Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

The French Ruckus

Expand Messages
  • mandreox
    For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt confidant that I
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 9, 2005
      For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
      France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt
      confidant that I understood what was going on and that older friends
      and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I spent a
      couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France and
      then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current rioting
      began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating me from
      these folks. We even speak a different body language.
    • souvienstoidemoublier
      This is a good bit tangential, but I wonder if something has changed in body language and consciousness out of podiums and pulpits becoming less important and
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 9, 2005
        This is a good bit tangential, but I wonder if something has changed
        in body language and consciousness out of podiums and pulpits becoming
        less important and people speaking to us out of boxes or on monitors
        and screens, people we can zap away . . .

        Body distance can be a real disorienting thing if you are with someone
        who personally or culturally is into more in your face stuff, as this
        usually involves consent, sexual intimacy or impending violence.

        --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        >
        > For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
        > France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt
        > confidant that I understood what was going on and that older friends
        > and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I spent
        a
        > couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France and
        > then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current rioting
        > began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating me
        from
        > these folks. We even speak a different body language.
        >
      • Kirby Olson
        It seems that the extreme poor are the usual ones who create riots. I wonder if there has ever been an upper-class riot.
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 9, 2005
          It seems that the extreme poor are the usual ones who create riots. I
          wonder if there has ever been an upper-class riot.
        • Halvard Johnson
          ... Not the extreme poor, Kirby. They re too weak from hunger. Mao said it (as I recall): Feed a starving peasant; create a revolutionary. Hal
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 9, 2005
            On Nov 9, 2005, at 2:15 PM, Kirby Olson wrote:

            > It seems that the extreme poor are the usual ones who create riots. I
            > wonder if there has ever been an upper-class riot.

            Not the "extreme poor," Kirby. They're too weak from hunger.
            Mao said it (as I recall): "Feed a starving peasant; create a
            revolutionary."

            Hal
          • souvienstoidemoublier
            That might be begging the question, the upper class often has organized structures and institutions through which it can channel violence in a civilized and
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 9, 2005
              That might be begging the question, the upper class often has
              organized structures and institutions through which it can channel
              violence in a "civilized" and premeditated way. They don't need
              Molotov cocktails, they own the tanks.

              I forget the name of the Commission but there was a commission that
              investigated what happened in Chicago in 1968, it called it a "police
              riot."

              The Simpson verdict may have, in part, been a reaction against
              officially condoned violence and illegality against blacks . . . but
              we don't normally think in terms of the people in uniforms or with
              tanks being rioters.

              The unknown guy standing up to the tank in Tiennamen Square, I took to
              the streets in America to support him . . . was he a rioter or was the
              guy in the tank the rioter? I guess the guy standing up to the tank
              was the rioter, the guy in the tank had the permit.

              Weren't there some elements of riot or overkill in Nelson
              Rockefeller's retaking of Attica? Was there any overkill at Kent
              State?

              Did you see "The Passion of the Christ?" Wasn't that, in part, about
              official violence?

              What if I fabricate attrocities?

              What if I falsify something about the Gulf of Tonkin to get the U.S.
              more involved in Viet Nam or wear blinders in order to draw a self-
              gratifying conclusion about weapons of mass destruction in a foreign
              country, doesn't that have some similarities to rioting?






              --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson" <kirbyolson2@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > It seems that the extreme poor are the usual ones who create riots.
              I
              > wonder if there has ever been an upper-class riot.
              >
            • Kirby Olson
              Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but they re from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English, and they are lazy as
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 10, 2005
                Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but they're
                from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English, and they are
                lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what college is, or
                what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think the whole
                world is corrupt and that only military power really matters, and that books
                are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very hard to dent
                this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they are more or
                less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or outward
                manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that the world is
                hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect the law of
                any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal with.

                There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law doesn't matter.
                I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing smokestack in the
                Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam ever since and is
                now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public park to
                public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to contact me
                because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of conspiracy to
                hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If you're going to do
                something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my oldest
                friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some vigilante
                Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his effort. He's
                also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant signs.

                And now he does these other direct-action type things. I don't even know
                what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want people to
                stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids burning out
                school busses. Don't they know this is their own infrastructure? You have
                to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were perhaps more
                understandable as it was an immediate response to what amounted to a death
                sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no understanding of
                whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany was at least
                legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately. The Irish day
                laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten thousand men
                employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success, and the
                beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even into the
                police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such excuse. He
                was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-known lawyer
                in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th century anarchist
                Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the Unibomber.

                I don't.

                Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through as Rutertoot.
                could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith? Couldn't people at
                least use a first name?

                -- Kirby


                >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                >
                >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
                >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt
                >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older friends
                >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I spent a
                >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France and
                >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current rioting
                >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating me from
                >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • mandreox
                College students at the City University of New York were boring and dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of the world. I am now amazed
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 10, 2005
                  College students at the City University of New York were boring and
                  dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of the
                  world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old friends.
                  But I quit teaching college English because my students had more to
                  learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing to teach
                  me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually, during
                  my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of Amazon I
                  have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at Baruch.
                  He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some complex
                  idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the A he
                  wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he were in
                  this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the Iliad.

                  --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson" <kirbyolson2@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but
                  they're
                  > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English, and
                  they are
                  > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what
                  college is, or
                  > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think the
                  whole
                  > world is corrupt and that only military power really matters, and
                  that books
                  > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very hard to
                  dent
                  > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they are
                  more or
                  > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                  outward
                  > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that the
                  world is
                  > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect the
                  law of
                  > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal with.
                  >
                  > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                  doesn't matter.
                  > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing smokestack
                  in the
                  > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam ever
                  since and is
                  > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public park
                  to
                  > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                  contact me
                  > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                  conspiracy to
                  > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If you're
                  going to do
                  > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my
                  oldest
                  > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some
                  vigilante
                  > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                  effort. He's
                  > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant signs.
                  >
                  > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I don't
                  even know
                  > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want
                  people to
                  > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids burning
                  out
                  > school busses. Don't they know this is their own infrastructure?
                  You have
                  > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were perhaps
                  more
                  > understandable as it was an immediate response to what amounted to
                  a death
                  > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                  understanding of
                  > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany was
                  at least
                  > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately. The
                  Irish day
                  > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten
                  thousand men
                  > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success, and
                  the
                  > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even into
                  the
                  > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such
                  excuse. He
                  > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-known
                  lawyer
                  > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th century
                  anarchist
                  > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the Unibomber.
                  >
                  > I don't.
                  >
                  > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through as
                  Rutertoot.
                  > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith? Couldn't
                  people at
                  > least use a first name?
                  >
                  > -- Kirby
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                  > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                  > >
                  > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
                  > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt
                  > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older
                  friends
                  > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I
                  spent a
                  > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France and
                  > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current rioting
                  > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating me
                  from
                  > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • souvienstoidemoublier
                  Are you all having another power outage? ... teach ... and ... to ... smokestack ... park ... signs. ... into ... known ... felt ... and ... rioting ... me
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 10, 2005
                    Are you all having another power outage?

