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Re: Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)

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  • David Knaack
    From: Jet Black ... higher. Last time I checked IQ was IQ = (Am/Ap) * 100 Where Am = Mental age Ap = Physical age So a 10 year old that
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 1, 1999
      From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
      >Correct me if I am wrong but IQ tests have some factoring in of your age to
      >get the final result Readings from another US list indicated that the age
      >factor was parabolic , so the older you get the harder it is to score
      higher.


      Last time I checked IQ was

      IQ = (Am/Ap) * 100

      Where
      Am = Mental age
      Ap = Physical age

      So a 10 year old that tests out with mental skills equavelent to that
      of the average 20 year old is rated at 200. Obviously, as one ages
      the difference becomes less important, after a certain point the difference
      of mental ability of nomal adults of different ages is no longer
      significant,
      making the 'Mental age' figure mostly useless except when below the
      physical age, such as in the case of mentally deficent subjects.

      Presumably, above a certain age IQ tests could be scored against
      other testers in the same age group, yeilding a percentile score.

      Everything I have read about IQ test says not to take them too seriously,
      the are meant only as a rough gauge, any individual can score in a wide
      range, depending on the test and conditions.

      DK
    • Dooley, Jim
      Plasmatic, With regard to IQ tests, yes they are different for adults versus children. IQ is short for Intelligence Quotient, a ratio of the measured
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 2, 1999
        Plasmatic,

        With regard to IQ tests, yes they are different for adults versus children.
        IQ is short for Intelligence Quotient, a ratio of the measured performance
        on a standardized test compared to the performance average of all persons
        taking the test. The average is arbitrarily set at 100. Those scoring
        above 100 are higher than average, those less are below.

        As to scores changing, I have not seen this in the tests which I have taken.
        All of my scores have been between 141 and 145. This has not much to do
        with my total knowledge base, but more to do with my ability to take tests
        and solve puzzles. Different people have various scores based on life
        experiences and areas of interest. My score for areas such as art and
        philosophy, should they be measured, would likely be pretty poor. I have
        almost no interest in these areas. My scores on technical areas are fairly
        high, due to my interest and experience in these areas. As you would
        expect, the more you practice in some area, the easier it becomes to be
        proficient in it.

        I would caution you though, do not put much emphasis on these test scores.
        The have little bearing on your ability to learn or think. They probably
        have more bearing on your self esteem than anything else. And, of course,
        if they are within the top 2% (I believe), you could possible get into
        MENSA.

        Jim Dooley
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Plasmatic [SMTP:plas@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 12:38 AM
        > To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
        > Subject: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)
        >
        > Hi all,
        > I have notived soething in the last while that, although trivial, is
        > very important to me because it affects one of the goals in my life.
        > About three years back my teacher found I was very smart, so she asked if
        > I wanted to participate in an IQ Test. I agreed and took the test. I was
        > recommended for Actel ( a local advanced learning school ), which meant I
        > had an IQ of atleast 120. To say the least, I was pleased, and this
        > sparked my interest in IQ and what it is. Now, three years later, I am
        > still looking at it but I have noticed something with the IQ tests I've
        > been taking lately. My scores are much worse. I do have a question
        > though. Are IQ tests for children the same as they are for adults? I
        > noticed that they were much different in the questions that were asked and
        > in the way they were set up. More putting together shapes than actual
        > pictures and numbers. Also wondering ways to improve IQ (goes along with
        > the Brain Stimulation thread). I realize that practise is the biggest
        > factor to getting the brain working, but what types of puzzles are good
        > for finding patterns? I find that with one of the main things I have to
        > do with my motor vehicles, troubleshooting that is, finding patterns
        > always seems to happen in hindsight. I don't realize them until I have
        > been told what goes together. Then I can see the pattern between them.
        > However, it would be much more beneficial to see a bunch of things and
        > tell the pattern between them as well as what comes next. These types I
        > find harder, much harder. Any help would be appreciated, as learning,
        > thinking, and problem solving are all things I like to improve. Rather
        > than muscles, I like to learn as much as I can, and fixing things is
        > something I love to use it all for. Thanks for any help!
        >
        > -Plasmatic
        > Plas@... <mailto:Plas@...>
      • Fred McGalliard
        Jet Black wrote: ... I thought that was asymptotic to the age axis. Given the same test, as you get older your performance would rapidly improve, at first,
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 2, 1999
          Jet Black wrote:
          ...
          > Correct me if I am wrong but IQ tests have some factoring in of your age to
          > get the final result Readings from another US list indicated that the age
          > factor was parabolic , so the older you get the harder it is to score higher.


          I thought that was asymptotic to the age axis. Given the same test, as
          you get older your performance would rapidly improve, at first, then
          gradually settle to a final value.
        • Jet Black
          ... higher. ... I have seen and taken a few IQ tests online and skimmed over an IQ paperback book , to my knowledge the IQ tests were never formally used in
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 2, 1999
            At 09:25 2/06/99 -0700, you wrote:
            >From: Fred McGalliard <frederick.b.mcgalliard@...>
            >
            >Jet Black wrote:
            >...
            >> Correct me if I am wrong but IQ tests have some factoring in of your age to
            >> get the final result Readings from another US list indicated that the age
            >> factor was parabolic , so the older you get the harder it is to score
            higher.
            >
            >
            >I thought that was asymptotic to the age axis. Given the same test, as
            >you get older your performance would rapidly improve, at first, then
            >gradually settle to a final value.

            I have seen and taken a few IQ tests online and skimmed over an IQ paperback
            book , to my knowledge the IQ tests were never formally used in the Australian
            education system , so I am by no means an expert , the general consesus was ,
            as mentioned in other emails , the numbers are not all that important ,
            (excluding MENSA).

            For me the best "test" would be for intelligence & ability.I scored well on
            this at school :)
            I was always in the top 10% of my school year for "test" scores, other kids
            knew how to consistantly score well at their tests , big deal, I was the first
            person a teacher would call to "retrieve" the keys they had locked in their car
            or help them figure out a "non curiculum" problem they had.
            I had intelligece & ability , which if well nurtured ,improves with age. (trust
            me:))

            JB
          • Plasmatic
            Thank you all for your comments. I m not really worried about my scores all that much now ;) Now all I m trying to find is good ways to exercise my brain,
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 2, 1999
              Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
              that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
              brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
              parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
              something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
              ever have lower test scores...

              -Plasmatic
              Plas@...
            • coexusa
              Dear David: Excellent points. I agree. I do NOT put too much credence in IQ tests. I will go with common sense every time over I.Q. Cheers, Dye Hawley ...
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 2, 1999
                Dear David:

                Excellent points. I agree. I do NOT put too much credence in IQ tests. I
                will go with "common sense" every time over I.Q.

