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RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects

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  • Paul
    ... Helium bonded eramic coating would be ideal for blades (disks) as adhesion is increased. However pitting or grooving will disrupt adhesion to the surface
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 17, 2008
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      -----Original Message-----
      >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...>
      >Sent: Apr 10, 2008 10:31 AM
      >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
      >

      >
      >One area I have no real grasp of. The spiral path of the exhaust gas is
      >clear enough. What is not clear is whether there are ways to increase
      >the aerodynamic interaction to get a higher efficiency, or at least make
      >the power to weight ratio better. I think a rippled path, sort of like a
      >vinyl record that has been melted and sagged along a number of radii.
      >This would change the direction of the gas flow, and interact with it in
      >a strongly aerodynamic way. It should really increase the coupling. And
      >if we built this from layers of ceramic, as example, we could shape the
      >interplate structures to have interesting aerodynamic characteristics,
      >somewhat like a turbines blade in it's effect, but with a spiral flow so
      >the dozens of blades in series are all on a single disk. It may not be a
      >pure TT, but it may be a very useful system.
      >
      >_


      Helium bonded eramic coating would be ideal for blades (disks) as adhesion is increased. However pitting or grooving will disrupt adhesion to the surface and prevent smooth flow over the surface.


      >From: davep@... [mailto:davep@...]
      >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:47 AM
      >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
      >
      >
      >
      >Its simple:
      >The Tesla design has been in the open literature, off patent,
      >for 90 odd years.
      >
      >The bladed turbines routinely achieve (multi rotor) the highest
      >efficiencies (at peak efficiency....) known, 80 odd%, of
      >any 'heat engine'. They are manufactured and developed by
      >multiple companies, with multimegabuck development budgets,
      >who would cheerfully adopt any workable improvement. One may
      >draw certain inferences from the fact that they have not adopted
      >disk rotors.
      >(Note: the '80 odd %' is for the turbine rotors alone, the
      >combustion Gas Turbine set, (jet engine) achieves 40 odd% because
      >there are two sets of rotors: compressor and power....)
      >
      >'friction losses' on the blading is low, just as in a/c wings, etc.
      >This is reflected in the high efficiencies _measured_. The high
      >efficiencies also follow from the multi rotor design: each rotor
      >handles 'gas' at slightly different speed/temperature/pressure,
      >with blades optimized for that portion.
      >
      >Running 'on a vacuum' (alone) would be hideously inefficient, as,
      >at best 14 psi is available. (Power plant steam runs 500psi and up.
      >and is _hot_: that heat energy is also recovered by the turbine
      >rotors.)
      >
      >This sort of stuff is PhD level work to get really good at...
      >(I know, near as i can tell, a bit. Great thick books cover
      >130 years of turbine, 230 odd of steam engine design.
      >
      >best
      >dwp
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Paul
      ... (Comment) The disks of a Tesla turbine are identical to a disk generator. A magnetic field that completely covered both (flat) sides of the disks would
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 17, 2008
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        -----Original Message-----
        >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...>
        >Sent: Apr 14, 2008 5:57 PM
        >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
        >
        >Steam, at even a modest pressure and temperature, is going likely to be
        >moving near sonic, to very supersonic. While I have some low temperature
        >applications in mind, where the velocity of the "steam" (probably CO2 in
        >my case) would be moving much slower, the thermodynamics of it requires
        >the pressure difference and temperature provided to the nozzle to
        >produce a very fast stream of gas to feed the turbine. This does limit
        >on bearings, but there is a very interesting way to get around this. You
        >might look up a recent article in the NASA Tech Briefs, describing a
        >motor/generator designed to produce a magnetic bearing effect due to
        >it's normal operation. The TT is a natural for a built in generator, and
        >or an air bearing. A bit more cunning than I can do in my head, but the
        >idea is simple enough at it's basic.
        >
        (Comment)
        The disks of a Tesla turbine are identical to a disk generator. A magnetic field that completely covered both (flat) sides of the disks would cause a charge to be present in the disks. It is possible to oppositely charge two disks on the same shaft so that a capacitor is formed. Tesla also noted that by applying a magnetic field that a copper disk could be brought into rapid rotation.

