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Tapered helical Tesla coil

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  • tesla_drummer
    Can someone explain the benifits of the tapered tesla coil? I can imagine it affects the magnetic field shape, but what else does it affect.
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Can someone explain the benifits of the tapered tesla coil? I can
      imagine it affects the magnetic field shape, but what else does it affect.
    • Bert Hickman
      ... There really isn t any performance benefit. The primary links mostly to the bottom portion of the secondary, so that from a primary-secondary standpoint,
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2005
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        tesla_drummer wrote:

        > Can someone explain the benifits of the tapered tesla coil? I can
        > imagine it affects the magnetic field shape, but what else does it affect.

        There really isn't any performance benefit. The primary "links" mostly
        to the bottom portion of the secondary, so that from a primary-secondary
        standpoint, there's little difference. However, the smaller diameter top
        portion will tend to have sparks breaking out directly from the upper
        portion of the secondary coil versus a simple cylindrical coil (not
        desirable). The resonance peak of a tapered secondary will also be
        significantly broader than the peak from a cylindrical coil. While this
        makes the coil a bit easier to tune, it broadens and considerably
        reduces the performance "peak" when the system is in tune.

        Overall, the practical effect of using a conical secondary will be to
        reduce performance versus a cylindrical coil of the same lower diameter.
        Performance here is defined as spark length versus input power. However,
        a tapered secondary coil DOES look "different" than a cylindrical coil,
        and some folks have made coils in this fashion simply for that reason or
        out of curiosity. Tesla himself experimented with conical secondaries
        while in New York, generating 16 foot discharges from his largest
        conical coil. Tesla abandoned conical coils in his later research in
        favor of cylindrical, helical, and pancake coils. A picture of his large
        conical coil can be seen in the upper right picture:
        http://www.teslasociety.com/page3.jpg

        A famous higher power conical coil was the Griffith Park Observatory
        coil in Los Angeles, California. A reproduction of this coil can be seen
        here:
        http://www.ttr.com/Fry-coil.htm

        Today, some small commercial coils use a conical secondary. However,
        these are low power coils with poor performance. An example of one of
        these (with output sparks that are perhaps 1" long) can be seen here:
        http://scientificsonline.com/Product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070301

        Bert
        --
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge magnetic fields,
        Lichtenberg Figures ("Captured Lightning" in acrylic), & Out-of-Print
        technical Books. Stoneridge Engineering - http://www.teslamania.com
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      • davep@quik.com
        It occurs to me i mau not have posted.... ad rem the discussion of batteries, books, etc. Found my copy of th Vinal Battery Engineering book. 20 some pages on
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 2, 2005
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          It occurs to me i mau not have posted....

          ad rem the discussion of batteries, books, etc.
          Found my copy of th Vinal Battery Engineering book.

          20 some pages on the Nickel/Iron syste, specifically,
          plus added discussion in the 300 odd pp on batteries
          generally.

          ca 1924

          best
          dwp
        • Jet Black
          ... On edison cells & not so wild goose chases..... http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/archives/0401/0401yr.asp Alvin Snaper s first patent was used to
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 3, 2005
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            At 05:38 PM 11/3/05, you wrote:
            >It occurs to me i mau not have posted....
            >
            >ad rem the discussion of batteries, books, etc.
            >Found my copy of th Vinal Battery Engineering book.
            >
            >20 some pages on the Nickel/Iron syste, specifically,
            >plus added discussion in the 300 odd pp on batteries
            >generally.
            >
            >ca 1924
            >
            > best
            > dwp

            On edison cells & not so wild goose chases.....

            http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/dfx/archives/0401/0401yr.asp

            "Alvin Snaper's first patent was used to make TANG and whose second was
            the IBM Selectric ball"

            Alvin seems to have kept "good company" from day 1 for licensing & selling
            his patents.....

