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RE: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church

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  • Warren Woessner
    Secretary isn t an S&M movie....it tries to explore the world of a submissive women and the dominant male (an attorney no less) that unlocks her
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 13, 2005
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      "Secretary" isn't an S&M movie....it tries to explore the world of a
      "submissive" women and the "dominant" male (an attorney no less) that
      unlocks her "potential". These two fetishes overlap in places but
      receiving/giving pain is not the theme, it's submitting/dominating.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirby Olson
      Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:03 AM
      To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church



      The strictures against homosexuality probably originally derived
      from the
      fact that Nero (who was bisexual I think or maybe just gay)
      crucified St.
      Paul and St. James (this was Christ's older brother) upside down
      in Rome.
      Along with thousands of other Christians.

      The ethos of service between one man and one woman and devotion
      to family
      was posited against the paradigm of lord and vassal, and the
      notion of
      pleasure.

      But now you still see a lot of psychiatric discourse among
      Christian
      journalists having to do with the idea that gay people are stuck
      in an anal
      phase. And that they are therefore immature. This kind of
      thing can't be
      proved I think because psychology is just guess work. It's not
      a science.
      Foucault fulminated against this kind of thing, but then he also
      trivializes
      child molestation in the history of sexuality -- part one -- pp.
      34-36 where
      he says that child prostitution for girls is no big deal, and it
      does get
      kids fed, which is good.

      The Christian right doesn't appear to read Foucault or Derrida
      or company
      except for a few scholars such as David Bently HArt who does
      read them.
      He's Eastern Orthodox and it seems to me very anti-semitic. He
      hates
      Levinas of all people and accuses him of being a Gnostic. He
      was a fairly
      devout rather orthodox Jew who was married all his life to one
      woman and
      about whom no one much has even complained.

      I don't think anybody in the Christian faith cares about
      lesbians, by the
      way. I just don't think that what they do seems to matter. It's
      the men.
      And this is hard to pin down.

      On another tangent -- Corso did do men according to one anecdote
      I got. He
      had what is called a catamite in Paris. A little blond boy. He
      slept with
      him at Shakespeare & Co. according to a report just in from a
      guy in Chicago
      who is an Oulipo fanatic.

      I had never heard this before.

      Corso always claimed in public to have never slept with
      Ginsberg, but it's
      pretty clear that he did when he was hard up and just out of
      prison.

      On another tangent -- I saw a film called Secretary with James
      SPader and a
      Welsh sounding named woman. It was S & M. It appeared to mix
      the explosive
      Dionysian desire paradigm with the ethos of service to one
      another, to
      create a very volatile mixture. A couple of wives were talking
      about it in
      the local library the other morning. "Try that movie with your
      husband, and
      see what happens." They both giggled.


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    • Kirby Olson
      Warren, since pain is used in the submission/domination scenario, how or why would you separate them? Is pain without meaning in traditional S & M rather than
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 13, 2005
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        Warren, since pain is used in the submission/domination scenario, how or why
        would you separate them?

        Is pain without meaning in traditional S & M rather than part of a larger
        discourse between the partners having to do with submission and domination?

        I don't think the pain is without meaning in either scenario. So is there
        another scenario besides submission/domination?

        -- Kirby

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