                    --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > College students at the City University of New York were boring and
                    > dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of the
                    > world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old friends.
                    > But I quit teaching college English because my students had more to
                    > learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing to
                    teach
                    > me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually, during
                    > my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of Amazon I
                    > have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at Baruch.
                    > He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some complex
                    > idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the A he
                    > wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he were in
                    > this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the Iliad.
                    >
                    > --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson" <kirbyolson2@h...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but
                    > they're
                    > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English,
                    and
                    > they are
                    > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what
                    > college is, or
                    > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think the
                    > whole
                    > > world is corrupt and that only military power really matters, and
                    > that books
                    > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very hard
                    to
                    > dent
                    > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they are
                    > more or
                    > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                    > outward
                    > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that the
                    > world is
                    > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect the
                    > law of
                    > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal with.
                    > >
                    > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                    > doesn't matter.
                    > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                    smokestack
                    > in the
                    > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam ever
                    > since and is
                    > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public
                    park
                    > to
                    > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                    > contact me
                    > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                    > conspiracy to
                    > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If you're
                    > going to do
                    > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my
                    > oldest
                    > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some
                    > vigilante
                    > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                    > effort. He's
                    > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant
                    signs.
                    > >
                    > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I don't
                    > even know
                    > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want
                    > people to
                    > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids burning
                    > out
                    > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own infrastructure?
                    > You have
                    > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were perhaps
                    > more
                    > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what amounted to
                    > a death
                    > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                    > understanding of
                    > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany was
                    > at least
                    > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately. The
                    > Irish day
                    > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten
                    > thousand men
                    > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success, and
                    > the
                    > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even
                    into
                    > the
                    > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such
                    > excuse. He
                    > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-
                    known
                    > lawyer
                    > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th century
                    > anarchist
                    > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the Unibomber.
                    > >
                    > > I don't.
                    > >
                    > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through as
                    > Rutertoot.
                    > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith? Couldn't
                    > people at
                    > > least use a first name?
                    > >
                    > > -- Kirby
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                    > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                    > > >
                    > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
                    > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I
                    felt
                    > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older
                    > friends
                    > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I
                    > spent a
                    > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France
                    and
                    > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current
                    rioting
                    > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating
                    me
                    > from
                    > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Kirby Olson
                    I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched thirty kids in the Myth class
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 11, 2005
                      I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in English)
                      using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched thirty kids in the Myth
                      class through it. About half were inner city kids from the five boroughs.
                      They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes unless they
                      kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit in class and
                      read their books during class time because they refused to read outside of
                      class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They started a wild
                      discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and so on. I
                      suppose that too is a kind of riot.

                      Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless as Cyclops.
                      Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker of Cities.
                      Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not provide
                      hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually eats the
                      strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem about how unwise
                      it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite wonderful, though.

                      I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers that purported
                      to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to my pastor, and
                      he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it. He's teaching
                      them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.

                      Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King beating is
                      even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and order.

                      The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the most terrifying
                      on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political prisoner and
                      give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a party of
                      Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or worse, but I
                      think our constitutional protections are still so strong that it's not
                      possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.

                      -- Kirby


                      >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                      >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                      >
                      >College students at the City University of New York were boring and
                      >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of the
                      >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old friends.
                      >But I quit teaching college English because my students had more to
                      >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing to teach
                      >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually, during
                      >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of Amazon I
                      >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at Baruch.
                      >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some complex
                      >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the A he
                      >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he were in
                      >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the Iliad.
                      >
                      >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson" <kirbyolson2@h...>
                      >wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but
                      >they're
                      > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English, and
                      >they are
                      > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what
                      >college is, or
                      > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think the
                      >whole
                      > > world is corrupt and that only military power really matters, and
                      >that books
                      > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very hard to
                      >dent
                      > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they are
                      >more or
                      > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                      >outward
                      > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that the
                      >world is
                      > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect the
                      >law of
                      > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal with.
                      > >
                      > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                      >doesn't matter.
                      > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing smokestack
                      >in the
                      > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam ever
                      >since and is
                      > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public park
                      >to
                      > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                      >contact me
                      > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                      >conspiracy to
                      > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If you're
                      >going to do
                      > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my
                      >oldest
                      > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some
                      >vigilante
                      > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                      >effort. He's
                      > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant signs.
                      > >
                      > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I don't
                      >even know
                      > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want
                      >people to
                      > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids burning
                      >out
                      > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own infrastructure?
                      >You have
                      > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were perhaps
                      >more
                      > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what amounted to
                      >a death
                      > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                      >understanding of
                      > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany was
                      >at least
                      > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately. The
                      >Irish day
                      > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten
                      >thousand men
                      > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success, and
                      >the
                      > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even into
                      >the
                      > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such
                      >excuse. He
                      > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-known
                      >lawyer
                      > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th century
                      >anarchist
                      > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the Unibomber.
                      > >
                      > > I don't.
                      > >
                      > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through as
                      >Rutertoot.
                      > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith? Couldn't
                      >people at
                      > > least use a first name?
                      > >
                      > > -- Kirby
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                      > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                      > > >
                      > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne. When
                      > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I felt
                      > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older
                      >friends
                      > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I
                      >spent a
                      > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern France and
                      > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current rioting
                      > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm separating me
                      >from
                      > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • mandreox
                      For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria. Charley D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his undergraduate work in classics
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 11, 2005
                        For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria. Charley
                        D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his
                        undergraduate work in classics at Harvard and then did his graduate
                        work at SUNY-Buffalo under (could this be right?) Charles Olson. I
                        love Charley D. but he is an alcoholic paranoid. He had been fired
                        from a classics job in Austin, moved to New York, and undertook to
                        teach me Homer using a marvelous textbook, Clyde Pharr's Homeric
                        Greek. The price for my lessons? Whatever alcohol we consumed at
                        Whatever Bar or Restaurant. This went on merrily for some months
                        until Charley discovered I was his enemy. Gradually he discovered
                        that everyone in New York was his enemy and disappeared. Then,
                        through one of my own ill-fated marriages, I got to know Victor Bers,
                        a distinguished Hellenist at Yale. Victor had the usual contempt for
                        his own undergraduate students but he didn`t quibble with my readings
                        of Homer. Thus it felt sadly like a door closing when, in the course
                        of divorcing Victor's sister-in-law, Clyde too for some years
                        vanished.

                        Now thanks to Amazon Clyde is back in my life. My other favorite
                        books are the Loeb bilingual edition and Alexander Pope's Iliad.

