## Re: [usa-tesla] Speed of Light & Time

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• Certainly guys building rifles and artillery knew that the speed of sound was no limit for a projectile. Even a 58 caliber civil war musket exceeds 1100 fps
Message 1 of 10 , Feb 19, 2004

"Certainly guys building rifles and artillery knew that the speed of sound was no limit for a projectile. Even a 58 caliber civil war musket exceeds 1100 fps with a really hot load."

Just because they used it doesn't mean they understood or thought about it. We know that a photon travels at the speed of light, but do we think that we can? This logic would be the same as someone 200 years from now saying that we understood all aspects and dynamics of the speed of light because we knew that a photon could travel that fast and had a few handy mathematical equations showing its relationship to different setting.

"Yes indeed. The ballistic pendulum has been around for a long time and
gives pretty accurate results if you're careful. Velocity can also be
estimated from drop of the projectile, and an even simpler check is to
see (hear) if the sound of the shot arrives before the bullet!"

I agree that the ballistic pendulum has been around for some time...Benjamin Robins did much of this in the mid 1700's around 1741, but was he really looking at projectiles traveling faster than the speed of sound? There was only two objectives in those times 1. Get the projectile farther away and 2. Make it more accurate. For the first case o' Benjamin was looking at resistance as a way to improve the range of the projectile. For the second case he was looking at initial angles and projections to improve the accuracy of the weapon. His treatise on "New Principles of Gunnery" is surrounding these two principles. I would not go as far to state that this is a clear cut case that someone in the 1700's was using a ballistic pendulum to prove objects could go quicker than sound. As for the person getting hit with the bullet before they heard the shot... how many years did people look up in the night sky or the day and see a circular sun & circular moon, yet when it came to the shape of the earth it was square and flat. Just because they see it and look at it every day does not mean they understand it.

"Ernst Mach's first important investigations into supersonic flow were
published in 1877, by which time all important principles were well
understood and expressed mathematically."

I wish it was that simple. Publish a paper and that second everyone understands. Scientists are a funny bunch... given a logical evolutionary step in the knowledge realm and we can handle it just fine. Give us a revolutionary step in knowledge and we will fight it for years (Einstein, Galileo, Tesla, ect...). Ernst Mach was a superb scientist and mathematician who falls into the "revolutionary" side. I've actually read a couple of Mach's papers and "Die Machanik" which was actually published a few years earlier than 1877 (1863) is what I'm familiar with. What I remember from this was he talked mostly about traveling at the speed of sound not faster (much like we talk about traveling at the speed of light, but not faster). In it he really didn't focus on supersonic flow, but was a pretense into "frames of reference" which many individuals still think this is where Einstein got his inspiration for General Relativity. Einstein himself was so inspired by Mach's work that he named it "Mach's Principle." I may be missing the boat in what paper I'm looking at as your paper reference in 1877... would you have a title that I could further research into?

My example of the speed of sound was a general belief. I never meant to say or mean that not one single person thought that there was a way to go faster than the speed of sound. I was merely trying to give the majority view point. Even today there are people who think we can go faster than the speed of light and some even use odd theories or even strange math to prove their points. I would not go so far to say that everyone believes them, or they have a majority.

I really could care less one way or another if a 100 years ago they did or did not believe one could go faster than the speed of sound. I do care to look at what currently most people think in regards to the speed of light being a universal limit. If it truly is a limit I was looking for further proof besides the Lorentz transformation. A 100 years ago a person just had to look around to see things traveling faster than the speed of sound (light, projectiles, ect..). What I'm trying to do is look around and see if there is anything going faster than the speed of light. What I keep seeing is from what we know that it would be infinite mass, infinite dimension, and going back in time. This seems absurd, so one may attribute these characteristics to what happens when you divide by zero. What characteristics would something have if it was going faster than the speed of light? The easy out is to say that nothing goes faster than the speed of light, so why look? If you never look or try to see outside the box how can we grow?

Ed Phillips <Ev@PAC BELL.NET> wrote:
"Ed, I wonder if there was any equipment in the 1861-1865 Civil War era
that
would let them *know* that such a bullet was exceeding the speed of
sound?

Jim"

Yes indeed.  The ballistic pendulum has been around for a long time and
gives pretty accurate results if you're careful.  Velocity can also be
estimated from drop of the projectile, and an even simpler check is to
see (hear) if the sound of the shot arrives before the bullet!

Ernst Mach's first important investigations into supersonic flow were
published in 1877, by which time all important principles were well
understood and expressed mathematically.

