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  • mandreox
    My son went to Trinity Lutheran elementary school on Staten Island. I liked services at their nineteenth century neo-Gothic church; they were surprisingly
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 9, 2005
      My son went to Trinity Lutheran elementary school on Staten Island. I
      liked services at their nineteenth century neo-Gothic church; they
      were surprisingly close to Catholic services. At one point I could
      tell Ben wasn't quite getting it about Lutherans. I asked him, Who
      was Martin Luther? "Martin Luther King freed the slaves," he answered
      without pause. I didn't know where to begin.

      For a year or so I went through an intense born-again Catholic phase.
      I spent a lot of time with such Catholic radicals as Daniel Berrigan;
      but my usual friends, especially my wife, thought I was nuts. A lot
      of the poems in Experiments in Banal Living are from that time:

      I go to church the way she smokes.
      It's irrational, I'd like to stop, but I can't.
      Doctrine, as
      `Christ lurks in the blue sky,'
      Burns slowly
      The body
      Down.
      Side effects include, if she's Jewish, divorce.
    • Kirby Olson
      Luther never intended to leave Catholicism, but only to get rid of the indulgences. He was an Augustinian monk who was shocked at the amount of money the pope
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 9, 2005
        Luther never intended to leave Catholicism, but only to get rid of the
        indulgences. He was an Augustinian monk who was shocked at the amount of
        money the pope was using to party in Rome. So he very cagily started an
        uprising. He made sure he had the backing of the powerful leaders of
        Germany, and the split survived. Lutherans are very much unlike the
        Calvinists, however. Calvinists for instance don't think there should be a
        religious art. Luther told his followers to stop smashing icons. One of
        Luther's close friends was Albrecht Durer. Another good friend was Lucas
        Cranach. He also allowed the priests to marry (the upshot of not allowing
        them to marry meant that they would fuck members of the congregation or each
        other) and he said that each person has direct access to Jesus. Unlike the
        Mennonites (whom Luther crushed at their inception but who survived in
        splinter forms esp. in Switzerland) Lutherans believe in war, capital
        punishment, and are permitted to masturbate, and there is total freedom of
        inquiry.

        I assume you were raised Catholic somewhere in Canada, Michael?

        I was lapsed for 20 years until my daughter was born. I was raised Lutheran
        first in Iowa and then in Eastern Pennsylvania, but I was always bugged by
        the strictness of it, and yet admired that, too. Then at the baptism (which
        I hated having to attend) the songs from my childhood slapped me clear back
        to Nazareth, and now I just love going again. It's been fun to slowly read
        Lutheran theology like Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr and to realize that
        in some horrible way I had never left the church at all, but had only
        thought that I had. It's like when Corso said, "Once a Catholic always a
        Catholic." One could put Lutheran into that sentence.

        Unlike your poem, Michael, my wife is Lutheran (although she is largely
        lapsed, or so she thinks). A lot of people marry Jews (Jews think they are
        lapsed) but they turn out to be Jews just the same. It's not just the nose.
        It's something deeper.

        I imagine that there are some true apostates who leave one religion for
        another (definition of apostate which is a capital crime in much of Islam)
        but I don't think there are very many who have completely made the leap from
        one faith to another. The childhood imagery is so strong. I remember
        singing Battle Hymn of the Republic as a kid and nearly crying over its
        force and bizarre power. It's the same thing now. The thing is that dada
        and surrealism and other art movements are a lot of fun and sometimes quite
        powerful, but even they -- when they reach into the deeper emotions -- are
        so tainted with the religious upbringing of their various members -- Breton
        for instance was a deep Catholic in childhood (his mother used to box his
        ears if he got his catechism wrong) and when he reaches for a powerful image
        it's Notre Dame of Paris, or Chartres, or the Madonna image. Soupault when
        he reaches for a deep image has one of hands folded in prayer, or angels.