                Cheers,

                Dye Hawley




                >From: "David Knaack" <dknaack@...>
                >
                >From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
                >>Correct me if I am wrong but IQ tests have some factoring in of your age
                to
                >>get the final result Readings from another US list indicated that the age
                >>factor was parabolic , so the older you get the harder it is to score
                >higher.
                >
                >
                >Last time I checked IQ was
                >
                >IQ = (Am/Ap) * 100
                >
                >Where
                > Am = Mental age
                > Ap = Physical age
                >
                >So a 10 year old that tests out with mental skills equavelent to that
                >of the average 20 year old is rated at 200. Obviously, as one ages
                >the difference becomes less important, after a certain point the difference
                >of mental ability of nomal adults of different ages is no longer
                >significant,
                >making the 'Mental age' figure mostly useless except when below the
                >physical age, such as in the case of mentally deficent subjects.
                >
                >Presumably, above a certain age IQ tests could be scored against
                >other testers in the same age group, yeilding a percentile score.
                >
                >Everything I have read about IQ test says not to take them too seriously,
                >the are meant only as a rough gauge, any individual can score in a wide
                >range, depending on the test and conditions.
                >
                >DK
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?
                >http://www.onelist.com
                >Come join one of nearly 160,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!
                >
              • Fred McGalliard
                Plasmatic wrote: ... I admit to being bored by anything that wasn t science. But it is very important to find at least some of the things you study more
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 3, 1999
                  Plasmatic wrote:
                  ...
                  > Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                  > brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                  > parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                  > something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :)

                  I admit to being bored by anything that wasn't science. But it is very
                  important to find at least some of the things you study more interesting
                  than your teacher finds his own subject. It makes the learning much more
                  fun.
                • Jim Farrer
                  Dear Plasmatic, Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 3, 1999
                    Dear Plasmatic,
                    Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                    the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no labs yet
                    avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved by a
                    friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never studied
                    at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated. After
                    he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                    caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                    advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                    have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!

                    Jim

                    Plasmatic wrote:

                    > From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                    >
                    > Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
                    > that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                    > brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                    > parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                    > something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
                    > ever have lower test scores...
                    >
                    > -Plasmatic
                    > Plas@...
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > How has ONElist changed your life?
                    > http://www.onelist.com
                    > Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                  • Jet Black
                    Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 3, 1999
                      <humor/sarcasm>

                      Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to
                      nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                      back.I'd slowly trudge down three flights of stairs , get some "fresh" air
                      outside when walking , then bound back up the stairs ready to rock & roll :>
                      I should have been left to sleep , I could have become a _real_ scientist.

                      <end humor/sarcasm>

                      A brisk walk did me the world of good , whenever I started dropping off in
                      class.
                      Do whatever you find works for you Plas , did any other list members suffer
                      from "nodding off in class"

                      To Jim , what (if any) "skills" did your classmate lack ? (imho) , no-one
                      , could be that smart _totally_ balanced & without any flaws ?

                      To all who don't know : Jim helped build & maintained one of the coolest
                      "computers" in the 1950's "The Sage" approximate size 100 x150 feet & four
                      stories high , a modern day Pyramid with air conditioning.
                      I'd also nominate him as one of the first _real_ computer "hackers" , ie
                      the type who could nut out any problem & fix it pronto !

                      I'm still in awe of his work & the SAGE :)

                      JB


                      PS Yes , I am trying to find something that all intelligent people have in
                      common , and it isn't easy.
                      The reason ? to stop people falling through the cracks of the educational
                      system.



                      >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                      >
                      >Dear Plasmatic,
                      >Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                      >the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no
                      labs yet
                      >avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved
                      >by a
                      >friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never
                      studied
                      >at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated.
                      >After
                      >he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                      >caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                      >advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                      >have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                      >
                      >Jim
                      >
                      >Plasmatic wrote:
                      >
                      >> From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                      >>
                      >> Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
                      >> that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                      >> brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                      >> parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                      >> something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
                      >> ever have lower test scores...
                      >>
                      >> -Plasmatic
                      >> Plas@...
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >> How has ONElist changed your life?
                      >> http://www.onelist.com
                      >> Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                      >
                      >
                      >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >Give back to your community through "Grow to Give."
                      >http://www.onelist.com
                      >Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details.
                    • Fred W. Bach
                      Jim, I see his secret! Clearly your friend mastered sleep-learning! I did the something similar in Grade 12 Chemistry, although I did read the book and only
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 3, 1999
                        Jim,

                        I see his secret! Clearly your friend mastered sleep-learning!

                        I did the something similar in Grade 12 Chemistry, although I
                        did read the book and only napped in class ;-). . Never did
                        any homework in that course, and aced all the in-term tests,
                        but on the provincial final where I lost, as I recall, 3 percent.
                        Oh well. Yeah, I was a bit smoked about that. Just missed the
                        Governor General's award. I think people who get all up-tight
                        about learning and keeping up their marks may simply get too
                        nervous and start to forget when the test is placed before them.

                        The secret to learning is to minimize fear and stress. I guess
                        your friend had that mastered too.

                        Regards,

                        .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are my own.


                        Jim Farrer wrote:

                        > From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                        >
                        > Dear Plasmatic,
                        > Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                        > the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no labs yet
                        > avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved by a
                        > friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never studied
                        > at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated. After
                        > he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                        > caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                        > advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                        > have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                        >
                        > Jim

                        > [snip]
                      • Dooley, Jim
                        Yes, I tended to be out of it in class. I feel I was done a terrible disservice by the educational system of the day. I was never challenged in school. I
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 4, 1999
                          Yes, I tended to be out of it in class. I feel I was done a terrible
                          disservice by the educational system of the day. I was never challenged in
                          school. I never paid attention. I usually knew most everything being
                          taught before they ever got around to teaching it. As a result, I never
                          developed any good study skills. I was at a terrible disadvantage when I
                          got to college, however, because of this. Seems like I learned stuff in
                          high school by "osmosis." There was no competition for grades there. Only
                          a few of us had the A's locked up all the time. But in college, it was a
                          different story. Everyone there was one of the smart ones from their high
                          schools. The competition for grades was very stiff, especially in
                          engineering. As a result, my grades suffered, along with my self esteem. I
                          knew I was smarter than my GPA said.

                          Eventually I realized that I tended to excel in areas of practical
                          application and less so in areas of pure abstract theory. (Perhaps that's
                          why I was bored most of the time in high school--there were no lab classes.)
                          At the end of my senior year, the Engineering Day competition was held and I
                          won the first prize--again, a practical application of some abstract theory.
                          (I had built an entire working AM and FM radio station using only 2 chips
                          and a tape recorder for a music source. The IEEE chapter was quite
                          impressed.) And those who excelled in the abstract theory area tended to be
                          miserable failures in the applications area.

                          So I guess what these experiences have taught me is that one must nurture
                          his skills in the area he is most talented. Do what you have to to get by
                          in other areas in the meantime, but by all means try to be the best there is
                          at what you are good at. Use whatever you can of the work of others if it
                          furthers your own work, giving them due credit. Strive to solve the
                          problems you are given. After all, that is what we engineering types
                          do--take the discoveries and abstract theories of others and bend them into
                          some device or process or other that solves some problem of mankind. And
                          most of us are not above using anything that works, however oddball it might
                          be.