                        The Greek language is still evolving. The Greek New Testament falls
                        between Homer and the current demotic spoken in Athens.

                        --Michael Andre

                        --- "Kirby Olson" wrote:
                        I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in
                        English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched thirty
                        kids in the Myth
                        > class through it. About half were inner city kids from the five
                        boroughs.
                        > They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes
                        unless they
                        > kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit in
                        class and
                        > read their books during class time because they refused to read
                        outside of
                        > class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They started
                        a wild
                        > discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and so
                        on. I
                        > suppose that too is a kind of riot.
                        >
                        > Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless as
                        Cyclops.
                        > Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker of
                        Cities.
                        > Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not
                        provide
                        > hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually eats
                        the
                        > strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem about
                        how unwise
                        > it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite
                        wonderful, though.
                        >
                        > I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers that
                        purported
                        > to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to my
                        pastor, and
                        > he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it. He's
                        teaching
                        > them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.
                        >
                        > Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King
                        beating is
                        > even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and order.
                        >
                        > The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the most
                        terrifying
                        > on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political
                        prisoner and
                        > give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a party
                        of
                        > Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or worse,
                        but I
                        > think our constitutional protections are still so strong that it's
                        not
                        > possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.
                        >
                        > -- Kirby
                        >
                        >
                        > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                        > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                        > >
                        > >College students at the City University of New York were boring and
                        > >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of
                        the
                        > >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old friends.
                        > >But I quit teaching college English because my students had more to
                        > >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing to
                        teach
                        > >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually,
                        during
                        > >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of Amazon I
                        > >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at Baruch.
                        > >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some complex
                        > >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the A he
                        > >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he were
                        in
                        > >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the Iliad.
                        > >
                        > >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson"
                        <kirbyolson2@h...>
                        > >wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students, but
                        > >they're
                        > > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak English,
                        and
                        > >they are
                        > > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what
                        > >college is, or
                        > > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think
                        the
                        > >whole
                        > > > world is corrupt and that only military power really matters,
                        and
                        > >that books
                        > > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very
                        hard to
                        > >dent
                        > > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they
                        are
                        > >more or
                        > > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                        > >outward
                        > > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that the
                        > >world is
                        > > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect
                        the
                        > >law of
                        > > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal with.
                        > > >
                        > > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                        > >doesn't matter.
                        > > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                        smokestack
                        > >in the
                        > > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam ever
                        > >since and is
                        > > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public
                        park
                        > >to
                        > > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                        > >contact me
                        > > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                        > >conspiracy to
                        > > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If you're
                        > >going to do
                        > > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my
                        > >oldest
                        > > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some
                        > >vigilante
                        > > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                        > >effort. He's
                        > > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant
                        signs.
                        > > >
                        > > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I don't
                        > >even know
                        > > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want
                        > >people to
                        > > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids
                        burning
                        > >out
                        > > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own
                        infrastructure?
                        > >You have
                        > > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were perhaps
                        > >more
                        > > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what amounted
                        to
                        > >a death
                        > > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                        > >understanding of
                        > > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany
                        was
                        > >at least
                        > > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately.
                        The
                        > >Irish day
                        > > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten
                        > >thousand men
                        > > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success, and
                        > >the
                        > > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even
                        into
                        > >the
                        > > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such
                        > >excuse. He
                        > > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-
                        known
                        > >lawyer
                        > > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th
                        century
                        > >anarchist
                        > > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the Unibomber.
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't.
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through as
                        > >Rutertoot.
                        > > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith?
                        Couldn't
                        > >people at
                        > > > least use a first name?
                        > > >
                        > > > -- Kirby
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                        > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                        > > > >
                        > > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne.
                        When
                        > > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968, I
                        felt
                        > > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older
                        > >friends
                        > > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago I
                        > >spent a
                        > > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern
                        France and
                        > > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current
                        rioting
                        > > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm
                        separating me
                        > >from
                        > > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • souvienstoidemoublier
                        I think that if you had been an avid enough viewer of the Simpsons, you would already know that for many people to understand Homer, they have to drink Duff
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 12, 2005
                          I think that if you had been an avid enough viewer of the Simpsons,
                          you would already know that for many people to understand Homer, they
                          have to drink Duff Beer.

                          Is your friend still alive?

                          It looks like he translated and edited at least one work of Giordano
                          Bruno, who was an influence on Joyce's "Finnegans Wake", if I remember
                          right.