        It's like a rubber band is tied around the waist and you can run as far as
        you like but at some point you will snap back to your point of origin or
        else you will be shot into outer space. Can you run from your childhood or
        even change it? Not without completely losing your orientation altogether.

        The big thing in the Lutheran church right now is whether or not we're going
        to ordain gay priests. It's about 50-50. I find all the fireworks over
        this question to be so absorbing! We're supposed to have the vote in about
        a month but the pro-gay side is losing its traction and wants to delay the
        vote. But the United Congregation of Christ just said gay priests were
        fine. And now their membership is hemorrhaging. I go back and forth on the
        question and am the point now of saying, no to ordination, basically because
        I don't think we know whether the male priests are going to harm the
        children or not. Some say yes, and some say no. I would rather not take a
        chance. If you get that kind of thing going in your denomination you can't
        buy insurance except at astronomical fees.

        I don't think anybody knows what it is to be gay. Even gay people don't
        really know. Nobody knows what sex is. Or sexual attraction. It's funny
        -- it doesn't appear to be biological, and yet it is. Does God have sex?
        Does he want it? Did Jesus want it? Why didn't he ever talk about wanting
        it, if he did? Why didn't he talk about how weird it is? When he talks
        about it, it seems to be in the third person. The Da Vinci code that I
        haven't read says he had children, I think I read somewhere. Dream on. I
        think the Gospels would have said something.

        -- Kirby

        >

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      • voxhaul@AOL.com
        I was raised in scotland as a very liberal Presbyterian in the Scottish church thern later studied with Chogyam Trungpa and Ginsberg at Naropa--consequently
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 11, 2005
          I was raised in scotland as a very liberal Presbyterian in the Scottish
          church thern later studied with Chogyam Trungpa and Ginsberg at
          Naropa--consequently became lovers with Allen and played guitar in his
          band--I now have many queer friends who are practicising buddhists but
          I have a problem with the buddhist leaders because of the gay
          dilemma--the Dali Lama says it is ok to be queer but not to practise it
          sexually so there I break with the religious side and can only embrace
          it as a mind practise and philosophy--so many of my friends live in a
          kind of bardo because of the Dalai Lama's edict--thay are sexually
          oriented in one way (for whatever reason one "ends up" whatever way--I
          believe that everyone is biologically both only bisexual but in fact
          omnisexual--that one can for example be atracted to an object
          (fetishism) or even an idea) but cannot express their love/affection
          fully which I find to be hypocritical on the Dalai's part--should we
          not love everyone in whatever way we can?

          when the Dali lama was interviewed recently he was asked if he had any
          regrets about his life and he simply pointed to his cock....he said
          that although he was glad to have lived a religious life that he
          sometimes wished he could experience the pleasures of the body like a
          regular guy--so he is acutely aware of this problem...

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Kirby Olson <kirbyolson2@...>
          To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:27:28 +0000
          Subject: RE: [Unmuzzled Ox] God

          Luther never intended to leave Catholicism, but only to get rid of
          the
          indulgences. He was an Augustinian monk who was shocked at the amount
          of
          money the pope was using to party in Rome. So he very cagily started
          an
          uprising. He made sure he had the backing of the powerful leaders of
          Germany, and the split survived. Lutherans are very much unlike the
          Calvinists, however. Calvinists for instance don't think there should
          be a
          religious art. Luther told his followers to stop smashing icons. One
          of
          Luther's close friends was Albrecht Durer. Another good friend was
          Lucas
          Cranach. He also allowed the priests to marry (the upshot of not
          allowing
          them to marry meant that they would fuck members of the congregation or
          each
          other) and he said that each person has direct access to Jesus. Unlike
          the
          Mennonites (whom Luther crushed at their inception but who survived in
          splinter forms esp. in Switzerland) Lutherans believe in war, capital
          punishment, and are permitted to masturbate, and there is total freedom
          of
          inquiry.

          I assume you were raised Catholic somewhere in Canada, Michael?