                          Well, it's time to get off my soapbox now. I apologize for the
                          long-windedness. I hope I was able to add some insight to the results of
                          the school system boring the smarter kids to sleep in class. I sure wish
                          now that they had challenged me back then, instead of bored me. Although I
                          must admit I had a good time gazing out the window at the girls PE class
                          most of the time. {:o)

                          Jim Dooley

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Jet Black [SMTP:blackj@...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 10:34 PM
                          > To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                          > Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)
                          >
                          > From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
                          >
                          > <humor/sarcasm>
                          >
                          > Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to
                          > nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                          > back.I'd slowly trudge down three flights of stairs , get some "fresh" air
                          > outside when walking , then bound back up the stairs ready to rock & roll
                          > :>
                          > I should have been left to sleep , I could have become a _real_
                          > scientist.
                          >
                          > <end humor/sarcasm>
                          >
                          > A brisk walk did me the world of good , whenever I started dropping off in
                          > class.
                          > Do whatever you find works for you Plas , did any other list members
                          > suffer
                          > from "nodding off in class"
                          >
                          > To Jim , what (if any) "skills" did your classmate lack ? (imho) , no-one
                          > , could be that smart _totally_ balanced & without any flaws ?
                          >
                          > To all who don't know : Jim helped build & maintained one of the coolest
                          > "computers" in the 1950's "The Sage" approximate size 100 x150 feet &
                          > four
                          > stories high , a modern day Pyramid with air conditioning.
                          > I'd also nominate him as one of the first _real_ computer "hackers" , ie
                          > the type who could nut out any problem & fix it pronto !
                          >
                          > I'm still in awe of his work & the SAGE :)
                          >
                          > JB
                          >
                          >
                          > PS Yes , I am trying to find something that all intelligent people have in
                          > common , and it isn't easy.
                          > The reason ? to stop people falling through the cracks of the educational
                          > system.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                          > >
                          > >Dear Plasmatic,
                          > >Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg.
                          > for
                          > >the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no
                          > labs yet
                          > >avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was
                          > achieved
                          > >by a
                          > >friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never
                          > studied
                          > >at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated.
                          >
                          > >After
                          > >he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the
                          > instructors
                          > >caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the
                          > most
                          > >advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If
                          > you
                          > >have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                          > >
                          > >Jim
                          > >
                          > >Plasmatic wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                          > >>
                          > >> Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my
                          > scores all
                          > >> that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise
                          > my
                          > >> brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the
                          > hard
                          > >> parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually
                          > learn
                          > >> something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason
                          > I
                          > >> ever have lower test scores...
                          > >>
                          > >> -Plasmatic
                          > >> Plas@...
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >> How has ONElist changed your life?
                          > >> http://www.onelist.com
                          > >> Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > >Give back to your community through "Grow to Give."
                          > >http://www.onelist.com
                          > >Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details.
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > How has ONElist changed your life?
                          > Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                        • Jim Farrer
                          Private and VERY PERSONAL memo to Jet Black: Dear Jet, This letter nearly fulfills our agreement, so I m sending you the entire $10,000 we agreed on last week.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 4, 1999
                            Private and VERY PERSONAL memo to Jet Black:

                            Dear Jet,
                            This letter nearly fulfills our agreement, so I'm sending you the entire $10,000 we
                            agreed on last week.
                            Jim

                            <end smart-ass>
                            P.S. I just don't know any other way to handle the nice words you put on me!
                            PPS (or is it PSS?) This man had 4 kids, is still married to his first wife. I
                            don't believe he smoked or drank. Consistently outperformed and out-paced me
                            mentally. Had a son taken from him at about age 16 or 18 by a traffic accident.
                            Responded by turning even more Christian, and talking about the Bible (to friends
                            like me), *without* being boorish.

                            PPPSS (Whatever). The manager of the Diagnostic Programming Dept. (about 30
                            people) for the nationwide SAGE system could never understand how us non-degreed
                            tecchies could fix his really dumb programs. Seeing as how he prohibited us from
                            having the source code or even an assembler at the SAGE sites. Hell, binary ain't
                            no hangup at all!

                            Jim Farrer

                            Jet Black wrote:

                            > From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
                            >
                            > <humor/sarcasm>
                            >
                            > Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to
                            > nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                            > back.I'd slowly trudge down three flights of stairs , get some "fresh" air
                            > outside when walking , then bound back up the stairs ready to rock & roll :>
                            > I should have been left to sleep , I could have become a _real_ scientist.
                            >
                            > <end humor/sarcasm>
                            >
                            > A brisk walk did me the world of good , whenever I started dropping off in
                            > class.
                            > Do whatever you find works for you Plas , did any other list members suffer
                            > from "nodding off in class"
                            >
                            > To Jim , what (if any) "skills" did your classmate lack ? (imho) , no-one
                            > , could be that smart _totally_ balanced & without any flaws ?
                            >
                            > To all who don't know : Jim helped build & maintained one of the coolest
                            > "computers" in the 1950's "The Sage" approximate size 100 x150 feet & four
                            > stories high , a modern day Pyramid with air conditioning.
                            > I'd also nominate him as one of the first _real_ computer "hackers" , ie
                            > the type who could nut out any problem & fix it pronto !
                            >
                            > I'm still in awe of his work & the SAGE :)
                            >
                            > JB
                            >
                            > PS Yes , I am trying to find something that all intelligent people have in
                            > common , and it isn't easy.
                            > The reason ? to stop people falling through the cracks of the educational
                            > system.
                            >
                            > >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                            > >
                            > >Dear Plasmatic,
                            > >Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                            > >the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no
                            > labs yet
                            > >avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved
                            > >by a
                            > >friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never
                            > studied
                            > >at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated.
                            > >After
                            > >he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                            > >caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                            > >advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                            > >have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                            > >
                            > >Jim
                            > >
                            > >Plasmatic wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                            > >>
                            > >> Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
                            > >> that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                            > >> brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                            > >> parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                            > >> something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
                            > >> ever have lower test scores...
                            > >>
                            > >> -Plasmatic
                            > >> Plas@...
                            > >>
                            > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > >> How has ONElist changed your life?
                            > >> http://www.onelist.com
                            > >> Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > >Give back to your community through "Grow to Give."
                            > >http://www.onelist.com
                            > >Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details.
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          • coexusa
                            Dear Jim: Interesting comments. I too, became bored in High School and just cruised through like you. My son who is 5 1/2 years old is already experiencing
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 5, 1999
                              Dear Jim:

                              Interesting comments. I too, became bored in High School and just "cruised" through like you. My son who is 5 1/2 years old is already experiencing this in kindergarten at a Montessori School. His teachers say that he is way ahead of the rest of the class and that he should go to a private school or be placed in a "Gifted Child" (I detest that phrase!!!) program at the public schools. If not, then he too will become bored of the subject matter because he already knows it. Fortunately, today there are more options for extremely bright children. In my days of primary and secondary school, (1957-1968) there were no programs like they have today. Even critics of the educational system must admit that this is an improvement for the bright kids. Problem is, they are NOT doing a good job on the other kids. I have my ideas on this...but will stop for now.

                              Cheers,

                              Dye Hawley



                              Yes, I tended to be out of it in class. I feel I was done a terrible disservice by the educational system of the day. I was never challenged in school. I never paid attention. I usually knew most everything being taught before they ever got around to teaching it. As a result, I never developed any good study skills. I was at a terrible disadvantage when I got to college, however, because of this. Seems like I learned stuff in high school by "osmosis." There was no competition for grades there. Only a few of us had the A's locked up all the time. But in college, it was a different story. Everyone there was one of the smart ones from their high schools. The competition for grades was very stiff, especially in engineering. As a result, my grades suffered, along with my self esteem. I knew I was smarter than my GPA said.

                              Eventually I realized that I tended to excel in areas of practical application and less so in areas of pure abstract theory. (Perhaps that's why I was bored most of the time in high school--there were no lab classes.) At the end of my senior year, the Engineering Day competition was held and I won the first prize--again, a practical application of some abstract theory. (I had built an entire working AM and FM radio station using only 2 chips and a tape recorder for a music source. The IEEE chapter was quite impressed.) And those who excelled in the abstract theory area tended to be miserable failures in the applications area.

