>>>>>>>> transfer over 800
      >>>>> watts to
      >>>>>>>>>> the receiving resonator located 5 meters away.
      >>>>>>>>>> During a test
      >>>>> using 6
      >>>>>>>>>> meters of resonator separation, he interposed a 6 x
      >>>>>>>>>> 6 meter
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> curtain of
      >>>>>>>>>> wires grounded on one end to partially block the
      >>>>>>>>>> E-field
      >>>>> between coils
      >>>>>>>>>> without affecting the magnetic field. The power
      >>>>>>>>>> transmitted
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> without the
      >>>>>>>>>> curtain in place was 520 watts. This then dropped
      >>>>>>>>>> to 28 watts
      >>>>> with the
      >>>>>>>>>> curtain in place.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> This also conforms to predicted near-field
      >>>>>>>>>> calculations
      >>>>> (using COMSOL
      >>>>>>>>>> simulations). In the near field (i.e., less than a
      >>>>>>>>>> wavelength - typically 600-6000 meters for typical
      >>>>>>>>>> Tesla coils), a Tesla
      >>>>> coil behaves
      >>>>>>>>>> as a high wave impedance source. In this region,
      >>>>>>>>>> most of the
      >>>>> reactive
      >>>>>>>>>> energy near the resonator is dominated by its
      >>>>>>>>>> E-field.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Bert
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> McGalliard, Frederick B wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>> Close to the top load the coupling is indeed
      >>>>>>>>>>> electrostatic.
      >>>>> As you
      >>>>>>>>>>> move away, at distances substantially longer than
      >>>>>>>>>>> the distance between the ground plane and the top
      >>>>>>>>>>> load, the coupling becomes mostly
      >>>>>>>>>>> electromagnetic. The electrostatic coupling
      >>>>>>>>>>> follows
      >>>>> an inverse
      >>>>>>>>>>> 4^th power I think (because it is a dipole, when
      >>>>>>>>>>> you are far
      >>>>> enough
      >>>>>>>>>>> away to electrically "see" the ground plane the
      >>>>>>>>>>> electric
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> force starts
      >>>>>>>>>>> to drop very rapidly), of the distance, while the
      >>>>>>>>>>> EM follows the inverse 2^nd power. Not at all
      >>>>>>>>>>> sure what it works like if
      >>>>> the second
      >>>>>>>>>>> coil is rotated 90 to the first.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> *From:*usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:%2Ausa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:%2Ausa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:%2Ausa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:%2Ausa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:%2Ausa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>> [mailto:usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>]
      >
      >
      >>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Saber *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2013
      >>>>>>>>>> 8:46 AM
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> *To:*
      >>>>>>>>>>> usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>> *Subject:* [usa-tesla] Re: Is there an
      >>>>>>>>>>> attraction force between two Tesla Coils?
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> From what I know tesla coils do transmit power
      >>>>>>>>>>>> pretty good
      >>>>> or at
      >>>>>>>>>>>> least
      >>>>>>>>>>> much better relatively to other magnetic
      >>>>>>>>>>> induction methods..
      >>>>> as you
      >>>>>>>>>>> can see from many youtube videos. The way I
      >>>>>>>>>>> understand how
      >>>>> power gets
      >>>>>>>>>>> transferred to an un-powered T.C is by
      >>>>>>>>>>> electrostatic induction, correct? So as the field
      >>>>>>>>>>> alternates and reaches the
      >>>>> unpowered but
      >>>>>>>>>>> identical tuned coil, the electrons on its top
      >>>>>>>>>>> load are
      >>>>> going to also
      >>>>>>>>>>> alternate in response and thus current is
      >>>>>>>>>>> induced, you know
      >>>>> just like
      >>>>>>>>>>> a capacitor, i.e. the top loads of the two T.Cs
      >>>>>>>>>>> represent
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> the two
      >>>>>>>>>>> electrodes of a capacitor and in an AC capacitor
      >>>>>>>>>>> there is always attraction and induced voltage.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> I am not talking about the magnitude of the
      >>>>>>>>>>> induced power (
      >>>>> which is
      >>>>>>>>>>> higher than other transformers methods anyway)
      >>>>>>>>>>> but Im
      >>>>> wondering if
      >>>>>>>>>>> an "attraction force" accompany the induced
      >>>>>>>>>>> power
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, Dewey Olsen
      >>>>>>>>>> <mclarke6816@
      >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mclarke6816@>> wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>>> My thinking is since the primary is not
      >>>>>>>>>>>> shorted, by the
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> spark gap
      >>>>>>>>>>>> or
      >>>>>>>>>>> because
      >>>>>>>>>>>> the tube is not turned on in the primary, the
      >>>>>>>>>>>> induced power
      >>>>> in the
      >>>>>>>>>>>> secondary the current would only be leakage
      >>>>>>>>>>>> current and be very small. Hence not much of an
      >>>>>>>>>>>> attraction.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> d
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> From: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Of Saber Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 8:04 AM
      >>>>>>>>>>>> To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>
      >>>
      > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >>>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [usa-tesla] Is there an attraction
      >>>>>>>>>>>> force between
      >>>>> two Tesla
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Coils?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, everyone Im wondering something about Tesla
      >>>>>>>>>>>> coils,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>> imagine 2
      >>>>>>>>>>> identical
      >>>>>>>>>>>> tesla coils couple of feet from each other. One
      >>>>>>>>>>>> is powered
      >>>>> and the
      >>>>>>>>>>>> other isn't.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, when the first one is powered there
      >>>>>>>>>>>> will be an
      >>>>>>>>>>> electrostatically
      >>>>>>>>>>>> induced power in the second one as you all
      >>>>>>>>>>>> know.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> My question is therefore:
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Is there an attraction electrostatic force
      >>>>>>>>>>>> between the two
      >>>>> Tesla
      >>>>>>>>>>> coils(the
      >>>>>>>>>>>> toploads)? there should be, right? if not?