          I was lapsed for 20 years until my daughter was born. I was raised
          Lutheran
          first in Iowa and then in Eastern Pennsylvania, but I was always bugged
          by
          the strictness of it, and yet admired that, too. Then at the baptism
          (which
          I hated having to attend) the songs from my childhood slapped me clear
          back
          to Nazareth, and now I just love going again. It's been fun to slowly
          read
          Lutheran theology like Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr and to realize
          that
          in some horrible way I had never left the church at all, but had only
          thought that I had. It's like when Corso said, "Once a Catholic always
          a
          Catholic." One could put Lutheran into that sentence.

          Unlike your poem, Michael, my wife is Lutheran (although she is largely
          lapsed, or so she thinks). A lot of people marry Jews (Jews think they
          are
          lapsed) but they turn out to be Jews just the same. It's not just the
          nose.
          It's something deeper.

          I imagine that there are some true apostates who leave one religion for
          another (definition of apostate which is a capital crime in much of
          Islam)
          but I don't think there are very many who have completely made the leap
          from
          one faith to another. The childhood imagery is so strong. I remember
          singing Battle Hymn of the Republic as a kid and nearly crying over its
          force and bizarre power. It's the same thing now. The thing is that
          dada
          and surrealism and other art movements are a lot of fun and sometimes
          quite
          powerful, but even they -- when they reach into the deeper emotions --
          are
          so tainted with the religious upbringing of their various members --
          Breton
          for instance was a deep Catholic in childhood (his mother used to box
          his
          ears if he got his catechism wrong) and when he reaches for a powerful
          image
          it's Notre Dame of Paris, or Chartres, or the Madonna image. Soupault
          when
          he reaches for a deep image has one of hands folded in prayer, or
          angels.

          It's like a rubber band is tied around the waist and you can run as far
          as
          you like but at some point you will snap back to your point of origin
          or
          else you will be shot into outer space. Can you run from your
          childhood or
          even change it? Not without completely losing your orientation
          altogether.

          The big thing in the Lutheran church right now is whether or not we're
          going
          to ordain gay priests. It's about 50-50. I find all the fireworks
          over
          this question to be so absorbing! We're supposed to have the vote in
          about
          a month but the pro-gay side is losing its traction and wants to delay
          the
          vote. But the United Congregation of Christ just said gay priests were
          fine. And now their membership is hemorrhaging. I go back and forth
          on the
          question and am the point now of saying, no to ordination, basically
          because
          I don't think we know whether the male priests are going to harm the
          children or not. Some say yes, and some say no. I would rather not
          take a
          chance. If you get that kind of thing going in your denomination you
          can't
          buy insurance except at astronomical fees.

          I don't think anybody knows what it is to be gay. Even gay people
          don't
          really know. Nobody knows what sex is. Or sexual attraction. It's
          funny
          -- it doesn't appear to be biological, and yet it is. Does God have
          sex?
          Does he want it? Did Jesus want it? Why didn't he ever talk about
          wanting
          it, if he did? Why didn't he talk about how weird it is? When he
          talks
          about it, it seems to be in the third person. The Da Vinci code that I
          haven't read says he had children, I think I read somewhere. Dream on.
          I
          think the Gospels would have said something.

          -- Kirby

          >

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        • Kirby Olson
          Well, this is a very good response. The conservative Christian response which I m maybe 60% in agreement with is that God asked us to behave in one specific
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 12, 2005
            Well, this is a very good response. The conservative Christian response
            which I'm maybe 60% in agreement with is that God asked us to behave in one
            specific way. And it's his composition, not ours, or symphony, and we are
            supposed to play the part, rather than divert the score to our own um
            preferences.

            But then there's free will. Ahem. Satan. Ahem. Ahem.

            The questions that arise from this scheme are as enormous as the questions
            that arise around "tolerance." The funny part for me now is that as a more
            or less conservative Christian (but with a woolly avant-garde subtext -- I
            am much more steeped in THAt literature than in the conservative literature
            such as Augustine) is that now since tolerance includes even ahem me, I'm
            tolerated.