                              So I guess what these experiences have taught me is that one must nurture his skills in the area he is most talented. Do what you have to to get by in other areas in the meantime, but by all means try to be the best there is at what you are good at. Use whatever you can of the work of others if it furthers your own work, giving them due credit. Strive to solve the problems you are given. After all, that is what we engineering types do--take the discoveries and abstract theories of others and bend them into some device or process or other that solves some problem of mankind. And most of us are not above using anything that works, however oddball it might be.

                              Well, it's time to get off my soapbox now. I apologize for the long-windedness. I hope I was able to add some insight to the results of the school system boring the smarter kids to sleep in class. I sure wish now that they had challenged me back then, instead of bored me. Although I must admit I had a good time gazing out the window at the girls PE class most of the time. {:o)

                              Jim Dooley

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Jet Black [SMTP:blackj@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 10:34 PM
                              To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                              Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)

                              From: Jet Black <blackj@...>

                              <humor/sarcasm>

                              Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to
                              nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                              back.I'd slowly trudge down three flights of stairs , get some "fresh" air
                              outside when walking , then bound back up the stairs ready to rock & roll :>
                              I should have been left to sleep , I could have become a _real_ scientist.

                              <end humor/sarcasm>

                              A brisk walk did me the world of good , whenever I started dropping off in
                              class.
                              Do whatever you find works for you Plas , did any other list members suffer
                              from "nodding off in class"

                              To Jim , what (if any) "skills" did your classmate lack ? (imho) , no-one
                              , could be that smart _totally_ balanced & without any flaws ?

                              To all who don't know : Jim helped build & maintained one of the coolest
                              "computers" in the 1950's "The Sage" approximate size 100 x150 feet & four
                              stories high , a modern day Pyramid with air conditioning.
                              I'd also nominate him as one of the first _real_ computer "hackers" , ie
                              the type who could nut out any problem & fix it pronto !

                              I'm still in awe of his work & the SAGE :)

                              JB



                              PS Yes , I am trying to find something that all intelligent people have in
                              common , and it isn't easy.
                              The reason ? to stop people falling through the cracks of the educational
                              system.




                              >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                              >
                              >Dear Plasmatic,
                              >Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                              >the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no
                              labs yet
                              >avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved
                              >by a
                              >friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never
                              studied
                              >at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated.
                              >After
                              >he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                              >caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                              >advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                              >have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                              >
                              >Jim
                              >
                              >Plasmatic wrote:
                              >
                              >> From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                              >>
                              >> Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
                              >> that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                              >> brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                              >> parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                              >> something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
                              >> ever have lower test scores...
                              >>
                              >> -Plasmatic
                              >> Plas@...
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >> How has ONElist changed your life?
                              >> http://www.onelist.com
                              >> Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                              >
                              >
                              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >Give back to your community through "Grow to Give."
                              >http://www.onelist.com
                              >Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details.



                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                            • Plasmatic
                              I, on the other hand, have the opposite problem. In my small town, there are LARGE programs and modified courses, but the brighter students have nothing. I
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 8, 1999
                                I, on the other hand, have the opposite problem. In my small town, there are LARGE programs and modified courses, but the brighter students have nothing. I have been told many times by teachers to stop teaching the kids and let them teach, stop correcting the teacher, and slow down and let the other kids catch up. One teacher was nice enough to actually suggest the IQ Test and all. Other than that, all the other teachers disliked the smarter kids, and liked those who had more difficulty. I would have gone to the Accelerated Learning Program, but it meant having to move to the city.

                                -Plasmatic
                                Plas@...
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: coexusa <coexusa@...>
                                To: usa-tesla@onelist.com <usa-tesla@onelist.com>
                                Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 11:13 AM
                                Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)


                                Dear Jim:

                                Interesting comments. I too, became bored in High School and just "cruised" through like you. My son who is 5 1/2 years old is already experiencing this in kindergarten at a Montessori School. His teachers say that he is way ahead of the rest of the class and that he should go to a private school or be placed in a "Gifted Child" (I detest that phrase!!!) program at the public schools. If not, then he too will become bored of the subject matter because he already knows it. Fortunately, today there are more options for extremely bright children. In my days of primary and secondary school, (1957-1968) there were no programs like they have today. Even critics of the educational system must admit that this is an improvement for the bright kids. Problem is, they are NOT doing a good job on the other kids. I have my ideas on this...but will stop for now.

                                Cheers,

                                Dye Hawley



                                Yes, I tended to be out of it in class. I feel I was done a terrible disservice by the educational system of the day. I was never challenged in school. I never paid attention. I usually knew most everything being taught before they ever got around to teaching it. As a result, I never developed any good study skills. I was at a terrible disadvantage when I got to college, however, because of this. Seems like I learned stuff in high school by "osmosis." There was no competition for grades there. Only a few of us had the A's locked up all the time. But in college, it was a different story. Everyone there was one of the smart ones from their high schools. The competition for grades was very stiff, especially in engineering. As a result, my grades suffered, along with my self esteem. I knew I was smarter than my GPA said.

                                Eventually I realized that I tended to excel in areas of practical application and less so in areas of pure abstract theory. (Perhaps that's why I was bored most of the time in high school--there were no lab classes.) At the end of my senior year, the Engineering Day competition was held and I won the first prize--again, a practical application of some abstract theory. (I had built an entire working AM and FM radio station using only 2 chips and a tape recorder for a music source. The IEEE chapter was quite impressed.) And those who excelled in the abstract theory area tended to be miserable failures in the applications area.

                                So I guess what these experiences have taught me is that one must nurture his skills in the area he is most talented. Do what you have to to get by in other areas in the meantime, but by all means try to be the best there is at what you are good at. Use whatever you can of the work of others if it furthers your own work, giving them due credit. Strive to solve the problems you are given. After all, that is what we engineering types do--take the discoveries and abstract theories of others and bend them into some device or process or other that solves some problem of mankind. And most of us are not above using anything that works, however oddball it might be.

                                Well, it's time to get off my soapbox now. I apologize for the long-windedness. I hope I was able to add some insight to the results of the school system boring the smarter kids to sleep in class. I sure wish now that they had challenged me back then, instead of bored me. Although I must admit I had a good time gazing out the window at the girls PE class most of the time. {:o)

                                Jim Dooley

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Jet Black [SMTP:blackj@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 10:34 PM
                                To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                                Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)

                                From: Jet Black <blackj@...>

                                <humor/sarcasm>

                                Dammit ! Whenever my electrical tech teacher , noticed me starting to
                                nod off , would tell me to go for a walk around the building and come
                                back.I'd slowly trudge down three flights of stairs , get some "fresh" air
                                outside when walking , then bound back up the stairs ready to rock & roll :>
                                I should have been left to sleep , I could have become a _real_ scientist.

                                <end humor/sarcasm>

                                A brisk walk did me the world of good , whenever I started dropping off in
                                class.
                                Do whatever you find works for you Plas , did any other list members suffer
                                from "nodding off in class"

                                To Jim , what (if any) "skills" did your classmate lack ? (imho) , no-one
                                , could be that smart _totally_ balanced & without any flaws ?