            In the URL above it mentions him trying to re invent the edison cell , but
            along the way he "found"
            a new way to design the internal structure of a battery that dosen't
            involve "traditional" plate style
            mentality.
            In reading his 1998 patent "cover page" he almost spells out how most of
            the battery
            can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
            make them.
            "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or similar......very
            generous of him.

            Other interesting claims of "half the size & double the power & 90% less
            lead content
            of a traditional lead acid cell" "a built in ultrasonic transducer & a non
            conductive
            electrolyte" tend to make this battery fall into the too good to be true
            class , I saw
            no mention or comparison of battery life between the 2 styles so that
            _may_ be it's
            Achilles heel.....nonetheless his 1998 Patent makes for an interesting read....
            United States Patent 6,060,198

            <insert 7 years of the story that has been lost or misplaced & change location
            from Nevada to Houston>

            http://www.miplaw.com/CM/FirmNews/FirmNews9.asp

            "HOUSTON, Jan. 6, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Power Technology (OTC BB:PWTC.OB - News)
            announced today that the Company has settled all litigation related to the
            ownership of
            patents developed by the company. The Company has received assignments from
            Alvin Snaper of all the battery technology rights and patent rights that
            were in dispute.
            The Company paid Alvin Snaper $20,000.00 to settle the litigation. Alvin
            Snaper is bound
            by a ``share lockup agreement'' and for a period of one-year, he will not
            be permitted to sell
            or transfer ownership of any of his shares of Common Stock of the Company.
            Power Technology now has undisputed, complete ownership to the intellectual
            property
            and patent rights of its revolutionary battery technology."

            Alternate version of the announcement.
            http://www.pwtcbattery.com/rights.htm

            As we still use kangaroo's as our prime source of battery power here , I
            was wondering
            if anyone in the US has seen or heard anything about Alvin and his
            ex-battery at all.

            Was Power Technology Inc mentioned as a stock tip on this list late last
            century ???
            http://www.pwtcbattery.com/
            or was that another alternate fuel cell maker ???


            JB

            JB
          • davep@quik.com
            ... ... If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission: The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing priority for royalties,
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 4, 2005
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              ...
              > can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
              > make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or
              > similar......very generous of him.
              ...
              If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
              The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
              priority for royalties, etc...

              best
              dwp
            • Jet Black
              ... Alvins Battery Patent 6,060,198 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 4, 2005
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                At 09:46 PM 11/4/05, you wrote:
                >...
                >> can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
                >> make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or
                >> similar......very generous of him.
                >...
                > If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                > The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                > priority for royalties, etc...
                >
                > best
                > dwp

                Alvins Battery Patent
                6,060,198
                http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net
                ahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,060,198.WKU.&OS=PN/6
                ,060,198&RS=PN/6,060,198

                "A useful aluminum reticulated plate is sold by ERG Corporation. Its
                product No. RVA is suitable for battery use"
                "A polyurethane foam is ideal for battery applications, and pore and
                tendril sizes similar to those of the plate can successfully be used. They
                are sold by Crest Foam Industries, Inc. of Moonachie, N.J. as their Filter
                Crest reticulated polyurethane foam"

                Most patents are written out in a way to comply with the USPTO rules , else
                the patent won't be issued,
                but they will only contain the minimum amount of information required to
                get the patent issued & make things
                as difficult as possible for an individual to reproduce & use without
                paying royalties.
                Alvins Battery patent , in my reading, is very generous with the detail
                of information it supplies.
                Maybe he has a vested interest these companies , or maybe he is listing
                them because he knows they match
                & work together , but I don't believe he is obliged to reveal such detail.

                I grabbed another patent at random an Internet Phone made by Nokia ,
                possibly a bad choice
                due to the size of Nokia , but you should get the idea if you skim thru it.

                http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/net
                ahtml/search-bool.html&r=32&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=battery&OS=battery&RS
                =battery

                They make no mention of what sort of browser you might find useful or what
                brand of gateway router
                works best with the recommended browser , there's no mention of any other
                parts by brand or
                part number in the patent.