            So it's endless taxation for everyone now, but esp. me. I do think there
            have to be some limits, such as child molestation. I think most of the left
            and right agree on that score, and agree that there should be laws against
            international sex slaves (in spite of the pleasure that some get from this).

            But precisely what goes and what doesn't, what is actually endorsed by a
            society -- the border or boundary seems to be moving quite a bit since I was
            a teenager. Now blow jobs aren't even considered sex by at least one of the
            last three presidents. I doubt if most wives would agree with this, when
            they saw their husbands with another woman. But maybe most people don't
            care any longer??

            !

            -- Kirby

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          • mandreox
            It s summer, and tourists are wrecking the Staten Island ferry schedule. They won t get off, they pet the bomb dogs, and they can be bizarrely demanding.
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 27, 2005
              It's summer, and tourists are wrecking the Staten Island ferry
              schedule. They won't get off, they pet the bomb dogs, and they can be
              bizarrely demanding. Security adds to the lowly sailor's trouble.
              Whom do you prefer, I asked one sailor, tourists or terrorists?
              Terrorists, he answered, grinning. How do you tell difference? Kill
              them all, and let God sort it out.

              --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, voxhaul@A... wrote:
              > I was raised in scotland as a very liberal Presbyterian in the
              Scottish
              > church thern later studied with Chogyam Trungpa and Ginsberg at
              > Naropa--consequently became lovers with Allen and played guitar in
              his
              > band--I now have many queer friends who are practicising buddhists
              but
              > I have a problem with the buddhist leaders because of the gay
              > dilemma--the Dali Lama says it is ok to be queer but not to
              practise it
              > sexually so there I break with the religious side and can only
              embrace
              > it as a mind practise and philosophy--so many of my friends live in
              a
              > kind of bardo because of the Dalai Lama's edict--thay are sexually
              > oriented in one way (for whatever reason one "ends up" whatever way-
              -I
              > believe that everyone is biologically both only bisexual but in
              fact
              > omnisexual--that one can for example be atracted to an object
              > (fetishism) or even an idea) but cannot express their
              love/affection
              > fully which I find to be hypocritical on the Dalai's part--should
              we
              > not love everyone in whatever way we can?
              >
              > when the Dali lama was interviewed recently he was asked if he had
              any
              > regrets about his life and he simply pointed to his cock....he said
              > that although he was glad to have lived a religious life that he
              > sometimes wished he could experience the pleasures of the body like
              a
              > regular guy--so he is acutely aware of this problem...
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Kirby Olson <kirbyolson2@h...>
              > To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:27:28 +0000
              > Subject: RE: [Unmuzzled Ox] God
              >
              > Luther never intended to leave Catholicism, but only to get rid
              of
              > the
              > indulgences. He was an Augustinian monk who was shocked at the
              amount
              > of
              > money the pope was using to party in Rome. So he very cagily
              started
              > an
              > uprising. He made sure he had the backing of the powerful leaders
              of
              > Germany, and the split survived. Lutherans are very much unlike the
              > Calvinists, however. Calvinists for instance don't think there
              should
              > be a
              > religious art. Luther told his followers to stop smashing icons.
              One
              > of
              > Luther's close friends was Albrecht Durer. Another good friend was
              > Lucas
              > Cranach. He also allowed the priests to marry (the upshot of not
              > allowing
              > them to marry meant that they would fuck members of the
              congregation or
              > each
              > other) and he said that each person has direct access to Jesus.
              Unlike
              > the
              > Mennonites (whom Luther crushed at their inception but who survived
              in
              > splinter forms esp. in Switzerland) Lutherans believe in war,
              capital
              > punishment, and are permitted to masturbate, and there is total
              freedom
              > of
              > inquiry.
              >
              > I assume you were raised Catholic somewhere in Canada, Michael?
              >
              > I was lapsed for 20 years until my daughter was born. I was raised
              > Lutheran
              > first in Iowa and then in Eastern Pennsylvania, but I was always
              bugged
              > by
              > the strictness of it, and yet admired that, too. Then at the
              baptism
              > (which
              > I hated having to attend) the songs from my childhood slapped me
              clear
              > back
              > to Nazareth, and now I just love going again. It's been fun to
              slowly
              > read
              > Lutheran theology like Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr and to
              realize
              > that
              > in some horrible way I had never left the church at all, but had
              only
              > thought that I had. It's like when Corso said, "Once a Catholic
              always
              > a
              > Catholic." One could put Lutheran into that sentence.
              >
              > Unlike your poem, Michael, my wife is Lutheran (although she is
              largely
              > lapsed, or so she thinks). A lot of people marry Jews (Jews think
              they
              > are
              > lapsed) but they turn out to be Jews just the same. It's not just
              the
              > nose.
              > It's something deeper.
              >
              > I imagine that there are some true apostates who leave one religion
              for
              > another (definition of apostate which is a capital crime in much of
              > Islam)
              > but I don't think there are very many who have completely made the
              leap
              > from
              > one faith to another. The childhood imagery is so strong. I
              remember
              > singing Battle Hymn of the Republic as a kid and nearly crying over
              its
              > force and bizarre power. It's the same thing now. The thing is
              that
              > dada
              > and surrealism and other art movements are a lot of fun and
              sometimes
              > quite
              > powerful, but even they -- when they reach into the deeper
              emotions --
              > are
              > so tainted with the religious upbringing of their various members --