                                To all who don't know : Jim helped build & maintained one of the coolest
                                "computers" in the 1950's "The Sage" approximate size 100 x150 feet & four
                                stories high , a modern day Pyramid with air conditioning.
                                I'd also nominate him as one of the first _real_ computer "hackers" , ie
                                the type who could nut out any problem & fix it pronto !

                                I'm still in awe of his work & the SAGE :)

                                JB



                                PS Yes , I am trying to find something that all intelligent people have in
                                common , and it isn't easy.
                                The reason ? to stop people falling through the cracks of the educational
                                system.




                                >From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
                                >
                                >Dear Plasmatic,
                                >Maybe you have a gift, albeit undeveloped as yet. I only got a 96% avg. for
                                >the entire SAGE Field Engineering class (9 months long; all theory, no
                                labs yet
                                >avail). I was only 2nd in the class. The highest (98%) grade was achieved
                                >by a
                                >friend who went sound asleep in class every time he sat down. He never
                                studied
                                >at home, sat all by himself in the front row, and could not have cheated.
                                >After
                                >he showed his consistently high grades for the first 3 months, the instructors
                                >caught on and just left him alone. Forty years later, he is one of the most
                                >advanced and most admired people around. Could you have this talent? If you
                                >have even the tiniest bit hone, brother, hone, hone, hone!
                                >
                                >Jim
                                >
                                >Plasmatic wrote:
                                >
                                >> From: "Plasmatic" <plas@...>
                                >>
                                >> Thank you all for your comments. I'm not really worried about my scores all
                                >> that much now ;) Now all I'm trying to find is good ways to exercise my
                                >> brain, because, honestly, school is doing a horrible job :) One of the hard
                                >> parts to being smart is staying awake. I find everytime we actually learn
                                >> something I DIDN'T know, I'm damn near asleep :) Truly the only reason I
                                >> ever have lower test scores...
                                >>
                                >> -Plasmatic
                                >> Plas@...
                                >>
                                >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >> How has ONElist changed your life?
                                >> http://www.onelist.com
                                >> Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                                >
                                >
                                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >Give back to your community through "Grow to Give."
                                >http://www.onelist.com
                                >Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details.



                                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                How has ONElist changed your life?
                                Share your story with us at http://www.onelist.com
                              • Fred W. Bach
                                Plas, I m glad you can talk to us. Yes, it is unfortunate, but today s educational systems are known for punishing excellence and enthusiasm, and rewarding
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 8, 1999
                                  Plas,

                                  I'm glad you can talk to us. Yes, it is unfortunate, but today's
                                  educational systems are known for punishing excellence and
                                  enthusiasm, and rewarding mediocrity. I also was one who
                                  corrected teachers - I even found a bold mistake in the grade 11
                                  physics book that they had been teaching for 20 years. And I
                                  got kicked out of RF power amplifiers class for correcting the
                                  prof. Later he apologized to me - I was right after all, and he
                                  got the right answer because he made the same mistake twice
                                  and it cancelled out just by luck. Back when Fortran was
                                  young and in my first Fortran class, I realized the teacher
                                  did NOT know what he was doing and I told him so. He
                                  was very inexperienced at teaching that subject, by his own
                                  admission. So I made a deal with him. I told him I was
                                  going to go off and learn this stuff by myself and then come
                                  back and tell him what he was doing wrong. I did learn it,
                                  I did get 100% on every test, and I did get the bonus marks
                                  too. Yeah, I also told him what he was doing wrong, and I
                                  held informal classes for the other kids on the side to help
                                  them along with their Fortran. I taught my girlfriend enough
                                  Fortran in 45 minutes which would have given her the skills
                                  to at least pass the final exam. I sense that you have the
                                  same abilities to learn and teach.

                                  So even though I went to high school and college in a big
                                  city, I think I can say 'been there, done that.' I agree that
                                  your problem may be somewhat worse than mine, because
                                  you are in a small town, and I could pick any high school
                                  I wanted. But it's your brain - and YOU are ultimately going
                                  to be responsible for your own learning. See if you can
                                  contact your state organization for Gifted Children. You
                                  never know, there may be some money for you to attend
                                  the school of your choice.

                                  Another suggestion is go study the life of Gauss, the famous
                                  mathematician.. I tell my kids that they really don't need
                                  the teacher if their book skills are good enough. Gauss
                                  didn't.

                                  From looking back, one piece of advice I could offer you
                                  is try your best NOT to be a disturber in class, but make
                                  sure you don't let the teachers teach anything wrong. Try
                                  to do your talking to the teachers outside of class. And try
                                  to make sure your principals and counselors are on your
                                  side. Surely somewhere in that school there would be
                                  some teacher who would appreciate your abilities and
                                  work with you outside of formal classes to give you more
                                  and better assignments and things to study and learn. Don't
                                  worry about what people think of you - as long as you keep
                                  your nose clean and out of the crime and drug scene, and
                                  not associating with people who are in those scenes, you
                                  should be all right. Try to seek out people of your own level,
                                  and don't let the crowd pull you down, because they surely
                                  will try. Many teenage groups in school can't stand it when
                                  some people excel. But never retaliate against them. Just
                                  keep your nose clean, and do go out of your way to do a
                                  kindness to any deserving person if the opportunity presents
                                  itself. Even though you may have a superior mind, do not
                                  project yourself that way. And stay away from smoking,
                                  smokers and places where smoke is, if you at all can.
                                  Don't ever pick up the habit because it's filthy and expensive.
                                  I never did, but I've seen lots of people who did and who spent
                                  a fortune on cig's. And be aware that virtually every kid who
                                  gets a car to drive, whether he paid for it himself or it was
                                  given to him, sees his marks go straight downhill. It's
                                  possible, but statistically unlikely, that you already have and/or
                                  drive a car, and your marks are still good. Even so, cars,
                                  teenagers and schoolwork generally don't mix well.
                                  Without the car your marks might even be better, who
                                  knows? Having an after school or Saturday job is OK,
                                  depending on the type of job and if it takes away from your
                                  homework time or not. Since you probably do a lot of sitting
                                  around studying in and out of school, a job which offers some
                                  physical activity would be a good idea. Speaking of girlfriends,
                                  they can be either a boon or a bane to your marks - it all
                                  depends. So keep a look out on your progress.

                                  Avoid alcohol completely until you are of the legal age, but
                                  don't let that birthday be your last! Caution is the byword.
                                  Never drink and drive.

                                  All the best. Keep us posted. Thanks.

                                  .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are my own.


                                  Plasmatic wrote:

                                  > I, on the other hand, have the opposite problem. In my small town,
                                  > there are LARGE programs and modified courses, but the brighter
                                  > students have nothing. I have been told many times by teachers to
                                  > stop teaching the kids and let them teach, stop correcting the
                                  > teacher, and slow down and let the other kids catch up. One teacher
                                  > was nice enough to actually suggest the IQ Test and all. Other than
                                  > that, all the other teachers disliked the smarter kids, and liked
                                  > those who had more difficulty. I would have gone to the Accelerated
                                  > Learning Program, but it meant having to move to the
                                  > city. -PlasmaticPlas@...
                                • Michael Riversong
                                  Actually, gifted programs in most public schools are a hoax. There are a few in some places, but not many are up and running. Added to that, is the fact that
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 14, 1999
                                    Actually, gifted programs in most public schools are a hoax. There are a
                                    few in some places, but not many are up and running. Added to that, is the
                                    fact that many of these programs (including one i performed for in Bay City
                                    Texas) are simply political systems, where the children of civic leaders are
                                    groomed to be automatically placed in positions of power later on. That
                                    particular gifted class was sterile and sad.