                Heck , if Tesla & other earlier Electrical pioneers wrote out their patents
                in the same manner as Alvin did
                , we'd only be using our futuristic flying cars to experience the joy of
                safe high speed open air flying
                & be using sensible & efficient teleporters to get from point A to point B
                by now........

                I'd also like to thank & congratulate Bruce A. Perreault
                for his efforts in trying to start & encourage people to "have a go"
                at what appears to be a genuine open source no secrets construction
                project up & going.

                If fringe science is ever going to _really_ upset the Global
                Status Quo of all things Scientific , the last place you want to
                go filing your information is the Patent Office , the US government
                & it's contractors can legally steal & suppress your Intellectual Property
                , use it for it's own purposes under some national secrecy act
                & not pay you a cent in royalties.
                http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68894,00.html?tw=wn_story_page_p
                rev2



                JB
              • James Moore
                Thought this was interesting news... spyware or worse built into new CD copy protection? Have you heard about this: check it when you get time... JB might be a
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  Thought this was interesting news... spyware or worse built into new CD copy protection?

                  Have you heard about this: check it when you get time... JB might be a good one to report
                  on what he thinks after reading the report at this link. I am not PC literate enough to judge adaquately.

                  http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html

                  JPM

                  At 01:46 AM 11/4/05 -0800, you wrote:
                  ...
                  > can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
                  > make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or
                  > similar......very generous of him.
                  ...
                    If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                     The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                     priority for royalties, etc...

                    best
                     dwp


                  "Each day is a new life. Seize it. Live it."
                               --David Guy Powers--


                • jim farrer
                  I found it interesting, Dave, that you mentioned not a word about protecting the rights of the patentee. Jim Farrer davep@quik.com wrote: ... ... If i recall,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 5, 2005
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                    I found it interesting, Dave, that you mentioned not a word about protecting the rights of the patentee.
                     
                    Jim Farrer

                    davep@... wrote:
                    ...
                    > can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
                    > make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or
                    > similar......very generous of him.
                    ...
                      If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                       The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                       priority for royalties, etc...

                      best
                       dwp


                  • davep@quik.com
                    ... A patent has been defined, with both accuracy, and cynicism, as: ... best dwp
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 5, 2005
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                      > I found it interesting, Dave, that you mentioned not a word about
                      > protecting the rights of the patentee.
                      I did:
                      >> while establishing priority for royalties, etc...

                      A patent has been defined, with both accuracy, and cynicism, as:
                      ...a license to sue and be sued....

                      >>> can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies
                      >>> that make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one"
                      >>> or similar......very generous of him.
                      > ...
                      > If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                      > The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                      > priority for royalties, etc...

                      best
                      dwp
                    • David T
                      Interesting discussion, guys! ... And as such, it is a tool for lawyers and corporations, not inventors. One of these fine fellows who has crossed my path is
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 5, 2005
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                        Interesting discussion, guys!

                        A patent has been defined, with both accuracy, and cynicism, as:
                            ...a license to sue and be sued....


                        And as such, it is a tool for lawyers and corporations, not inventors.

                        One of these fine fellows who has crossed my path is this person:


                        The  blurb shows him to be so full of himself that he wishes us to believe that he's actually contributed something to humanity. I know it's just advertising copy, but it makes me, as an inventor, sick to my stomach.

                        --DT

                        On Nov 5, 2005, at 5:15 PM, <davep@...> <davep@...> wrote:

                        > I found it interesting, Dave, that you mentioned not a word about
                        > protecting the rights of the patentee.
                          I did:
                        >> while establishing priority for royalties, etc...

                          A patent has been defined, with both accuracy, and cynicism, as:
                            ...a license to sue and be sued....

                        >>> can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies
                        >>> that make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one"
                        >>> or similar......very generous of him.
                        > ...
                        >   If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                        >    The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                        >    priority for royalties, etc...