Ed

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• Dear sir, There most definitely is something that travels faster than light - and that is darkness cos its always there before the light. lol BJ Nikola Tesla
Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2004
Dear sir,
There most definitely is something that travels faster than light - and that is darkness 'cos its always there before the light. lol
BJ

Nikola Tesla <ntesla27@...> wrote:

"Certainly guys building rifles and artillery knew that the speed of sound was no limit for a projectile. Even a 58 caliber civil war musket exceeds 1100 fps with a really hot load."

Just because they used it doesn't mean they understood or thought about it. We know that a photon travels at the speed of light, but do we think that we can? This logic would be the same as someone 200 years from now saying that we understood all aspects and dynamics of the speed of light because we knew that a photon could travel that fast and had a few handy mathematical equations showing its relationship to different setting.

"Yes indeed. The ballistic pendulum has been around for a long time and
gives pretty accurate results if you're careful. Velocity can also be
estimated from drop of the projectile, and an even simpler check is to
see (hear) if the sound of the shot arrives before the bullet!"

I agree that the ballistic pendulum has been around for some time...Benjamin Robins did much of this in the mid 1700's around 1741, but was he really looking at projectiles traveling faster than the speed of sound? There was only two objectives in those times 1. Get the projectile farther away and 2. Make it more accurate. For the first case o' Benjamin was looking at resistance as a way to improve the range of the projectile. For the second case he was looking at initial angles and projections to improve the accuracy of the weapon. His treatise on "New Principles of Gunnery" is surrounding these two principles. I would not go as far to state that this is a clear cut case that someone in the 1700's was using a ballistic pendulum to prove objects could go quicker than sound. As for the person getting hit with the bullet before they heard the shot... how many years did people look up in the night sky or the day and see a circular sun & circular moon, yet when it came to the shape of the earth it was square and flat. Just because they see it and look at it every day does not mean they understand it.

"Ernst Mach's first important investigations into supersonic flow were
published in 1877, by which time all important principles were well
understood and expressed mathematically."

I wish it was that simple. Publish a paper and that second everyone understands. Scientists are a funny bunch... given a logical evolutionary step in the knowledge realm and we can handle it just fine. Give us a revolutionary step in knowledge and we will fight it for years (Einstein, Galileo, Tesla, ect...). Ernst Mach was a superb scientist and mathematician who falls into the "revolutionary" side. I've actually read a couple of Mach's papers and "Die Machanik" which was actually published a few years earlier than 1877 (1863) is what I'm familiar with. What I remember from this was he talked mostly about traveling at the speed of sound not faster (much like we talk about traveling at the speed of light, but not faster). In it he really didn't focus on supersonic flow, but was a pretense into "frames of reference" which many individuals still think this is where Einstein got his inspiration for General Relativity. Einstein himself was so inspired by Mach's work that he named it "Mach's Principle." I may be missing the boat in what paper I'm looking at as your paper reference in 1877... would you have a title that I could further research into?

My example of the speed of sound was a general belief. I never meant to say or mean that not one single person thought that there was a way to go faster than the speed of sound. I was merely trying to give the majority view point. Even today there are people who think we can go faster than the speed of light and some even use odd theories or even strange math to prove their points. I would not go so far to say that everyone believes them, or they have a majority.

I really could care less one way or another if a 100 years ago they did or did not believe one could go faster than the speed of sound. I do care to look at what currently most people think in regards to the speed of light being a universal limit. If it truly is a limit I was looking for further proof besides the Lorentz transformation. A 100 years ago a person just had to look around to see things traveling faster than the speed of sound (light, projectiles, ect..). What I'm trying to do is look around and see if there is anything going faster than the speed of light. What I keep seeing is from what we know that it would be infinite mass, infinite dimension, and going back in time. This seems absurd, so one may attribute these characteristics to what happens when you divide by zero. What characteristics would something have if it was going faster than the speed of light? The easy out is to say that nothing goes faster than the speed of light, so why look? If you never look or try to see outside the box how can we grow?

Ed Phillips <Ev@PAC BELL.NET> wrote:
"Ed, I wonder if there was any equipment in the 1861-1865 Civil War era
that
would let them *know* that such a bullet was exceeding the speed of
sound?

Jim"

Yes indeed.  The ballistic pendulum has been around for a long time and
gives pretty accurate results if you're careful.  Velocity can also be
estimated from drop of the projectile, and an even simpler check is to
see (hear) if the sound of the shot arrives before the bullet!

Ernst Mach's first important investigations into supersonic flow were
published in 1877, by which time all important principles were well
understood and expressed mathematically.

Ed

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