              > Breton
              > for instance was a deep Catholic in childhood (his mother used to
              box
              > his
              > ears if he got his catechism wrong) and when he reaches for a
              powerful
              > image
              > it's Notre Dame of Paris, or Chartres, or the Madonna image.
              Soupault
              > when
              > he reaches for a deep image has one of hands folded in prayer, or
              > angels.
              >
              > It's like a rubber band is tied around the waist and you can run as
              far
              > as
              > you like but at some point you will snap back to your point of
              origin
              > or
              > else you will be shot into outer space. Can you run from your
              > childhood or
              > even change it? Not without completely losing your orientation
              > altogether.
              >
              > The big thing in the Lutheran church right now is whether or not
              we're
              > going
              > to ordain gay priests. It's about 50-50. I find all the fireworks
              > over
              > this question to be so absorbing! We're supposed to have the vote
              in
              > about
              > a month but the pro-gay side is losing its traction and wants to
              delay
              > the
              > vote. But the United Congregation of Christ just said gay priests
              were
              > fine. And now their membership is hemorrhaging. I go back and
              forth
              > on the
              > question and am the point now of saying, no to ordination,
              basically
              > because
              > I don't think we know whether the male priests are going to harm the
              > children or not. Some say yes, and some say no. I would rather
              not
              > take a
              > chance. If you get that kind of thing going in your denomination
              you
              > can't
              > buy insurance except at astronomical fees.
              >
              > I don't think anybody knows what it is to be gay. Even gay people
              > don't
              > really know. Nobody knows what sex is. Or sexual attraction.
              It's
              > funny
              > -- it doesn't appear to be biological, and yet it is. Does God
              have
              > sex?
              > Does he want it? Did Jesus want it? Why didn't he ever talk about
              > wanting
              > it, if he did? Why didn't he talk about how weird it is? When he
              > talks
              > about it, it seems to be in the third person. The Da Vinci code
              that I
              > haven't read says he had children, I think I read somewhere. Dream
              on.
              > I
              > think the Gospels would have said something.
              >
              > -- Kirby
              >
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's
              > FREE!
              > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
            • VYT BAKAITIS
              God has his hands full, and not just Sundays, so he (HE to traditionalists, WHO to rationalists, and HAW to the sanest of anarchists: ME) shoves the load for
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 29, 2005
                God has his hands full, and not just Sundays, so he (HE to
                traditionalists, WHO to rationalists, and HAW to the sanest of
                anarchists: ME) shoves the load for sortilege on the backpacking
                terrorists.
                Problem is, the latter are illiterate; though these pure absolutists of
                total disregard execute each dictate to the letter, it's all by random
                dispatch. So much for a Divine Plan.
                Stalin the failed seminarian had a cool grasp on the Church Temporal for
                a while and spun a grim variation on the limited 5-yr Plan by resorting
                to Show Trials, large-scale rituals in misrepresentation, which hearkened
                strictly to the sacerdotal model for our common era: an enforced
                confession rewarded with servitude in Gulag for a wreck of a
                resurrection.
                The trickle down worked. Small wonder that, by his game, terror grew to
                become universal. Now it's standard. Terror has to live up to its name.
                And enough to make Lazarus, upon being entreated, want to retreat. No
                thanks.
                So much for treating history as scripture.
                The lexon for today. Go get it.
                But you'd have to find it first.