        c3=5170406>
        >
      • McGalliard, Frederick B
        Lacking the good sense to keep quiet on things I really know only a little about, I comment. The TT disks also look exactly like the disks of a Wimsherst
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 18, 2008
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          Lacking the good sense to keep quiet on things I really know only a little about, I comment.
          The TT disks also look exactly like the disks of a Wimsherst generator. A series of conductive plates, or perhaps, in a metal disk, a series of segments of imbedded ceramic, could form one plate of a variable capacitor, or more than one, that can be used to pump a DC charge, as the Wimsherst generator does, or to produce an AC power supply. If I have the idea right, a KV or so on the plates, and a larger external capacitor with a transformer between the two, and the variations in the capacitance as the disk rotates will pump the current back and forth, providing power without commutation rings or any contact at all with the rotating member. Should work pretty nicely. no idea if it will produce anywhere near the energy per pound, but for a very rapidly rotating disk, it may be much easier to seal than a shaft to an alternator. And it may be much lighter. I kind of like the simple elegance of it.


          From: Paul [mailto:teslat3@...]
          Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:18 PM
          To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects



          -----Original Message-----

          >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B"
          <frederick.b. mcgalliard@ BOEING.COM>
          >Sent:
          Apr 14, 2008 5:57 PM
          >To:
          href="mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com">usa-tesla@yahoogrou ps.com
          >Subject:
          RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
          >
          >Steam, at even
          a modest pressure and temperature, is going likely to be
          >moving near
          sonic, to very supersonic. While I have some low temperature
          >applications
          in mind, where the velocity of the "steam" (probably CO2 in
          >my case)
          would be moving much slower, the thermodynamics of it requires
          >the
          pressure difference and temperature provided to the nozzle to
          >produce a
          very fast stream of gas to feed the turbine. This does limit
          >on bearings,
          but there is a very interesting way to get around this. You
          >might look up
          a recent article in the NASA Tech Briefs, describing a
          >motor/generator
          designed to produce a magnetic bearing effect due to
          >it's normal
          operation. The TT is a natural for a built in generator, and
          >or an air
          bearing. A bit more cunning than I can do in my head, but the
          >idea is
          simple enough at it's basic.
          >
          (Comment)
          The disks of a Tesla turbine are identical to a disk generator. A magnetic field that completely covered both (flat) sides of the disks would cause a charge to be present in the disks. It is possible to oppositely charge two disks on the same shaft so that a capacitor is formed. Tesla also noted that by applying a magnetic field that a copper disk could be brought into rapid rotation.

          c3=5170406>
          >

        • McGalliard, Frederick B
          The pitting is the secret of the Golf ball, isn t it? Disrupt the laminar flow and reduce the drag effects. Of course if we coupled to the flow by aerodynamic
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 18, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            The pitting is the secret of the Golf ball, isn't it?
            Disrupt the laminar flow and reduce the drag effects.
            Of course if we coupled to the flow by aerodynamic effects, we might find reducing the drag to be salubrious. I think that one is one for the experimental physicist though. We need some idea of how a perfectly designed TT works to compare to a modified one.


            From: Paul [mailto:teslat3@...]
            Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:03 PM
            To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects



            -----Original Message-----

            >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B"
            <frederick.b. mcgalliard@ BOEING.COM>
            >Sent:
            Apr 10, 2008 10:31 AM
            >To:
            href="mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com">usa-tesla@yahoogrou ps.com
            >Subject:
            RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
            >

            >
            >One area I have no real grasp of. The spiral path of the exhaust gas
            is
            >clear enough. What is not clear is whether there are ways to
            increase
            >the aerodynamic interaction to get a higher efficiency, or at
            least make
            >the power to weight ratio better. I think a rippled path, sort
            of like a
            >vinyl record that has been melted and sagged along a number of
            radii.
            >This would change the direction of the gas flow, and interact with
            it in
            >a strongly aerodynamic way. It should really increase the coupling.
            And
            >if we built this from layers of ceramic, as example, we could shape
            the
            >interplate structures to have interesting aerodynamic
            characteristics,
            >somewhat like a turbines blade in it's effect, but with
            a spiral flow so
            >the dozens of blades in series are all on a single disk.
            It may not be a
            >pure TT, but it may be a very useful
            system.
            >
            >_

            Helium bonded eramic coating would be ideal for blades (disks) as adhesion is increased. However pitting or grooving will disrupt adhesion to the surface and prevent smooth flow over the surface.