                          --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria. Charley
                          > D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his
                          > undergraduate work in classics at Harvard and then did his graduate
                          > work at SUNY-Buffalo under (could this be right?) Charles Olson. I
                          > love Charley D. but he is an alcoholic paranoid. He had been fired
                          > from a classics job in Austin, moved to New York, and undertook to
                          > teach me Homer using a marvelous textbook, Clyde Pharr's Homeric
                          > Greek. The price for my lessons? Whatever alcohol we consumed at
                          > Whatever Bar or Restaurant. This went on merrily for some months
                          > until Charley discovered I was his enemy. Gradually he discovered
                          > that everyone in New York was his enemy and disappeared. Then,
                          > through one of my own ill-fated marriages, I got to know Victor
                          Bers,
                          > a distinguished Hellenist at Yale. Victor had the usual contempt for
                          > his own undergraduate students but he didn`t quibble with my
                          readings
                          > of Homer. Thus it felt sadly like a door closing when, in the course
                          > of divorcing Victor's sister-in-law, Clyde too for some years
                          > vanished.
                          >
                          > Now thanks to Amazon Clyde is back in my life. My other favorite
                          > books are the Loeb bilingual edition and Alexander Pope's Iliad.
                          >
                          > The Greek language is still evolving. The Greek New Testament falls
                          > between Homer and the current demotic spoken in Athens.
                          >
                          > --Michael Andre
                          >
                          > --- "Kirby Olson" wrote:
                          > I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in
                          > English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched thirty
                          > kids in the Myth
                          > > class through it. About half were inner city kids from the five
                          > boroughs.
                          > > They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes
                          > unless they
                          > > kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit in
                          > class and
                          > > read their books during class time because they refused to read
                          > outside of
                          > > class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They started
                          > a wild
                          > > discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and so
                          > on. I
                          > > suppose that too is a kind of riot.
                          > >
                          > > Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless as
                          > Cyclops.
                          > > Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker of
                          > Cities.
                          > > Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not
                          > provide
                          > > hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually eats
                          > the
                          > > strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem about
                          > how unwise
                          > > it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite
                          > wonderful, though.
                          > >
                          > > I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers that
                          > purported
                          > > to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to my
                          > pastor, and
                          > > he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it.
                          He's
                          > teaching
                          > > them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.
                          > >
                          > > Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King
                          > beating is
                          > > even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and order.
                          > >
                          > > The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the most
                          > terrifying
                          > > on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political
                          > prisoner and
                          > > give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a party
                          > of
                          > > Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or worse,
                          > but I
                          > > think our constitutional protections are still so strong that it's
                          > not
                          > > possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.
                          > >
                          > > -- Kirby
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                          > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                          > > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                          > > >
                          > > >College students at the City University of New York were boring
                          and
                          > > >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light of
                          > the
                          > > >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old
                          friends.
                          > > >But I quit teaching college English because my students had more
                          to
                          > > >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing to
                          > teach
                          > > >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually,
                          > during
                          > > >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of Amazon I
                          > > >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at Baruch.
                          > > >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some
                          complex
                          > > >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the A
                          he
                          > > >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he were
                          > in
                          > > >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the Iliad.
                          > > >
                          > > >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson"
                          > <kirbyolson2@h...>
                          > > >wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim students,
                          but
                          > > >they're
                          > > > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak
                          English,
                          > and
                          > > >they are
                          > > > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea what
                          > > >college is, or
                          > > > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they think
                          > the
                          > > >whole
                          > > > > world is corrupt and that only military power really matters,
                          > and
                          > > >that books
                          > > > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very
                          > hard to
                          > > >dent
                          > > > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and they
                          > are
                          > > >more or
                          > > > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                          > > >outward
                          > > > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that
                          the
                          > > >world is
                          > > > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't respect
                          > the
                          > > >law of
                          > > > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal
                          with.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                          > > >doesn't matter.
                          > > > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                          > smokestack
                          > > >in the
                          > > > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam
                          ever
                          > > >since and is
                          > > > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from public
                          > park
                          > > >to
                          > > > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                          > > >contact me
                          > > > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                          > > >conspiracy to
                          > > > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If
                          you're
                          > > >going to do
                          > > > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of my
                          > > >oldest
                          > > > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for some
                          > > >vigilante
                          > > > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                          > > >effort. He's
                          > > > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to plant
                          > signs.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I
                          don't
                          > > >even know
                          > > > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I want
                          > > >people to
                          > > > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids
                          > burning
                          > > >out
                          > > > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own
                          > infrastructure?
                          > > >You have
                          > > > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were
                          perhaps
                          > > >more
                          > > > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what
                          amounted
                          > to
                          > > >a death
                          > > > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                          > > >understanding of
                          > > > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder. Tammany
                          > was
                          > > >at least
                          > > > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine ultimately.
                          > The
                          > > >Irish day
                          > > > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were ten
                          > > >thousand men
                          > > > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany success,
                          and
                          > > >the
                          > > > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally even
                          > into
                          > > >the
                          > > > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no such
                          > > >excuse. He
                          > > > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a well-
                          > known
                          > > >lawyer
                          > > > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th
                          > century
                          > > >anarchist
                          > > > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the
                          Unibomber.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I don't.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes through
                          as
                          > > >Rutertoot.
                          > > > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith?
                          > Couldn't
                          > > >people at
                          > > > > least use a first name?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -- Kirby
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                          > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the Sorbonne.
                          > When
                          > > > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in 1968,
                          I
                          > felt
                          > > > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that older
                          > > >friends
                          > > > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years ago
                          I
                          > > >spent a
                          > > > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern
                          > France and
                          > > > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the current
                          > rioting
                          > > > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm
                          > separating me
                          > > >from
                          > > > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • mandreox
                          In Rembrandt s Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer at the Met, Aristotle is clearly whispering doh! Charles Doria may inded be alive. Ezra Pound
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 12, 2005
                            In Rembrandt's "Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer" at the
                            Met, Aristotle is clearly whispering "doh!"

                            Charles Doria may inded be alive. Ezra Pound wrote two fascist cantos
                            in Italian; James Laughlin of New Directions wanted to suppress them.
                            I gave the texts to Charley and he translated them into English for
                            Unmuzzled OX. Charles Doria and Victor Bers have an amazing facility
                            with languages. Victor at dinner one night improvised the Sonneti
                            spahetti y fageti di Michelangelo.