                On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:54:08 -0000 mandreox <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                writes:
                It's summer, and tourists are wrecking the Staten Island ferry
                schedule. They won't get off, they pet the bomb dogs, and they can be
                bizarrely demanding. Security adds to the lowly sailor's trouble.
                Whom do you prefer, I asked one sailor, tourists or terrorists?
                Terrorists, he answered, grinning. How do you tell difference? Kill
                them all, and let God sort it out.

                --- In unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com, voxhaul@A... wrote:
                > I was raised in scotland as a very liberal Presbyterian in the
                Scottish
                > church thern later studied with Chogyam Trungpa and Ginsberg at
                > Naropa--consequently became lovers with Allen and played guitar in
                his
                > band--I now have many queer friends who are practicising buddhists
                but
                > I have a problem with the buddhist leaders because of the gay
                > dilemma--the Dali Lama says it is ok to be queer but not to
                practise it
                > sexually so there I break with the religious side and can only
                embrace
                > it as a mind practise and philosophy--so many of my friends live in
                a
                > kind of bardo because of the Dalai Lama's edict--thay are sexually
                > oriented in one way (for whatever reason one "ends up" whatever way-
                -I
                > believe that everyone is biologically both only bisexual but in
                fact
                > omnisexual--that one can for example be atracted to an object
                > (fetishism) or even an idea) but cannot express their
                love/affection
                > fully which I find to be hypocritical on the Dalai's part--should
                we
                > not love everyone in whatever way we can?
                >
                > when the Dali lama was interviewed recently he was asked if he had
                any
                > regrets about his life and he simply pointed to his cock....he said
                > that although he was glad to have lived a religious life that he
                > sometimes wished he could experience the pleasures of the body like
                a
                > regular guy--so he is acutely aware of this problem...
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Kirby Olson <kirbyolson2@h...>
                > To: unmuzzledox@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:27:28 +0000
                > Subject: RE: [Unmuzzled Ox] God
                >
                > Luther never intended to leave Catholicism, but only to get rid
                of
                > the
                > indulgences. He was an Augustinian monk who was shocked at the
                amount
                > of
                > money the pope was using to party in Rome. So he very cagily
                started
                > an
                > uprising. He made sure he had the backing of the powerful leaders
                of
                > Germany, and the split survived. Lutherans are very much unlike the
                > Calvinists, however. Calvinists for instance don't think there
                should
                > be a
                > religious art. Luther told his followers to stop smashing icons.
                One
                > of
                > Luther's close friends was Albrecht Durer. Another good friend was
                > Lucas
                > Cranach. He also allowed the priests to marry (the upshot of not
                > allowing
                > them to marry meant that they would fuck members of the
                congregation or
                > each
                > other) and he said that each person has direct access to Jesus.
                Unlike
                > the
                > Mennonites (whom Luther crushed at their inception but who survived
                in
                > splinter forms esp. in Switzerland) Lutherans believe in war,
                capital
                > punishment, and are permitted to masturbate, and there is total
                freedom
                > of
                > inquiry.
                >
                > I assume you were raised Catholic somewhere in Canada, Michael?
                >
                > I was lapsed for 20 years until my daughter was born. I was raised
                > Lutheran
                > first in Iowa and then in Eastern Pennsylvania, but I was always
                bugged
                > by
                > the strictness of it, and yet admired that, too. Then at the
                baptism
                > (which
                > I hated having to attend) the songs from my childhood slapped me
                clear
                > back
                > to Nazareth, and now I just love going again. It's been fun to
                slowly
                > read
                > Lutheran theology like Paul Tillich and Reinhold Niebuhr and to
                realize
                > that
                > in some horrible way I had never left the church at all, but had
                only
                > thought that I had. It's like when Corso said, "Once a Catholic
                always
                > a
                > Catholic." One could put Lutheran into that sentence.
                >
                > Unlike your poem, Michael, my wife is Lutheran (although she is
                largely
                > lapsed, or so she thinks). A lot of people marry Jews (Jews think
                they
                > are
                > lapsed) but they turn out to be Jews just the same. It's not just
                the
                > nose.
                > It's something deeper.
                >
                > I imagine that there are some true apostates who leave one religion
                for
                > another (definition of apostate which is a capital crime in much of
                > Islam)
                > but I don't think there are very many who have completely made the
                leap
                > from
                > one faith to another. The childhood imagery is so strong. I
                remember
                > singing Battle Hymn of the Republic as a kid and nearly crying over
                its
                > force and bizarre power. It's the same thing now. The thing is
                that
                > dada
                > and surrealism and other art movements are a lot of fun and
                sometimes
                > quite
                > powerful, but even they -- when they reach into the deeper
                emotions --
                > are
                > so tainted with the religious upbringing of their various members --