      >>>>>>>>>>>> why?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
    • Saber
      Berts explanation was the closest thing to the truth I believe. How? I eliminated arcs by connecting a thin insulated wire to the dome going out around it
      Message 65 of 65 , Aug 22 10:52 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Berts explanation was the closest thing to the truth I believe. How? I eliminated arcs by connecting a thin insulated wire to the dome going out around it while the other end is connected to a bare conductor/insulated/various shapes very close to the dome itself, I tried also two parallel conductors sitting on the top of the dome insulated and not insulated with these setups arcing is now gone and thus the attractive force is gone or almost too so this at least confirmed Bert´s explanation regarding "arcing", still though there is so many variables to find out, the two sides of the situation are:

        1-Touching conductor:is there still a force? what "direction"? what magnitude, apparently if there is any force it is very small or non existent in the case of veritably touching conductors.

        2-Isolated conductor: grounded or ungrounded arcing is very wild and attraction only happens when there is attraction. I put the whole setup arrangement in high dielectric breakdown oil, turned up the BPS to the maximum 1600bps and brought together the two 0.1mm pvc covered conductors(one connected to the dome and the other is grounded). No oil-arcs occurred so the insulation is very good. Also no attraction force at all. Oil is the only thing that can hold against the arcs from my testing.

        I will do more tests. a very strong but low dense dielectric is highly preferred I guess or otherwise any small forces wont push the thick oil.

        --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com, "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...> wrote:
        >
        > Has to do with local vs long range. The grounded plate is grounded through a long wire or some such and this has an inductance and a resonance. At 286kHz the voltage on the grounded plate is likely following (in opposite charge) the top load pretty closely. There should be an attraction because of this charge, and when the plate is in contact with the top load, the same effect observed in the ancient gold leaf electroscope should tend to push it away. That this is not easily measured is a bit surprising to me. That the spark causes a much larger attraction is also a bit surprising. I would have imagined a tube of hot air with a lot of current rushing back and forth through it (the spark itself) especially under the pressure of the pinch effects, would produce a thrust away. That you do not see a spark coming from the plate in contact with the top load does not mean that there is not a lot of ion wind holding it in place. I wonder if there are some cute experiments we could design to separate effects? You might try placing your top load and plate in a vacuum to reduce or remove the atmosphere and it's very confusing effects. Hard to design something that is all that easy to set up though. Could we put the plate inside the vacuum and not the top load? Or perhaps just connect the top load to a flat disk inside the vacuum chamber?
        >
        > From: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com [mailto:usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saber
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:55 PM
        > To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [usa-tesla] Re: on the subject of attraction, no attraction detected?
        >
        >
        >
        > This is getting interesting
        >
        > Freddy, 286khz is the frequency used yeah compared to mhz its slow, Bert...hmm your latest post is neat. I got to read it multiple times to try and grasp it, you are not writing about any lagging problems here I assume? I tried both aluminum and insulated aluminum. Both start to attract only when there is an arc. And there was no corona on the other side of the foil. The naked aluminum sheet is perfectly absolutely stationary until a spark jumps where the aluminum gets attracted /sucked closer by the topload until space between dome and the foil ceases and arcing ceases. the isolated conductor is still attracted and is basically a part of the dome where it is like "glued" to the dome without any sparks . So the attraction phenomena seemingly exists without arcing at all as long as the conductors are touching?