                           best
                            dwp




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                      • David T
                        One final post on my part, then I ll let you two get back to the discussion: I find it disturbing that, far more often than not, the patentee (the entity to
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 5, 2005
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                          One final post on my part, then I'll let you two get back to the discussion:

                          I find it disturbing that, far more often than not, the patentee (the entity to whom the rights flow) is _not_ the inventor.

                          Science and technology advance by fits and starts, one breakthrough leading to another. The current model results in a stifling of innovation, IMHO, not because patentee's rights are legitimately protected (which they aren't), but because it's so easy to sue and be sued by anyone and everyone in this broken system.

                          It is instructive, I think, to consider Thomas Jefferson's ideas on intellectual property. I leave that exercise for my dear readers.

                          --DT

                          On Nov 5, 2005, at 3:33 PM, jim farrer wrote:

                          I found it interesting, Dave, that you mentioned not a word about protecting the rights of the patentee.
                           
                          Jim Farrer

                          davep@... wrote:
                          ...
                          > can be built using already manufactured parts & lists the companies that
                          > make them. "So that anyone familiar with the art could make one" or
                          > similar......very generous of him.
                          ...
                            If i recall, this is a rerquirement in a patent submission:
                             The intent of patent is to share knowledge, while establishing
                             priority for royalties, etc...

                            best
                             dwp




                          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





                        • jim farrer
                          VERY nice email, with a lot of research and work behind it, Bert. The thought came to me that each turn of the Tesla Secondary could be the same distance from
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 25, 2005
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                            VERY nice email, with a lot of research and work behind it, Bert.
                             
                            The thought came to me that each turn of the Tesla Secondary could be the same distance from the primary, if this secondary was bent into a partial torus, with the primary in the center.  The torus's inner diameter would be several incheds greater than the primarys largest turn.  I also see the winding difficulty, and the insulation difficulty.  Has this ever been tried?
                             
                            Jim Farrer

                            Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...> wrote:
                            tesla_drummer wrote:

                            > Can someone explain the benifits of the tapered tesla coil? I can
                            > imagine it affects the magnetic field shape, but what else does it affect.

                            There really isn't any performance benefit. The primary "links" mostly
                            to the bottom portion of the secondary, so that from a primary-secondary
                            standpoint, there's little difference. However, the smaller diameter top
                            portion will tend to have sparks breaking out directly from the upper
                            portion of the secondary coil versus a simple cylindrical coil (not
                            desirable). The resonance peak of a tapered secondary will also be
                            significantly broader than the peak from a cylindrical coil. While this
                            makes the coil a bit easier to tune, it broadens and considerably
                            reduces the performance "peak" when the system is in tune.

                            Overall, the practical effect of using a conical secondary will be to
                            reduce performance versus a cylindrical coil of the same lower diameter.
                            Performance here is defined as spark length versus input power. However,
                            a tapered secondary coil DOES look "different" than a cylindrical coil,
                            and some folks have made coils in this fashion simply for that reason or
                            out of curiosity. Tesla himself experimented with conical secondaries
                            while in New York, generating 16 foot discharges from his largest
                            conical coil. Tesla abandoned conical coils in his later research in
                            favor of cylindrical, helical, and pancake coils. A picture of his large
                            conical coil can be seen in the upper right picture:
                            http://www.teslasociety.com/page3.jpg

                            A famous higher power conical coil was the Griffith Park Observatory
                            coil in Los Angeles, California. A reproduction of this coil can be seen
                            here:
                            http://www.ttr.com/Fry-coil.htm

                            Today, some small commercial coils use a conical secondary. However,
                            these are low power coils with poor performance. An example of one of
                            these (with output sparks that are perhaps 1" long) can be seen here:
                            http://scientificsonline.com/Product.asp_Q_pn_E_3070301

                            Bert
                            --
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge magnetic fields,
                            Lichtenberg Figures ("Captured Lightning" in acrylic), & Out-of-Print
                            technical Books. Stoneridge Engineering - http://www.teslamania.com
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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