                            --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, souvienstoidemoublier
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think that if you had been an avid enough viewer of the Simpsons,
                            > you would already know that for many people to understand Homer,
                            they
                            > have to drink Duff Beer.
                            >
                            > Is your friend still alive?
                            >
                            > It looks like he translated and edited at least one work of
                            Giordano
                            > Bruno, who was an influence on Joyce's "Finnegans Wake", if I
                            remember
                            > right.
                            >
                            > --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria.
                            Charley
                            > > D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his
                            > > undergraduate work in classics at Harvard and then did his
                            graduate
                            > > work at SUNY-Buffalo under (could this be right?) Charles Olson.
                            I
                            > > love Charley D. but he is an alcoholic paranoid. He had been
                            fired
                            > > from a classics job in Austin, moved to New York, and undertook
                            to
                            > > teach me Homer using a marvelous textbook, Clyde Pharr's Homeric
                            > > Greek. The price for my lessons? Whatever alcohol we consumed at
                            > > Whatever Bar or Restaurant. This went on merrily for some months
                            > > until Charley discovered I was his enemy. Gradually he discovered
                            > > that everyone in New York was his enemy and disappeared. Then,
                            > > through one of my own ill-fated marriages, I got to know Victor
                            > Bers,
                            > > a distinguished Hellenist at Yale. Victor had the usual contempt
                            for
                            > > his own undergraduate students but he didn`t quibble with my
                            > readings
                            > > of Homer. Thus it felt sadly like a door closing when, in the
                            course
                            > > of divorcing Victor's sister-in-law, Clyde too for some years
                            > > vanished.
                            > >
                            > > Now thanks to Amazon Clyde is back in my life. My other favorite
                            > > books are the Loeb bilingual edition and Alexander Pope's Iliad.
                            > >
                            > > The Greek language is still evolving. The Greek New Testament
                            falls
                            > > between Homer and the current demotic spoken in Athens.
                            > >
                            > > --Michael Andre
                            > >
                            > > --- "Kirby Olson" wrote:
                            > > I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in
                            > > English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched
                            thirty
                            > > kids in the Myth
                            > > > class through it. About half were inner city kids from the
                            five
                            > > boroughs.
                            > > > They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes
                            > > unless they
                            > > > kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit
                            in
                            > > class and
                            > > > read their books during class time because they refused to read
                            > > outside of
                            > > > class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They
                            started
                            > > a wild
                            > > > discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and so
                            > > on. I
                            > > > suppose that too is a kind of riot.
                            > > >
                            > > > Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless as
                            > > Cyclops.
                            > > > Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker
                            of
                            > > Cities.
                            > > > Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not
                            > > provide
                            > > > hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually
                            eats
                            > > the
                            > > > strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem
                            about
                            > > how unwise
                            > > > it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite
                            > > wonderful, though.
                            > > >
                            > > > I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers
                            that
                            > > purported
                            > > > to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to
                            my
                            > > pastor, and
                            > > > he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it.
                            > He's
                            > > teaching
                            > > > them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.
                            > > >
                            > > > Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King
                            > > beating is
                            > > > even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and
                            order.
                            > > >
                            > > > The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the
                            most
                            > > terrifying
                            > > > on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political
                            > > prisoner and
                            > > > give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a
                            party
                            > > of
                            > > > Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or
                            worse,
                            > > but I
                            > > > think our constitutional protections are still so strong that
                            it's
                            > > not
                            > > > possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.
                            > > >
                            > > > -- Kirby
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                            > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                            > > > >
                            > > > >College students at the City University of New York were
                            boring
                            > and
                            > > > >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light
                            of
                            > > the
                            > > > >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old
                            > friends.
                            > > > >But I quit teaching college English because my students had
                            more
                            > to
                            > > > >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing
                            to
                            > > teach
                            > > > >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually,
                            > > during
                            > > > >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of
                            Amazon I
                            > > > >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at
                            Baruch.
                            > > > >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some
                            > complex
                            > > > >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the
                            A
                            > he
                            > > > >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he
                            were
                            > > in
                            > > > >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the
                            Iliad.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson"
                            > > <kirbyolson2@h...>
                            > > > >wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim
                            students,
                            > but
                            > > > >they're
                            > > > > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak
                            > English,
                            > > and
                            > > > >they are
                            > > > > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea
                            what
                            > > > >college is, or
                            > > > > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they
                            think
                            > > the
                            > > > >whole
                            > > > > > world is corrupt and that only military power really
                            matters,
                            > > and
                            > > > >that books
                            > > > > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very
                            > > hard to
                            > > > >dent
                            > > > > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and
                            they
                            > > are
                            > > > >more or
                            > > > > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                            > > > >outward
                            > > > > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that
                            > the
                            > > > >world is
                            > > > > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't
                            respect
                            > > the
                            > > > >law of
                            > > > > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal
                            > with.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                            > > > >doesn't matter.
                            > > > > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                            > > smokestack
                            > > > >in the
                            > > > > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam
                            > ever
                            > > > >since and is
                            > > > > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from
                            public
                            > > park
                            > > > >to
                            > > > > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                            > > > >contact me
                            > > > > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                            > > > >conspiracy to
                            > > > > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If
                            > you're
                            > > > >going to do
                            > > > > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of
                            my
                            > > > >oldest
                            > > > > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for
                            some
                            > > > >vigilante
                            > > > > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                            > > > >effort. He's
                            > > > > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to
                            plant
                            > > signs.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I
                            > don't
                            > > > >even know
                            > > > > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I
                            want
                            > > > >people to
                            > > > > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids
                            > > burning
                            > > > >out
                            > > > > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own
                            > > infrastructure?
                            > > > >You have
                            > > > > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were
                            > perhaps
                            > > > >more
                            > > > > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what
                            > amounted
                            > > to
                            > > > >a death
                            > > > > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                            > > > >understanding of
                            > > > > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder.
                            Tammany
                            > > was
                            > > > >at least
                            > > > > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine
                            ultimately.
                            > > The
                            > > > >Irish day
                            > > > > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were
                            ten
                            > > > >thousand men
                            > > > > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany
                            success,
                            > and
                            > > > >the
                            > > > > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally
                            even
                            > > into
                            > > > >the
                            > > > > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no
                            such
                            > > > >excuse. He
                            > > > > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a
                            well-
                            > > known
                            > > > >lawyer
                            > > > > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th
                            > > century
                            > > > >anarchist
                            > > > > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the
                            > Unibomber.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I don't.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes
                            through
                            > as
                            > > > >Rutertoot.
                            > > > > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith?
                            > > Couldn't
                            > > > >people at
                            > > > > > least use a first name?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > -- Kirby
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                            > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the
                            Sorbonne.
                            > > When
                            > > > > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in
                            1968,
                            > I
                            > > felt
                            > > > > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that
                            older
                            > > > >friends
                            > > > > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years
                            ago
                            > I
                            > > > >spent a
                            > > > > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern
                            > > France and
                            > > > > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the
                            current
                            > > rioting
                            > > > > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm
                            > > separating me
                            > > > >from
                            > > > > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Kirby Olson
                            I struggled with French at first but then I got it. I learned German and Dutch but then forgot them. I should learn Greek. I listen to Finnish all day in my
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 12, 2005
                              I struggled with French at first but then I got it. I learned German and
                              Dutch but then forgot them. I should learn Greek. I listen to Finnish all
                              day in my house. My wife speaks it with three kids. I can generally follow
                              it but there are several vowels I can't pronounce. I can dimly recognize
                              their boundaries but can't reproduce them accurately. When I first met my
                              father in law I tried to tell him that my mother collected pictures of owls
                              (this was to show that we are a cultured family, I guess) but it came out
                              that my mother collects pictures of naked asses. The difference was between
                              pulluu and pollo, which I still cant reliably distinguish.

                              The Finns for their part make b's that sound like p's, and z's that sound
                              like s's, and they mostly can't distinguish between v and f, and a few
                              others. The funniest part for them is that their sentences trail downwards
                              so that the sentences seem to trail off.

                              "I'm having a very good day," -- with day as much more deeply voiced and
                              down in the belly, it makes them sound depressed to our ear. While we sound
                              silly and menacingly upbeat to their ear, maniacally giddy.

