RE: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church
- "Secretary" isn't an S&M movie....it tries to explore the world of a
"submissive" women and the "dominant" male (an attorney no less) that
unlocks her "potential". These two fetishes overlap in places but
receiving/giving pain is not the theme, it's submitting/dominating.
[mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Kirby Olson
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church
The strictures against homosexuality probably originally derived
fact that Nero (who was bisexual I think or maybe just gay)
Paul and St. James (this was Christ's older brother) upside down
Along with thousands of other Christians.
The ethos of service between one man and one woman and devotion
was posited against the paradigm of lord and vassal, and the
But now you still see a lot of psychiatric discourse among
journalists having to do with the idea that gay people are stuck
in an anal
phase. And that they are therefore immature. This kind of
thing can't be
proved I think because psychology is just guess work. It's not
Foucault fulminated against this kind of thing, but then he also
child molestation in the history of sexuality -- part one -- pp.
he says that child prostitution for girls is no big deal, and it
kids fed, which is good.
The Christian right doesn't appear to read Foucault or Derrida
except for a few scholars such as David Bently HArt who does
He's Eastern Orthodox and it seems to me very anti-semitic. He
Levinas of all people and accuses him of being a Gnostic. He
was a fairly
devout rather orthodox Jew who was married all his life to one
about whom no one much has even complained.
I don't think anybody in the Christian faith cares about
lesbians, by the
way. I just don't think that what they do seems to matter. It's
And this is hard to pin down.
On another tangent -- Corso did do men according to one anecdote
I got. He
had what is called a catamite in Paris. A little blond boy. He
him at Shakespeare & Co. according to a report just in from a
guy in Chicago
who is an Oulipo fanatic.
I had never heard this before.
Corso always claimed in public to have never slept with
Ginsberg, but it's
pretty clear that he did when he was hard up and just out of
On another tangent -- I saw a film called Secretary with James
SPader and a
Welsh sounding named woman. It was S & M. It appeared to mix
Dionysian desire paradigm with the ethos of service to one
create a very volatile mixture. A couple of wives were talking
about it in
the local library the other morning. "Try that movie with your
see what happens." They both giggled.
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- Warren, since pain is used in the submission/domination scenario, how or why
would you separate them?
Is pain without meaning in traditional S & M rather than part of a larger
discourse between the partners having to do with submission and domination?
I don't think the pain is without meaning in either scenario. So is there
another scenario besides submission/domination?
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