            >From: davep@...
            [mailto:davep@...]
            >Sent:
            Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:47 AM
            >To:
            href="mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com">usa-tesla@yahoogrou ps.com
            >Subject:
            Re: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
            >
            >
            >
            >Its simple:
            >The Tesla design has
            been in the open literature, off patent,
            >for 90 odd
            years.
            >
            >The bladed turbines routinely achieve (multi rotor) the
            highest
            >efficiencies (at peak efficiency.. ..) known, 80 odd%,
            of
            >any 'heat engine'. They are manufactured and developed
            by
            >multiple companies, with multimegabuck development budgets,
            >who
            would cheerfully adopt any workable improvement. One may
            >draw certain
            inferences from the fact that they have not adopted
            >disk
            rotors.
            >(Note: the '80 odd %' is for the turbine rotors alone,
            the
            >combustion Gas Turbine set, (jet engine) achieves 40 odd%
            because
            >there are two sets of rotors: compressor and
            power....)
            >
            >'friction losses' on the blading is low, just as in
            a/c wings, etc.
            >This is reflected in the high efficiencies _measured_.
            The high
            >efficiencies also follow from the multi rotor design: each
            rotor
            >handles 'gas' at slightly different
            speed/temperature/ pressure,
            >with blades optimized for that
            portion.
            >
            >Running 'on a vacuum' (alone) would be hideously
            inefficient, as,
            >at best 14 psi is available. (Power plant steam runs
            500psi and up.
            >and is _hot_: that heat energy is also recovered by the
            turbine
            >rotors.)
            >
            >This sort of stuff is PhD level work to
            get really good at...
            >(I know, near as i can tell, a bit. Great thick
            books cover
            >130 years of turbine, 230 odd of steam engine
            design.
            >
            >best
            >dwp
            >
            >
            >
            >

          • Paul
            If you replaced the rotors of a turbine with large plastic or other non conductive disks, you could create a hugh static charge by pumping air between the
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 21, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              If you replaced the rotors of a turbine with large plastic or other non conductive disks, you could create a hugh static charge by pumping air between the rotors. Pump the air though a dry non conductive circular tube about 120 foot long, and you can really create a large static charge.


              -----Original Message-----
              >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...>
              >Sent: Apr 18, 2008 9:44 AM
              >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
              >
              >Lacking the good sense to keep quiet on things I really know only a
              >little about, I comment.
              >The TT disks also look exactly like the disks of a Wimsherst generator.
              >A series of conductive plates, or perhaps, in a metal disk, a series of
              >segments of imbedded ceramic, could form one plate of a variable
              >capacitor, or more than one, that can be used to pump a DC charge, as
              >the Wimsherst generator does, or to produce an AC power supply. If I
              >have the idea right, a KV or so on the plates, and a larger external
              >capacitor with a transformer between the two, and the variations in the
              >capacitance as the disk rotates will pump the current back and forth,
              >providing power without commutation rings or any contact at all with the
              >rotating member. Should work pretty nicely. no idea if it will produce
              >anywhere near the energy per pound, but for a very rapidly rotating
              >disk, it may be much easier to seal than a shaft to an alternator. And
              >it may be much lighter. I kind of like the simple elegance of it.
              >
              >________________________________
              >
              >From: Paul [mailto:teslat3@...]
              >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:18 PM
              >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >>From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...
              ><mailto:frederick.b.mcgalliard%40BOEING.COM> >
              >>Sent: Apr 14, 2008 5:57 PM
              >>To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
              >>Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
              >>
              >>Steam, at even a modest pressure and temperature, is going likely to be
              >>moving near sonic, to very supersonic. While I have some low
              >temperature
              >>applications in mind, where the velocity of the "steam" (probably CO2
              >in
              >>my case) would be moving much slower, the thermodynamics of it requires
              >>the pressure difference and temperature provided to the nozzle to
              >>produce a very fast stream of gas to feed the turbine. This does limit
              >>on bearings, but there is a very interesting way to get around this.
              >You
              >>might look up a recent article in the NASA Tech Briefs, describing a
              >>motor/generator designed to produce a magnetic bearing effect due to
              >>it's normal operation. The TT is a natural for a built in generator,
              >and
              >>or an air bearing. A bit more cunning than I can do in my head, but the
              >>idea is simple enough at it's basic.
              >>
              >(Comment)
              >The disks of a Tesla turbine are identical to a disk generator. A
              >magnetic field that completely covered both (flat) sides of the disks
              >would cause a charge to be present in the disks. It is possible to
              >oppositely charge two disks on the same shaft so that a capacitor is
              >formed. Tesla also noted that by applying a magnetic field that a copper
              >disk could be brought into rapid rotation.
              >
              >c3=5170406>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Paul
              It is my understanding that helium bonded ceramic surfaces are very sticky and this is because the surface is flawless, there is no disruption of flow. This
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 21, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                It is my understanding that helium bonded ceramic surfaces are very "sticky" and this is because the surface is flawless, there is no disruption of flow. This surface would be perfect for the disk and would also make the disk non conductive on the surface.