        >
        > karl
        > --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com<mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@<mailto:bert.hickman@>> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Karl,
        > >
        > > Hmmm... got it. The following is an educated guess for an isolated
        > > conductor that is within sparking distance of the topload:
        > >
        > > An isolated conductive object has a small isotropic capacitance (or
        > > self-capacitance - typically pF level). If placed close enough to the
        > > topload, a streamer or small spark will jump to it. The spark (or
        > > streamers) transfer a batch of charge to the object that is sufficient
        > > to quickly raise the object to the topload's potential (at that
        > > instant). However, the topload's potential is continually changing
        > > during ring-up or ring-down on a TC. As the topload potential continues
        > > to rise toward the peak value during during a given sinusoid, sparking
        > > and charge transfer can repeat many times until the peak TC output
        > > voltage peak is reached and the object also retains a similar potential.
        > >
        > > As the topload's voltage heads back towards zero, a similar process
        > > occurs, but now charge is incrementally removed (spark by spark) from
        > > the nearby object. The force between the topload and object is
        > > predominantly attractive independent of whether the topload potential is
        > > climbing or declining - the output voltage merely needs to be rapidly
        > > changing so that there is significant potential difference between the
        > > object and topload.
        > >
        > > Bert
        > >
        > > Saber wrote:
        > > > Thank you Bert!
        > > >
        > > > I suspect though that we now are not on the same train track here :)!
        > > > In my last post I was referring to charging by contact instead of
        > > > charging by induction. If I put it simply , what I strangely have
        > > > seen and tested is that grounded or ungrounded conductors become
        > > > attracted to the topload ONLY when they both arc or touch.
        > > >
        > > > So as I approach the conductor towards the topload nothing
        > > > happens(even at very close distances if I insulate the conductor)
        > > > until there is arcing. Only When it arcs, the conductor suddenly gets
        > > > strongly attracted more and more and stays attracted and attached to
        > > > the dome as long there is arcing, when the foil finally is touching
        > > > the dome itself and the arcing stops, the alu foil and the dome
        > > > become one and stay "glued"/attached/attracted to each other!. If I
        > > > had a powerful enough TC I would be able to flip the topload upside
        > > > down with and the aluminum foil would be "glued to it" My question is
        > > > just how is this mechanism working, it is quite interesting. HF AC
        > > > seemingly attracts everything in "TOUCH", unless I am doing something
        > > > horribly wrong here? ha? :)
        > > >
        > > > Really appreciating you taking your time Thanks Karl
        > > >
        > > > --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com<mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> Hi Karl,
        > > >>
        > > >> I suspect that the reason why grounded conductive objects become
        > > >> strongly attracted is because the E-field is quite strong at
        > > >> streamer tips (i.e., the fine, hairlike, almost invisible
        > > >> electrical discharges at the ends of unterminated air discharges).
        > > >> The E-field is typically strong enough (>26 kV/cm for RF
        > > >> discharges) to ionize the air around the _grounded_object_,
        > > >> resulting in the development of new streamers that head inward
        > > >> towards, trying to reach outgoing streamers coming from the
        > > >> topload.
        > > >>
        > > >> Once the attracted object begins moving closer to the topload, the
        > > >> local E-field (and attractive force) becomes further enhanced,
        > > >> increasing the object's velocity until a complete electrical
        > > >> discharge bridges the gap. Since the TC output waveform is
        > > >> oscillatory, streamers are extinguished on each voltage zero
        > > >> crossing, and the E-field (and attractive force) is re-established
        > > >> on the subsequent rising portion of each RF half sinusoid. The
        > > >> attractive force virtually disappears once a spark reignites the
        > > >> gap since the low impedance spark rapidly discharges the topload,
        > > >> collapsing the driving voltage and E-field in the gap.
        > > >>
        > > >> With a small ungrounded conductive object, the attractive force
        > > >> will be much less since it is stems from electrostatic induction
        > > >> (the relatively small charge differential between the side facing
        > > >> the topload and the opposite side). The force on the inward-facing
        > > >> side is almost cancelled by opposing force from counterpart charges
        > > >> on the outward-facing side.