                                    What is working better these days, is homeschooling, and, particularly the
                                    Unschooling branch. I am now in correspondence with a few people who left
                                    school altogether and managed to become very able in various areas.

                                    My experience in teaching (mostly music lessons, on a very small scale)
                                    shows that the most valuable skill any student can learn, is how to use a
                                    dictionary. Most people drop off to sleep when confronted with a word they
                                    don't understand. The fact that a few able scientists and engineers on this
                                    list used to do that in class a lot, and went on to become excellent in
                                    their fields, demonstrates that the terminology used in those classrooms was
                                    generally irrelevant to the practical applications they have mastered.

                                    At 10:16 AM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
                                    >Dear Jim:
                                    >
                                    >Interesting comments. I too, became bored in High School and just
                                    "cruised" through like you. My son who is 5 1/2 years old is already
                                    experiencing this in kindergarten at a Montessori School. His teachers say
                                    that he is way ahead of the rest of the class and that he should go to a
                                    private school or be placed in a "Gifted Child" (I detest that phrase!!!)
                                    program at the public schools. If not, then he too will become bored of the
                                    subject matter because he already knows it. Fortunately, today there are
                                    more options for extremely bright children. In my days of primary and
                                    secondary school, (1957-1968) there were no programs like they have today.
                                    Even critics of the educational system must admit that this is an
                                    improvement for the bright kids. Problem is, they are NOT doing a good job
                                    on the other kids. I have my ideas on this...but will stop for now.
                                    >
                                    >Cheers,
                                    >
                                    >Dye Hawley
                                    >
                                    -- Michael Riversong **
                                    P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
                                    Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer **
                                    RivEdu@... **
                                    http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
                                    DESIGN ECOLOGY: Integrating Music, Environmental Education, and Advanced
                                    Technology to improve living and working environments.
                                  • Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations
                                    Dye, Michael, Jim, Dye, with respect, Get OFF it! Why dislike the expression? Is it jealousy? Look, gifted IS a fact. Mentally gifted students exist.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 14, 1999
                                      Dye, Michael, Jim,

                                      Dye, with respect, Get OFF it! Why dislike the expression? Is it
                                      jealousy? Look, "gifted" IS a fact. Mentally gifted students
                                      exist. Just like mentally challenged students exist. Physically
                                      gifted students exist, just like physically challenged students
                                      exist. The brain is a physical organ. Yes, we are all gifted with
                                      life, but it is incredibly clear that some people are born with
                                      more challenges than others.

                                      If you don't believe the above paragraph then there is something
                                      wrong with your thinking. Chromosomes AND the environment (on the
                                      negative side including especially poor nutrition, alcohol,
                                      tobacco, drugs, and accidents at birth time) can team up to produce
                                      both ends of the spectrum. The concept of our all being of the
                                      same mentally is based on false religion. Comments on request, if
                                      you don't already understand what I mean (... has to do with an
                                      erroneous concept of the soul).

                                      Dye, I'm a little older than you (but not than Wallace!) and I
                                      personally experienced a Gifted Children's Program for some years
                                      while I was attending school. It was good. The ONLY problem I
                                      encountered was jealousy from other kids, and that's their problem
                                      not mine. Name calling didn't bother me, though being beat up did.
                                      But that was a small price to pay. And when I could associate with
                                      higher-thinking academic decent and well-behaved kids, why for
                                      goodness sakes would I even want to associate with that crowd of
                                      rowdy vulgar dangerous child criminals? Of course they weren't all
                                      that way, but I'll tell you that the ringleaders were and the
                                      others were afraid to go against them.

                                      You know, a principal's wife sat in the outer office of a school my
                                      youngest son attended. My son had to discuss something with the
                                      principal, so my son and the principal's wife were both waiting in
                                      the outer office. Now she was talking to my son who was eventually
                                      to go into a gifted children's program for a while. I don't know
                                      how the conversation all came about, and I agree that she was a
                                      little out of line, but she clearly told my son that 90% of the
                                      kids in school were "no good" or words to that effect. (I think she
                                      was talking about genuine delinquency combined with a total lack of
                                      respect.) I wonder where she got that idea? Could it have been
                                      from her husband's having to deal with the delinquent criminal
                                      children? And make no mistake about it - if adults did what some
                                      of those kids did, they would be convicted in *criminal* court.
                                      Clearly the school brass saw that something had to be done to
                                      protect and educate the good kids, because time and effort was
                                      being wasted on the others - little more than babysitting. School
                                      officials put time, money, and effort into classes and events for
                                      sports excellers, why not do it for mental excellers too? Only
                                      makes sense.

                                      So, Michael, - now let us not dump on ALL Gifted Children's
                                      Associations or Gifted Children's programs before we have actually
                                      seen the beasts. Our experiences were certainly different. Your
                                      bad experiences or observations are probably skewing your judgement
                                      (perhaps as my good experiences are skewing mine!). I grew up in
                                      one such program in Jr. High School. Also, my youngest child was
                                      exposed to the program here at one point until there were funding
                                      problems. The program here (Delta, BC) was just EXCELLENT! And,
                                      the Gifted Children's Association (next door in Surrey, BC) was as
                                      well. So I don't think you or I have enough accumulated experience
                                      to know of all the programs in the various states and provinces.
                                      Each one will require investigating on an individual basis!! Just
                                      because there was a bad one or two doesn't mean much. And even if
                                      there is no funded Gifted Children's Program in a given area, there
                                      might still be a good Gifted Children's Association nearby which
                                      may have valuable resource information and maybe even mentoring and
                                      counseling for gifted children and their parents. I know that my
                                      wife and I got as much out of that association as my young son did,
                                      as the parents had very good invited speakers while the children
                                      attended special evening classes. I am a lot wiser now at being an
                                      intelligent advocate for a child. Too bad those extra classes for
                                      parents weren't around years before! And it was made abundantly
                                      clear that a child NEEDS an advocate in the modern educational
                                      system. Ask me to tell you about my son's special case. I sure
                                      learned a lot about how to deal with the system towards MY ends,
                                      and for the benefit of my son, as opposed to cow-towing to the
                                      school policies.

                                      I'm sorry - I AM familiar with homeschooling. I have nothing
                                      against it, except that it simply takes an exceptionally
                                      intelligent diligent and able parent to pull it off. I'm also
                                      sorry that not many are qualified, and not able. A mother and
                                      father are responsible to **see to it** that a child is educated,
                                      but they don't have to do it themselves.

                                      Tesla was homeschooled by his mom, wasn't he? What if he had a
                                      different mom, not as capable, interested or energetic? Heck,
                                      maybe Tesla would have turned out to be a smart criminal instead?
                                      Who knows? It could have happened.

                                      Again, I have nothing basic against homeschooling except that few
                                      parents are qualified or able for to do it right. That's just a
                                      fact.