                -----Original Message-----
                >From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...>
                >Sent: Apr 18, 2008 9:48 AM
                >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
                >
                >The pitting is the secret of the Golf ball, isn't it?
                >Disrupt the laminar flow and reduce the drag effects.
                >Of course if we coupled to the flow by aerodynamic effects, we might
                >find reducing the drag to be salubrious. I think that one is one for the
                >experimental physicist though. We need some idea of how a perfectly
                >designed TT works to compare to a modified one.
                >
                >________________________________
                >
                >From: Paul [mailto:teslat3@...]
                >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:03 PM
                >To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >>From: "McGalliard, Frederick B" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...
                ><mailto:frederick.b.mcgalliard%40BOEING.COM> >
                >>Sent: Apr 10, 2008 10:31 AM
                >>To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
                >>Subject: RE: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
                >>
                >
                >>
                >>One area I have no real grasp of. The spiral path of the exhaust gas is
                >>clear enough. What is not clear is whether there are ways to increase
                >>the aerodynamic interaction to get a higher efficiency, or at least
                >make
                >>the power to weight ratio better. I think a rippled path, sort of like
                >a
                >>vinyl record that has been melted and sagged along a number of radii.
                >>This would change the direction of the gas flow, and interact with it
                >in
                >>a strongly aerodynamic way. It should really increase the coupling. And
                >>if we built this from layers of ceramic, as example, we could shape the
                >>interplate structures to have interesting aerodynamic characteristics,
                >>somewhat like a turbines blade in it's effect, but with a spiral flow
                >so
                >>the dozens of blades in series are all on a single disk. It may not be
                >a
                >>pure TT, but it may be a very useful system.
                >>
                >>_
                >
                >Helium bonded eramic coating would be ideal for blades (disks) as
                >adhesion is increased. However pitting or grooving will disrupt adhesion
                >to the surface and prevent smooth flow over the surface.
                >
                >>From: davep@... <mailto:davep%40quik.com> [mailto:davep@...
                ><mailto:davep%40quik.com> ]
                >>Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:47 AM
                >>To: usa-tesla@yahoogroups.com <mailto:usa-tesla%40yahoogroups.com>
                >>Subject: Re: turbines. RE: [usa-tesla] Interesting Projects
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>Its simple:
                >>The Tesla design has been in the open literature, off patent,
                >>for 90 odd years.
                >>
                >>The bladed turbines routinely achieve (multi rotor) the highest
                >>efficiencies (at peak efficiency....) known, 80 odd%, of
                >>any 'heat engine'. They are manufactured and developed by
                >>multiple companies, with multimegabuck development budgets,
                >>who would cheerfully adopt any workable improvement. One may
                >>draw certain inferences from the fact that they have not adopted
                >>disk rotors.
                >>(Note: the '80 odd %' is for the turbine rotors alone, the
                >>combustion Gas Turbine set, (jet engine) achieves 40 odd% because
                >>there are two sets of rotors: compressor and power....)
                >>
                >>'friction losses' on the blading is low, just as in a/c wings, etc.
                >>This is reflected in the high efficiencies _measured_. The high
                >>efficiencies also follow from the multi rotor design: each rotor
                >>handles 'gas' at slightly different speed/temperature/pressure,
                >>with blades optimized for that portion.
                >>
                >>Running 'on a vacuum' (alone) would be hideously inefficient, as,
                >>at best 14 psi is available. (Power plant steam runs 500psi and up.
                >>and is _hot_: that heat energy is also recovered by the turbine
                >>rotors.)
                >>
                >>This sort of stuff is PhD level work to get really good at...
                >>(I know, near as i can tell, a bit. Great thick books cover
                >>130 years of turbine, 230 odd of steam engine design.
                >>
                >>best
                >>dwp
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
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