                              -- Kirby


                              >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Re: Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek (Cyclops)
                              >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:44:24 -0000
                              >
                              >In Rembrandt's "Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer" at the
                              >Met, Aristotle is clearly whispering "doh!"
                              >
                              >Charles Doria may inded be alive. Ezra Pound wrote two fascist cantos
                              >in Italian; James Laughlin of New Directions wanted to suppress them.
                              >I gave the texts to Charley and he translated them into English for
                              >Unmuzzled OX. Charles Doria and Victor Bers have an amazing facility
                              >with languages. Victor at dinner one night improvised the Sonneti
                              >spahetti y fageti di Michelangelo.
                              >
                              >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, souvienstoidemoublier
                              ><no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think that if you had been an avid enough viewer of the Simpsons,
                              > > you would already know that for many people to understand Homer,
                              >they
                              > > have to drink Duff Beer.
                              > >
                              > > Is your friend still alive?
                              > >
                              > > It looks like he translated and edited at least one work of
                              >Giordano
                              > > Bruno, who was an influence on Joyce's "Finnegans Wake", if I
                              >remember
                              > > right.
                              > >
                              > > --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria.
                              >Charley
                              > > > D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his
                              > > > undergraduate work in classics at Harvard and then did his
                              >graduate
                              > > > work at SUNY-Buffalo under (could this be right?) Charles Olson.
                              >I
                              > > > love Charley D. but he is an alcoholic paranoid. He had been
                              >fired
                              > > > from a classics job in Austin, moved to New York, and undertook
                              >to
                              > > > teach me Homer using a marvelous textbook, Clyde Pharr's Homeric
                              > > > Greek. The price for my lessons? Whatever alcohol we consumed at
                              > > > Whatever Bar or Restaurant. This went on merrily for some months
                              > > > until Charley discovered I was his enemy. Gradually he discovered
                              > > > that everyone in New York was his enemy and disappeared. Then,
                              > > > through one of my own ill-fated marriages, I got to know Victor
                              > > Bers,
                              > > > a distinguished Hellenist at Yale. Victor had the usual contempt
                              >for
                              > > > his own undergraduate students but he didn`t quibble with my
                              > > readings
                              > > > of Homer. Thus it felt sadly like a door closing when, in the
                              >course
                              > > > of divorcing Victor's sister-in-law, Clyde too for some years
                              > > > vanished.
                              > > >
                              > > > Now thanks to Amazon Clyde is back in my life. My other favorite
                              > > > books are the Loeb bilingual edition and Alexander Pope's Iliad.
                              > > >
                              > > > The Greek language is still evolving. The Greek New Testament
                              >falls
                              > > > between Homer and the current demotic spoken in Athens.
                              > > >
                              > > > --Michael Andre
                              > > >
                              > > > --- "Kirby Olson" wrote:
                              > > > I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in
                              > > > English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched
                              >thirty
                              > > > kids in the Myth
                              > > > > class through it. About half were inner city kids from the
                              >five
                              > > > boroughs.
                              > > > > They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes
                              > > > unless they
                              > > > > kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit
                              >in
                              > > > class and
                              > > > > read their books during class time because they refused to read
                              > > > outside of
                              > > > > class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They
                              >started
                              > > > a wild
                              > > > > discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and so
                              > > > on. I
                              > > > > suppose that too is a kind of riot.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless as
                              > > > Cyclops.
                              > > > > Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker
                              >of
                              > > > Cities.
                              > > > > Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not
                              > > > provide
                              > > > > hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually
                              >eats
                              > > > the
                              > > > > strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem
                              >about
                              > > > how unwise
                              > > > > it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite
                              > > > wonderful, though.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers
                              >that
                              > > > purported
                              > > > > to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to
                              >my
                              > > > pastor, and
                              > > > > he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it.
                              > > He's
                              > > > teaching
                              > > > > them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King
                              > > > beating is
                              > > > > even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and
                              >order.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the
                              >most
                              > > > terrifying
                              > > > > on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political
                              > > > prisoner and
                              > > > > give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a
                              >party
                              > > > of
                              > > > > Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or
                              >worse,
                              > > > but I
                              > > > > think our constitutional protections are still so strong that
                              >it's
                              > > > not
                              > > > > possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -- Kirby
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                              > > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >College students at the City University of New York were
                              >boring
                              > > and
                              > > > > >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light
                              >of
                              > > > the
                              > > > > >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old
                              > > friends.
                              > > > > >But I quit teaching college English because my students had
                              >more
                              > > to
                              > > > > >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing
                              >to
                              > > > teach
                              > > > > >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually,
                              > > > during
                              > > > > >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of
                              >Amazon I
                              > > > > >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at
                              >Baruch.
                              > > > > >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some
                              > > complex
                              > > > > >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the
                              >A
                              > > he
                              > > > > >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he
                              >were
                              > > > in
                              > > > > >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the
                              >Iliad.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson"
                              > > > <kirbyolson2@h...>
                              > > > > >wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim
                              >students,
                              > > but
                              > > > > >they're
                              > > > > > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak
                              > > English,
                              > > > and
                              > > > > >they are
                              > > > > > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea
                              >what
                              > > > > >college is, or
                              > > > > > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they
                              >think
                              > > > the
                              > > > > >whole
                              > > > > > > world is corrupt and that only military power really
                              >matters,
                              > > > and
                              > > > > >that books
                              > > > > > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's very
                              > > > hard to
                              > > > > >dent
                              > > > > > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and
                              >they
                              > > > are
                              > > > > >more or
                              > > > > > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language or
                              > > > > >outward
                              > > > > > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind that
                              > > the
                              > > > > >world is
                              > > > > > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't
                              >respect
                              > > > the
                              > > > > >law of
                              > > > > > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal
                              > > with.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That law
                              > > > > >doesn't matter.
                              > > > > > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                              > > > smokestack
                              > > > > >in the
                              > > > > > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam
                              > > ever
                              > > > > >since and is
                              > > > > > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from
                              >public
                              > > > park
                              > > > > >to
                              > > > > > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him to
                              > > > > >contact me
                              > > > > > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                              > > > > >conspiracy to
                              > > > > > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If
                              > > you're
                              > > > > >going to do
                              > > > > > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of
                              >my
                              > > > > >oldest
                              > > > > > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for
                              >some
                              > > > > >vigilante
                              > > > > > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for his
                              > > > > >effort. He's
                              > > > > > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to
                              >plant
                              > > > signs.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I
                              > > don't
                              > > > > >even know
                              > > > > > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I
                              >want
                              > > > > >people to
                              > > > > > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids
                              > > > burning
                              > > > > >out
                              > > > > > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own
                              > > > infrastructure?
                              > > > > >You have
                              > > > > > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were
                              > > perhaps
                              > > > > >more
                              > > > > > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what
                              > > amounted
                              > > > to
                              > > > > >a death
                              > > > > > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had no
                              > > > > >understanding of
                              > > > > > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder.
                              >Tammany
                              > > > was
                              > > > > >at least
                              > > > > > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine
                              >ultimately.
                              > > > The
                              > > > > >Irish day
                              > > > > > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were
                              >ten
                              > > > > >thousand men
                              > > > > > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany
                              >success,
                              > > and
                              > > > > >the
                              > > > > > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally
                              >even
                              > > > into
                              > > > > >the
                              > > > > > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no
                              >such
                              > > > > >excuse. He
                              > > > > > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a
                              >well-
                              > > > known
                              > > > > >lawyer
                              > > > > > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th
                              > > > century
                              > > > > >anarchist
                              > > > > > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the
                              > > Unibomber.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I don't.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes
                              >through
                              > > as
                              > > > > >Rutertoot.
                              > > > > > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith?
                              > > > Couldn't
                              > > > > >people at
                              > > > > > > least use a first name?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > -- Kirby
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                              > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the
                              >Sorbonne.
                              > > > When
                              > > > > > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in
                              >1968,
                              > > I
                              > > > felt
                              > > > > > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that
                              >older
                              > > > > >friends
                              > > > > > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years
                              >ago
                              > > I
                              > > > > >spent a
                              > > > > > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern
                              > > > France and
                              > > > > > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the
                              >current
                              > > > rioting
                              > > > > > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm
                              > > > separating me
                              > > > > >from
                              > > > > > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • souvienstoidemoublier
                              We were asked to pastiche a modern poet in a modern poetry class, I did some Re-Cantos by Pound, in which he recants, but includes some Occitan or Provencal or
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 12, 2005
                                We were asked to pastiche a modern poet in a modern poetry class, I
                                did some Re-Cantos by Pound, in which he recants, but includes some
                                Occitan or Provencal or Basque or some sort of thing, wasn't there
                                some dude named Bertran or Bertrand Born.