                                      Michael, I agree with your statement about the dictionary and
                                      difficult terminology. But it does not end there. That's barely a
                                      beginning. For example, you aren't going to get hands-on PHYSICS
                                      and CHEMISTRY experience that way! I teach music now and then
                                      myself, but I also taught a few Gifted Children's classes on
                                      electricity and magnetism, at different schools. Hauled my
                                      equipment with me. Having seen the following syndromes first hand,
                                      at every school, I can say that what a good teacher needs to bring
                                      out in a child is the **thrill** of discovery (the "WOW!"
                                      syndrome), accompanied by the **thrill* of understanding how
                                      something works (The "Ahah!" syndrome), and the **thrill** of
                                      accomplishment (the "I did it myself" or the "Warm Feeling All
                                      Over" syndrome), and the **thrill** of knowing something that
                                      others don't yet (the "Feeling Special" syndrome). Combine this
                                      last syndrome with the "Be Good to Someone Else", or the "You
                                      Received Free, Give Free" syndromes and then you have the makings
                                      of a well-rounded personality. (These latter two syndromes also
                                      precipitate the "Warm Feeling All Over" syndrome.) Now you sure as
                                      **** aren't going to get that from the dictionary, now are you?
                                      And you most likely are NOT going to get that from the average (and
                                      strongly underqualified) parent trying desperately to do
                                      Homeschooling with no other kids around. What you need is a
                                      **qualified** teacher, and good, safe equipment, and some other
                                      students at an equivalent level. Then, you're OK. Otherwise you
                                      don't stand a chance of eliciting all the above syndromes! It so
                                      happens that I would be a qualified homeschool teacher. Knowing
                                      what I know, and realizing that many other parents I know have no
                                      such skills or knowledge, I realize that homeschooling is going to
                                      overburden some, if not most, parents, and rob the child of a good
                                      education. The clear advantage in homeschooling is the safety of
                                      being home away from the bullies of the schoolyard (or, in some
                                      cases religious persecution). That benefit is real, let me tell
                                      you! Does it outweigh a good science education? Maybe yes, maybe
                                      no. Depends on how dangerous the other students are, and then on
                                      how qualified the teachers are. Do I mean dangerous literally?
                                      Yes. I can think of several unfortunate families in Littleton who
                                      wish they had done homeschooling. For this and other reasons,
                                      I support keeping the Homeschooling option available.


                                      All the best,


                                      Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@...
                                      TRIUMF (Canada's National Meson Lab.) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6278/6327
                                      4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074
                                      University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3
                                      "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death."
                                      These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
                                      They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.

                                      >
                                      >Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:36:52 -0700 (PDT)
                                      >Message-Id: <199906142036.NAA27943@...>
                                      >To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                                      >From: Michael Riversong <rivedu@...>
                                      >Mailing-List: list usa-tesla@onelist.com; contact usa-tesla-owner@onelist.com
                                      >Delivered-To: mailing list usa-tesla@onelist.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)
                                      >
                                      >From: Michael Riversong <rivedu@...>
                                      >
                                      >Actually, gifted programs in most public schools are a hoax. There are a
                                      >few in some places, but not many are up and running. Added to that, is the
                                      >fact that many of these programs (including one i performed for in Bay City
                                      >Texas) are simply political systems, where the children of civic leaders are
                                      >groomed to be automatically placed in positions of power later on. That
                                      >particular gifted class was sterile and sad.
                                      >
                                      >What is working better these days, is homeschooling, and, particularly the
                                      >Unschooling branch. I am now in correspondence with a few people who left
                                      >school altogether and managed to become very able in various areas.
                                      >
                                      >My experience in teaching (mostly music lessons, on a very small scale)
                                      >shows that the most valuable skill any student can learn, is how to use a
                                      >dictionary. Most people drop off to sleep when confronted with a word they
                                      >don't understand. The fact that a few able scientists and engineers on this
                                      >list used to do that in class a lot, and went on to become excellent in
                                      >their fields, demonstrates that the terminology used in those classrooms was
                                      >generally irrelevant to the practical applications they have mastered.
                                      >
                                      >At 10:16 AM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
                                      >>Dear Jim:
                                      >>
                                      >>Interesting comments. I too, became bored in High School and just
                                      >"cruised" through like you. My son who is 5 1/2 years old is already
                                      >experiencing this in kindergarten at a Montessori School. His teachers say
                                      >that he is way ahead of the rest of the class and that he should go to a
                                      >private school or be placed in a "Gifted Child" (I detest that phrase!!!)
                                      >program at the public schools. If not, then he too will become bored of the
                                      >subject matter because he already knows it. Fortunately, today there are
                                      >more options for extremely bright children. In my days of primary and
                                      >secondary school, (1957-1968) there were no programs like they have today.
                                      >Even critics of the educational system must admit that this is an
                                      >improvement for the bright kids. Problem is, they are NOT doing a good job
                                      >on the other kids. I have my ideas on this...but will stop for now.
                                      >>
                                      >>Cheers,
                                      >>
                                      >>Dye Hawley
                                      >>
                                      >-- Michael Riversong **
                                      >P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
                                      >Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer **
                                      >RivEdu@... **
                                      >http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
                                      >DESIGN ECOLOGY: Integrating Music, Environmental Education, and Advanced
                                      >Technology to improve living and working environments.
                                      >
                                    • Michael Riversong
                                      From your note here, and other communications from Canada, i get the distinct impression that Gifted Programs are very different there, than in most parts of
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 15, 1999
                                        From your note here, and other communications from Canada, i get the
                                        distinct impression that Gifted Programs are very different there, than in
                                        most parts of the USA. In general Canadian education seems somewhat more
                                        successful than US. At least the people in Canada can engage in intelligent
                                        discussions of politics, which is all too rare in this country. There are
                                        times i consider trying to emigrate for that reason alone!

                                        As for homeschooling, i certainly agree with you that good parents are a
                                        must in order for it to be successful. And contact with other children is
                                        valuable. Many groups are always forming and breaking up, just for the
                                        purpose of getting groups of homeschooled children together. I cruise with
                                        some of these groups.

                                        I have gradually realized over the past few years that there needs to be
                                        some kind of intermediate professional in the homeschooling arena. This
                                        would be someone, perhaps like yourself, who spends a lot of time going to
                                        homeschool groups demonstrating science principles, or music, or some other
                                        specialty, and acts as a sort of free-lance educator. I have been trying to
                                        build this practice, but it is difficult. The biggest resistance has come
                                        from a very few homeschoolers who actually spread lies and slander about
                                        anyone like me! You would not believe how strange some homeschooling
                                        parents really are. But i figure, if i keep plugging away at this,
                                        eventually the resistance will collapse, and i will pave the way for many
                                        other professionals to come up and truly educate large numbers of children,
                                        without all the horrible baggage (and now real physical danger) that comes
                                        with the public school system.

