Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church

Expand Messages
  • Kirby Olson
    The strictures against homosexuality probably originally derived from the fact that Nero (who was bisexual I think or maybe just gay) crucified St. Paul and
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 13, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      The strictures against homosexuality probably originally derived from the
      fact that Nero (who was bisexual I think or maybe just gay) crucified St.
      Paul and St. James (this was Christ's older brother) upside down in Rome.
      Along with thousands of other Christians.

      The ethos of service between one man and one woman and devotion to family
      was posited against the paradigm of lord and vassal, and the notion of
      pleasure.

      But now you still see a lot of psychiatric discourse among Christian
      journalists having to do with the idea that gay people are stuck in an anal
      phase. And that they are therefore immature. This kind of thing can't be
      proved I think because psychology is just guess work. It's not a science.
      Foucault fulminated against this kind of thing, but then he also trivializes
      child molestation in the history of sexuality -- part one -- pp. 34-36 where
      he says that child prostitution for girls is no big deal, and it does get
      kids fed, which is good.

      The Christian right doesn't appear to read Foucault or Derrida or company
      except for a few scholars such as David Bently HArt who does read them.
      He's Eastern Orthodox and it seems to me very anti-semitic. He hates
      Levinas of all people and accuses him of being a Gnostic. He was a fairly
      devout rather orthodox Jew who was married all his life to one woman and
      about whom no one much has even complained.

      I don't think anybody in the Christian faith cares about lesbians, by the
      way. I just don't think that what they do seems to matter. It's the men.
      And this is hard to pin down.

      On another tangent -- Corso did do men according to one anecdote I got. He
      had what is called a catamite in Paris. A little blond boy. He slept with
      him at Shakespeare & Co. according to a report just in from a guy in Chicago
      who is an Oulipo fanatic.

      I had never heard this before.

      Corso always claimed in public to have never slept with Ginsberg, but it's
      pretty clear that he did when he was hard up and just out of prison.

      On another tangent -- I saw a film called Secretary with James SPader and a
      Welsh sounding named woman. It was S & M. It appeared to mix the explosive
      Dionysian desire paradigm with the ethos of service to one another, to
      create a very volatile mixture. A couple of wives were talking about it in
      the local library the other morning. "Try that movie with your husband, and
      see what happens." They both giggled.

      _________________________________________________________________
      FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
      http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
    • Warren Woessner
      Secretary isn t an S&M movie....it tries to explore the world of a submissive women and the dominant male (an attorney no less) that unlocks her
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 13, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        "Secretary" isn't an S&M movie....it tries to explore the world of a
        "submissive" women and the "dominant" male (an attorney no less) that
        unlocks her "potential". These two fetishes overlap in places but
        receiving/giving pain is not the theme, it's submitting/dominating.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirby Olson
        Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:03 AM
        To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Unmuzzled Ox] Sexuality and the Universal Church



        The strictures against homosexuality probably originally derived
        from the
        fact that Nero (who was bisexual I think or maybe just gay)
        crucified St.
        Paul and St. James (this was Christ's older brother) upside down
        in Rome.
        Along with thousands of other Christians.

        The ethos of service between one man and one woman and devotion
        to family
        was posited against the paradigm of lord and vassal, and the
        notion of
        pleasure.

        But now you still see a lot of psychiatric discourse among
        Christian
        journalists having to do with the idea that gay people are stuck
        in an anal
        phase. And that they are therefore immature. This kind of
        thing can't be
        proved I think because psychology is just guess work. It's not
        a science.
        Foucault fulminated against this kind of thing, but then he also
        trivializes
        child molestation in the history of sexuality -- part one -- pp.
        34-36 where
        he says that child prostitution for girls is no big deal, and it
        does get
        kids fed, which is good.

        The Christian right doesn't appear to read Foucault or Derrida
        or company
        except for a few scholars such as David Bently HArt who does
        read them.
        He's Eastern Orthodox and it seems to me very anti-semitic. He
        hates
        Levinas of all people and accuses him of being a Gnostic. He
        was a fairly
        devout rather orthodox Jew who was married all his life to one
        woman and
        about whom no one much has even complained.

        I don't think anybody in the Christian faith cares about
        lesbians, by the
        way. I just don't think that what they do seems to matter. It's
        the men.
        And this is hard to pin down.

        On another tangent -- Corso did do men according to one anecdote
        I got. He
        had what is called a catamite in Paris. A little blond boy. He
        slept with
        him at Shakespeare & Co. according to a report just in from a
        guy in Chicago
        who is an Oulipo fanatic.

        I had never heard this before.

        Corso always claimed in public to have never slept with
        Ginsberg, but it's
        pretty clear that he did when he was hard up and just out of
        prison.

        On another tangent -- I saw a film called Secretary with James
        SPader and a
        Welsh sounding named woman. It was S & M. It appeared to mix
        the explosive
        Dionysian desire paradigm with the ethos of service to one
        another, to
        create a very volatile mixture. A couple of wives were talking
        about it in
        the local library the other morning. "Try that movie with your
        husband, and
        see what happens." They both giggled.


        _________________________________________________________________
        FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
        http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/



        _____

        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



        * Visit your group "unmuzzledox
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unmuzzledox> " on the web.

        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        unmuzzledox-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:unmuzzledox-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

        * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


        _____




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kirby Olson
        Warren, since pain is used in the submission/domination scenario, how or why would you separate them? Is pain without meaning in traditional S & M rather than
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 13, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Warren, since pain is used in the submission/domination scenario, how or why
          would you separate them?

          Is pain without meaning in traditional S & M rather than part of a larger
          discourse between the partners having to do with submission and domination?

          I don't think the pain is without meaning in either scenario. So is there
          another scenario besides submission/domination?

          -- Kirby

          _________________________________________________________________
          Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
          http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.