        > > >>
        > > >> Bert -- Bert Hickman Stoneridge Engineering
        > > >> http://www.capturedlightning.com
        > > >> ***********************************************************************
        > > >
        > > >>
        > > > World's source for "Captured Lightning" Lichtenberg Figure
        > > > sculptures,
        > > >> magnetically "shrunken" coins, and scarce/out of print technical
        > > >> books
        > > >> ***********************************************************************
        > > >
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > >> Saber wrote:
        > > >>> Bert, that strong dielectics might reduce the attraction force
        > > >>> for the reasons you mentioned make sens, the attraction of NON
        > > >>> touching conductors towards a TC dome has though yet to be seen
        > > >>> by me il have perhaps to build a more powerful coil:)
        > > >>>
        > > >>> However, Bert, if the speed of light lag in the AC reversals
        > > >>> doesnt play a roll at all, how come that any object touching the
        > > >>> TC dome by conduction, arcing or streaming will indeed get
        > > >>> violently attracted. So when a piece of metal become one part of
        > > >>> a TC dome by touching it doesnt stay, it doesnt repell, it is
        > > >>> actually attracted, how?
        > > >>>
        > > >>> Regards karl --- In usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com<mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > >>> <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>, Bert Hickman
        > > >>> <bert.hickman@> wrote:
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>> Hi Karl,
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>> The changing E-field (between the topload and its
        > > >>>> surroundings) propagates at the speed of light. Electrons in
        > > >>>> within any nearby bodies "feel" this field and respond by
        > > >>>> attempting to move towards or away from the topload depending
        > > >>>> on its instantaneous electrical polarity. In objects that are
        > > >>>> good conductors, electrons accumulate at either the side facing
        > > >>>> the topload or the opposite side. This process occurs almost at
        > > >>>> the speed of light, so there will be virtually no perceptible
        > > >>>> lag in the E-field (and the resulting attractive force) between
        > > >>>> the toroid and conductive object. However, the total force will
        > > >>>> be much greater if the object is grounded.
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>> In an object that is a good electrical insulator the situation
        > > >>>> is considerably more complex since electrons are not able to
        > > >>>> freely move between the atoms/molecules of the object. However,
        > > >>>> the electrons still respond to the E-field by altering their
        > > >>>> average equilibrium positions relative to nearby nuclei
        > > >>>> (electronic polarization). Some materials also have ionic polar
        > > >>>> molecules that may stretch or rotate to become better aligned
        > > >>>> to the applied E-field (ionic and dipolar polarization
        > > >>>> effects). The resulting combination of changes within the
        > > >>>> dielectric ("polarization") counteracts the applied E-field,
        > > >>>> reducing the average electrical field inside the dielectric and
        > > >>>> altering the shape of the electrical field surrounding it.
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>> However, unlike the almost-instantaneous response to external
        > > >>>> fields in metals, some polarization processes can take a
        > > >>>> relatively long time to reach a equilibrium in respond to a
        > > >>>> changed external E-field. The overall time-repose of the
        > > >>>> dielectric to the external E-field ("dielectric dispersion") is
        > > >>>> often a complex combination of electronic, ionic, and dipolar
        > > >>>> polarizations across several time-scales. For polar materials
        > > >>>> in particular, the time lag for dipolar polarization may be
        > > >>>> significant even at Tesla Coil frequencies. This might reduce
        > > >>>> the observed attractive effect in polar dielectric materials.
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>> Bert -- Bert Hickman Stoneridge Engineering
        > > >>>> http://www.capturedlightning.com
        > > >>>>
        > > > ***********************************************************************
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>> World's source for "Captured Lightning" Lichtenberg Figure
        > > >>> sculptures,
        > > >>>> magnetically "shrunken" coins, and scarce/out of print
        > > >>>> technical books
        > > >>>>
        > > > ***********************************************************************
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>
        > > >>>> Saber wrote:
        > > >>>>> Bert, I am wondering if what I have written here below could
        > > >>>>> be explanation why there is no attraction(assuming there is
        > > >>>>> truly no attraction net force at all in the first place, by
        > > >>>>> no means am I
        > > >>> right) :
        > > >>>>>
        > > >>>>> Possible Reason for no attraction There is a time lag
        > > >>>>> between when the top load gets positive and the nearby
        > > >>>>> objects get polarized. i.e. in HF AC source all nearby
        > > >>>>> objects will for sure alternately be polarized accordingly
        > > >>>>> but not
        > > >>> instantly but
        > > >>>>> actually lagging after the "mother signal charge of top
        > > >>>>> load" With this being said there would be no attraction force
        > > >>>>> since as you can see it would be almost totally cancelled
        > > >>>>> this way. This seems a logical explanation if it turns out
        > > >>>>> there is truly no attraction force. So Is this lag scenario
        > > >>>>> completely wrong and non existent? after all.. light speed is
        > > >>>>> not instant
        > > >>>>>
        > > >>>>> Thank you Kind Regards karl
        > > >>>>>
        > > >>>> <snip>
        > > >>>>
        > > >>>
        > >
        >
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