                                        At 07:00 PM 6/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
                                        >From: "Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations" <MUSIC@...>
                                        >
                                        >Dye, Michael, Jim,
                                        >

                                        >snip<
                                        >
                                        > So, Michael, - now let us not dump on ALL Gifted Children's
                                        > Associations or Gifted Children's programs before we have actually
                                        > seen the beasts. Our experiences were certainly different. Your
                                        > bad experiences or observations are probably skewing your judgement
                                        > (perhaps as my good experiences are skewing mine!). I grew up in
                                        > one such program in Jr. High School. Also, my youngest child was
                                        > exposed to the program here at one point until there were funding
                                        > problems. The program here (Delta, BC) was just EXCELLENT! And,
                                        > the Gifted Children's Association (next door in Surrey, BC) was as
                                        > well. So I don't think you or I have enough accumulated experience
                                        > to know of all the programs in the various states and provinces.
                                        > Each one will require investigating on an individual basis!! Just
                                        > because there was a bad one or two doesn't mean much. And even if
                                        > there is no funded Gifted Children's Program in a given area, there
                                        > might still be a good Gifted Children's Association nearby which
                                        > may have valuable resource information and maybe even mentoring and
                                        > counseling for gifted children and their parents. I know that my
                                        > wife and I got as much out of that association as my young son did,
                                        > as the parents had very good invited speakers while the children
                                        > attended special evening classes. I am a lot wiser now at being an
                                        > intelligent advocate for a child. Too bad those extra classes for
                                        > parents weren't around years before! And it was made abundantly
                                        > clear that a child NEEDS an advocate in the modern educational
                                        > system. Ask me to tell you about my son's special case. I sure
                                        > learned a lot about how to deal with the system towards MY ends,
                                        > and for the benefit of my son, as opposed to cow-towing to the
                                        > school policies.
                                        >
                                        > I'm sorry - I AM familiar with homeschooling. I have nothing
                                        > against it, except that it simply takes an exceptionally
                                        > intelligent diligent and able parent to pull it off. I'm also
                                        > sorry that not many are qualified, and not able. A mother and
                                        > father are responsible to **see to it** that a child is educated,
                                        > but they don't have to do it themselves.
                                        >
                                        > Tesla was homeschooled by his mom, wasn't he? What if he had a
                                        > different mom, not as capable, interested or energetic? Heck,
                                        > maybe Tesla would have turned out to be a smart criminal instead?
                                        > Who knows? It could have happened.
                                        >
                                        > Again, I have nothing basic against homeschooling except that few
                                        > parents are qualified or able for to do it right. That's just a
                                        > fact.
                                        >
                                        > Michael, I agree with your statement about the dictionary and
                                        > difficult terminology. But it does not end there. That's barely a
                                        > beginning. For example, you aren't going to get hands-on PHYSICS
                                        > and CHEMISTRY experience that way! I teach music now and then
                                        > myself, but I also taught a few Gifted Children's classes on
                                        > electricity and magnetism, at different schools. Hauled my
                                        > equipment with me. Having seen the following syndromes first hand,
                                        > at every school, I can say that what a good teacher needs to bring
                                        > out in a child is the **thrill** of discovery (the "WOW!"
                                        > syndrome), accompanied by the **thrill* of understanding how
                                        > something works (The "Ahah!" syndrome), and the **thrill** of
                                        > accomplishment (the "I did it myself" or the "Warm Feeling All
                                        > Over" syndrome), and the **thrill** of knowing something that
                                        > others don't yet (the "Feeling Special" syndrome). Combine this
                                        > last syndrome with the "Be Good to Someone Else", or the "You
                                        > Received Free, Give Free" syndromes and then you have the makings
                                        > of a well-rounded personality. (These latter two syndromes also
                                        > precipitate the "Warm Feeling All Over" syndrome.) Now you sure as
                                        > **** aren't going to get that from the dictionary, now are you?
                                        > And you most likely are NOT going to get that from the average (and
                                        > strongly underqualified) parent trying desperately to do
                                        > Homeschooling with no other kids around. What you need is a
                                        > **qualified** teacher, and good, safe equipment, and some other
                                        > students at an equivalent level. Then, you're OK. Otherwise you
                                        > don't stand a chance of eliciting all the above syndromes! It so
                                        > happens that I would be a qualified homeschool teacher. Knowing
                                        > what I know, and realizing that many other parents I know have no
                                        > such skills or knowledge, I realize that homeschooling is going to
                                        > overburden some, if not most, parents, and rob the child of a good
                                        > education. The clear advantage in homeschooling is the safety of
                                        > being home away from the bullies of the schoolyard (or, in some
                                        > cases religious persecution). That benefit is real, let me tell
                                        > you! Does it outweigh a good science education? Maybe yes, maybe
                                        > no. Depends on how dangerous the other students are, and then on
                                        > how qualified the teachers are. Do I mean dangerous literally?
                                        > Yes. I can think of several unfortunate families in Littleton who
                                        > wish they had done homeschooling. For this and other reasons,
                                        > I support keeping the Homeschooling option available.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > All the best,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@...
                                        > TRIUMF (Canada's National Meson Lab.) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6278/6327
                                        > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074
                                        > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3
                                        > "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death."
                                        > These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
                                        > They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.
                                        >
                                        -- Michael Riversong **
                                        P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
                                        Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer **
                                        RivEdu@... **
                                        http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
                                        DESIGN ECOLOGY: Integrating Music, Environmental Education, and Advanced
                                        Technology to improve living and working environments.
                                      • Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations
                                        Michael, I believe we are in agreement. I wish you the best of success at improving the homeschooling situation. I agree that a qualified travelling teacher
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 15, 1999
                                          Michael,

                                          I believe we are in agreement.

                                          I wish you the best of success at improving the homeschooling
                                          situation. I agree that a qualified travelling teacher is
                                          required. We have them here - and they visit the hospitals too -
                                          where the child has to be out of school due to a medical condition.

                                          As my own kids are grown and I'm not in that part of the school
                                          system any more, I am not at the moment a member of the local
                                          Gifted Children's association. And I no longer travel to schools
                                          teaching and demonstrating electromechanics. (I did like to see
                                          the kids' eyes light up, though.) Instead I just take on coop
                                          students here at work.

                                          Cheers,

                                          .. Fred Bach music@... Opinions are my own.

                                          >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:45:14 -0700 (PDT)
                                          >Message-Id: <199906152345.QAA11301@...>
                                          >To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                                          >From: Michael Riversong <rivedu@...>
                                          >Mailing-List: list usa-tesla@onelist.com; contact usa-tesla-owner@onelist.com
                                          >Reply-to: usa-tesla@onelist.com
                                          >Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Improving IQ (related to: Brain Stimulation)
                                          >
                                          >From: Michael Riversong <rivedu@...>
                                          >
                                          >From your note here, and other communications from Canada, i get the
                                          >distinct impression that Gifted Programs are very different there, than in
                                          >most parts of the USA. In general Canadian education seems somewhat more
                                          >successful than US. At least the people in Canada can engage in intelligent
                                          >discussions of politics, which is all too rare in this country. There are
                                          >times i consider trying to emigrate for that reason alone!
                                          >
                                          >As for homeschooling, i certainly agree with you that good parents are a
                                          >must in order for it to be successful. And contact with other children is
                                          >valuable. Many groups are always forming and breaking up, just for the
                                          >purpose of getting groups of homeschooled children together. I cruise with
                                          >some of these groups.
                                          >
                                          >I have gradually realized over the past few years that there needs to be
                                          >some kind of intermediate professional in the homeschooling arena. This
                                          >would be someone, perhaps like yourself, who spends a lot of time going to
                                          >homeschool groups demonstrating science principles, or music, or some other
                                          >specialty, and acts as a sort of free-lance educator. I have been trying to
                                          >build this practice, but it is difficult. The biggest resistance has come
                                          >from a very few homeschoolers who actually spread lies and slander about
                                          >anyone like me! You would not believe how strange some homeschooling
                                          >parents really are. But i figure, if i keep plugging away at this,
                                          >eventually the resistance will collapse, and i will pave the way for many
                                          >other professionals to come up and truly educate large numbers of children,
                                          >without all the horrible baggage (and now real physical danger) that comes
                                          >with the public school system.
                                          >

                                          [snip]
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