                > Breton
                > for instance was a deep Catholic in childhood (his mother used to
                box
                > his
                > ears if he got his catechism wrong) and when he reaches for a
                powerful
                > image
                > it's Notre Dame of Paris, or Chartres, or the Madonna image.
                Soupault
                > when
                > he reaches for a deep image has one of hands folded in prayer, or
                > angels.
                >
                > It's like a rubber band is tied around the waist and you can run as
                far
                > as
                > you like but at some point you will snap back to your point of
                origin
                > or
                > else you will be shot into outer space. Can you run from your
                > childhood or
                > even change it? Not without completely losing your orientation
                > altogether.
                >
                > The big thing in the Lutheran church right now is whether or not
                we're
                > going
                > to ordain gay priests. It's about 50-50. I find all the fireworks
                > over
                > this question to be so absorbing! We're supposed to have the vote
                in
                > about
                > a month but the pro-gay side is losing its traction and wants to
                delay
                > the
                > vote. But the United Congregation of Christ just said gay priests
                were
                > fine. And now their membership is hemorrhaging. I go back and
                forth
                > on the
                > question and am the point now of saying, no to ordination,
                basically
                > because
                > I don't think we know whether the male priests are going to harm the
                > children or not. Some say yes, and some say no. I would rather
                not
                > take a
                > chance. If you get that kind of thing going in your denomination
                you
                > can't
                > buy insurance except at astronomical fees.
                >
                > I don't think anybody knows what it is to be gay. Even gay people
                > don't
                > really know. Nobody knows what sex is. Or sexual attraction.
                It's
                > funny
                > -- it doesn't appear to be biological, and yet it is. Does God
                have
                > sex?
                > Does he want it? Did Jesus want it? Why didn't he ever talk about
                > wanting
                > it, if he did? Why didn't he talk about how weird it is? When he
                > talks
                > about it, it seems to be in the third person. The Da Vinci code
                that I
                > haven't read says he had children, I think I read somewhere. Dream
                on.
                > I
                > think the Gospels would have said something.
                >
                > -- Kirby
                >
                > >
                >
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