                                Are you saying that Michelangelo ate spaghetti with gays . . . I am
                                really pretty unworldly, I guess.

                                --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > In Rembrandt's "Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer" at the
                                > Met, Aristotle is clearly whispering "doh!"
                                >
                                > Charles Doria may inded be alive. Ezra Pound wrote two fascist
                                cantos
                                > in Italian; James Laughlin of New Directions wanted to suppress
                                them.
                                > I gave the texts to Charley and he translated them into English for
                                > Unmuzzled OX. Charles Doria and Victor Bers have an amazing facility
                                > with languages. Victor at dinner one night improvised the Sonneti
                                > spahetti y fageti di Michelangelo.
                                >
                                > --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, souvienstoidemoublier
                                > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I think that if you had been an avid enough viewer of the
                                Simpsons,
                                > > you would already know that for many people to understand Homer,
                                > they
                                > > have to drink Duff Beer.
                                > >
                                > > Is your friend still alive?
                                > >
                                > > It looks like he translated and edited at least one work of
                                > Giordano
                                > > Bruno, who was an influence on Joyce's "Finnegans Wake", if I
                                > remember
                                > > right.
                                > >
                                > > --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, mandreox <no_reply@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > For some years I had a lucky friendship with Charles Doria.
                                > Charley
                                > > > D. was a well-known poet, editor and translator. He did his
                                > > > undergraduate work in classics at Harvard and then did his
                                > graduate
                                > > > work at SUNY-Buffalo under (could this be right?) Charles Olson.

                                > I
                                > > > love Charley D. but he is an alcoholic paranoid. He had been
                                > fired
                                > > > from a classics job in Austin, moved to New York, and undertook
                                > to
                                > > > teach me Homer using a marvelous textbook, Clyde Pharr's Homeric
                                > > > Greek. The price for my lessons? Whatever alcohol we consumed at
                                > > > Whatever Bar or Restaurant. This went on merrily for some months
                                > > > until Charley discovered I was his enemy. Gradually he
                                discovered
                                > > > that everyone in New York was his enemy and disappeared. Then,
                                > > > through one of my own ill-fated marriages, I got to know Victor
                                > > Bers,
                                > > > a distinguished Hellenist at Yale. Victor had the usual contempt
                                > for
                                > > > his own undergraduate students but he didn`t quibble with my
                                > > readings
                                > > > of Homer. Thus it felt sadly like a door closing when, in the
                                > course
                                > > > of divorcing Victor's sister-in-law, Clyde too for some years
                                > > > vanished.
                                > > >
                                > > > Now thanks to Amazon Clyde is back in my life. My other favorite
                                > > > books are the Loeb bilingual edition and Alexander Pope's Iliad.
                                > > >
                                > > > The Greek language is still evolving. The Greek New Testament
                                > falls
                                > > > between Homer and the current demotic spoken in Athens.
                                > > >
                                > > > --Michael Andre
                                > > >
                                > > > --- "Kirby Olson" wrote:
                                > > > I wish I could read ancient Greek. I just reread the Iliad (in
                                > > > English) using the Albert Cook translation. I force-marched
                                > thirty
                                > > > kids in the Myth
                                > > > > class through it. About half were inner city kids from the
                                > five
                                > > > boroughs.
                                > > > > They resisted. I kept marching them, failing them on quizzes
                                > > > unless they
                                > > > > kept up. It was a brutal campaign. One week I made them sit
                                > in
                                > > > class and
                                > > > > read their books during class time because they refused to
                                read
                                > > > outside of
                                > > > > class. One day I asked them what they did at night. They
                                > started
                                > > > a wild
                                > > > > discussion of getting blind drunk and running into trees and
                                so
                                > > > on. I
                                > > > > suppose that too is a kind of riot.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Odysseus is himself a riot. Agamemnon is clearly as lawless
                                as
                                > > > Cyclops.
                                > > > > Odysseus is not far behind.He keeps getting called The Sacker
                                > of
                                > > > Cities.
                                > > > > Cyclops is the most completely lawless. Not only does he not
                                > > > provide
                                > > > > hospitality in the form of food to strangers, but he actually
                                > eats
                                > > > the
                                > > > > strangers. He deserves to be blinded. Corso's great poem
                                > about
                                > > > how unwise
                                > > > > it was for Odysseus to put out an immortal's eye is quite
                                > > > wonderful, though.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I wish I could read Greek. I found a stack of Greek primers
                                > that
                                > > > purported
                                > > > > to teach you how to read St. Paul's Greek, but I gave them to
                                > my
                                > > > pastor, and
                                > > > > he gave them to some high school kids who wanted to learn it.
                                > > He's
                                > > > teaching
                                > > > > them. I should learn it, but am working on Finnish.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Lawlessness on the part of the police as with the Rodney King
                                > > > beating is
                                > > > > even more terrifying. Then there's nothing left of law and
                                > order.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Chinese government's Cyclopsean viewpoint is perhaps the
                                > most
                                > > > terrifying
                                > > > > on earth. The party will take the heart out of a political
                                > > > prisoner and
                                > > > > give it to a party official in a surgical transfer. It's a
                                > party
                                > > > of
                                > > > > Cyclopses. Some say that Bush and Rove are like this, or
                                > worse,
                                > > > but I
                                > > > > think our constitutional protections are still so strong that
                                > it's
                                > > > not
                                > > > > possible or even thinkable. In China, it's everyday practice.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -- Kirby
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] Dumb Kids
                                > > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:29:26 -0000
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >College students at the City University of New York were
                                > boring
                                > > and
                                > > > > >dumb. When I was a student, my friends seemed to be the light
                                > of
                                > > > the
                                > > > > >world. I am now amazed at my 15-year-old son's 15-year-old
                                > > friends.
                                > > > > >But I quit teaching college English because my students had
                                > more
                                > > to
                                > > > > >learn than I could teach them and I thought they had nothing
                                > to
                                > > > teach
                                > > > > >me. Right after quitting, I began to study Homer. Eventually,
                                > > > during
                                > > > > >my divorce, my Greek texts vanished; but now courtesy of
                                > Amazon I
                                > > > > >have a new set. I recall one particular Greek student at
                                > Baruch.
                                > > > > >He would misuse Greek cognates, pick a fancy word for some
                                > > complex
                                > > > > >idea he utterly misunderstood. I gave him a B instead of the
                                > A
                                > > he
                                > > > > >wanted. Maybe he eventually saw his problem. Today I wish he
                                > were
                                > > > in
                                > > > > >this room and able to read aloud to me the opening of the
                                > Iliad.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >--- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, "Kirby Olson"
                                > > > <kirbyolson2@h...>
                                > > > > >wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Michael, what are you saying? I have a few Muslim
                                > students,
                                > > but
                                > > > > >they're
                                > > > > > > from Africa. Two from Liberia. They can barely speak
                                > > English,
                                > > > and
                                > > > > >they are
                                > > > > > > lazy as hell. I have the feeling that they have no idea
                                > what
                                > > > > >college is, or
                                > > > > > > what they are doing in one. I get the feeling that they
                                > think
                                > > > the
                                > > > > >whole
                                > > > > > > world is corrupt and that only military power really
                                > matters,
                                > > > and
                                > > > > >that books
                                > > > > > > are just some kind of laugh riot for the stupid. It's
                                very
                                > > > hard to
                                > > > > >dent
                                > > > > > > this mentality. I have a few students from Pakistan and
                                > they
                                > > > are
                                > > > > >more or
                                > > > > > > less the same way. I don't think it's just body language
                                or
                                > > > > >outward
                                > > > > > > manifestation. It's a deeply held belief of some kind
                                that
                                > > the
                                > > > > >world is
                                > > > > > > hopelessly corrupt. I get the feeling that they don't
                                > respect
                                > > > the
                                > > > > >law of
                                > > > > > > any country or of anything. It's very hard for me to deal
                                > > with.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > There is a growing sense of this in the left, too. That
                                law
                                > > > > >doesn't matter.
                                > > > > > > I have a close friend who blew up an arsenic producing
                                > > > smokestack
                                > > > > >in the
                                > > > > > > Florida everglades about 8 years ago. He's been on the lam
                                > > ever
                                > > > > >since and is
                                > > > > > > now living in a station wagon in the Sierras going from
                                > public
                                > > > park
                                > > > > >to
                                > > > > > > public park, living on his inheritance. I don't want him
                                to
                                > > > > >contact me
                                > > > > > > because I don't want to be seen as being in on any kind of
                                > > > > >conspiracy to
                                > > > > > > hide him from the law. I don't respect what he did. If
                                > > you're
                                > > > > >going to do
                                > > > > > > something, you have to do it through the law. He's one of
                                > my
                                > > > > >oldest
                                > > > > > > friends, but he really pissed me off. He was working for
                                > some
                                > > > > >vigilante
                                > > > > > > Earthfirst! type outfit and was initially well-paid for
                                his
                                > > > > >effort. He's
                                > > > > > > also done things like climb up on aircraft carriers to
                                > plant
                                > > > signs.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > And now he does these other direct-action type things. I
                                > > don't
                                > > > > >even know
                                > > > > > > what to say to him any longer. He's so far out there. I
                                > want
                                > > > > >people to
                                > > > > > > stay within the law. The French ruckus -- these dumb kids
                                > > > burning
                                > > > > >out
                                > > > > > > school busses. Don't they know this is their own
                                > > > infrastructure?
                                > > > > >You have
                                > > > > > > to do things within the law. The Irish draft riots were
                                > > perhaps
                                > > > > >more
                                > > > > > > understandable as it was an immediate response to what
                                > > amounted
                                > > > to
                                > > > > >a death
                                > > > > > > sentence if they were drafted into a cause that they had
                                no
                                > > > > >understanding of
                                > > > > > > whatsoever and they were being used as cannon fodder.
                                > Tammany
                                > > > was
                                > > > > >at least
                                > > > > > > legal even if it was a completely corrupt machine
                                > ultimately.
                                > > > The
                                > > > > >Irish day
                                > > > > > > laborers who built Central Park in Manhattan -- there were
                                > ten
                                > > > > >thousand men
                                > > > > > > employed by that park at one point -- was a Tammany
                                > success,
                                > > and
                                > > > > >the
                                > > > > > > beginning of bringing the irish into the law, and finally
                                > even
                                > > > into
                                > > > > >the
                                > > > > > > police force. As I see it my friend in California has no
                                > such
                                > > > > >excuse. He
                                > > > > > > was raised in a wealthy family in which his father was a
                                > well-
                                > > > known
                                > > > > >lawyer
                                > > > > > > in the Bay area. He just seems to be playing out the 19th
                                > > > century
                                > > > > >anarchist
                                > > > > > > Bakunin and co. It's all a big game. He admires the
                                > > Unibomber.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I don't.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Hello to John. Now we have a name. Rutertoot comes
                                > through
                                > > as
                                > > > > >Rutertoot.
                                > > > > > > could we have just a first name? and who is this Smith?
                                > > > Couldn't
                                > > > > >people at
                                > > > > > > least use a first name?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > -- Kirby
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >From: mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > > > >Reply-To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > >To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > > > >Subject: [Unmuzzled Ox] The French Ruckus
                                > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:49:11 -0000
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >For two months in 1967 I lived two blocks from the
                                > Sorbonne.
                                > > > When
                                > > > > > > >France erupted in protest and essentially shut down in
                                > 1968,
                                > > I
                                > > > felt
                                > > > > > > >confidant that I understood what was going on and that
                                > older
                                > > > > >friends
                                > > > > > > >and mentors were contributing to the ruckus. A few years
                                > ago
                                > > I
                                > > > > >spent a
                                > > > > > > >couple of days in an Arab area of Thionville in eastern
                                > > > France and
                                > > > > > > >then last year I wrote about Saint-Denis--where the
                                > current
                                > > > rioting
                                > > > > > > >began. This time, however, I was struck by the chasm
                                > > > separating me
                                > > > > >from
                                > > > > > > >these folks. We even speak a different body language.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Kirby Olson
                                Time Magazine on November 14 reports on the French riots and has a hip hop rap star who lives in one of the blighted cities adjacent to Paris who says that he
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 14, 2005
                                  Time Magazine on November 14 reports on the French riots and has a hip hop
                                  rap star who lives in one of the blighted cities adjacent to Paris who says
                                  that he is French, and Islamic, and he isn't going anywhere, so you might as
                                  well get used to him.

                                  I remember the paintings of the communards being killed by lines of French
                                  soldiers in the late 1800s.

                                  The French police are now unable to do anything -- a hundred and thirty
                                  years later.

                                  The Finns have been quite clever in limiting immigration. They let in 30
                                  people a year, mostly from Sweden.

                                  -- Kirby
                                  >
                                  >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.