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Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule

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  • Ben & Linley Goodale
    I m inclined to agree. Misorders are actually an important part of the game. A proactive GM can always query them with a player. ... From: Malcolm Cornelius
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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      I'm inclined to agree.

      Misorders are actually an important part of the game.

      A proactive GM can always query them with a player.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Malcolm Cornelius
      To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule


      on 02/10/03 21:27, Bruce Edwards at kactusjak@... wrote:

      > The point I would like to make is the situation where the player is
      > deliberately trying to mislead his neighbours!
      > Taking Mike's example - if I ordered F Bul > Con when it was actually an army,
      > I would probably be rather put out if the Army was moved when my intention was
      > to pretend to Austria or Russia that I was pulling back!
      > Maybe if GMs were to stipulate that mis-orders would be corrected - if the
      > intent was fairly obvious - unless the player stated it was deliberate!
      >
      > So if I was to order:
      > F Bul > Con
      > Mike would move my Army but if I ordered:
      > F Bul > Con (deliberate misorder)
      > then Mike would see my intention is to deceive - and not a mistake in writing
      > the order!!
      >
      > I think it would be good if GMs were to point out errors to players,
      > especially new players! You can't learn from your mistakes if you don't know
      > what mistakes you made!!!
      >

      I don't think the GM should do ANYTHING except enact the orders as written
      by the player.

      If the player makes a mistake, so be it, unlucky, play better.

      They should be an adjudicator and not have any other role.

      F(Bul) - Con when it is an army should fail.

      Bul - Con should succeed unless the house rules require that the type of
      piece be correctly named.

      --
      Best wishes

      Malcolm Cornelius

      MSN Messenger - malc_c@... ICQ - 47738640



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    • Mike Dean
      In reply to Bruce, The PSYCHOPATH house rules actually do state that the GM should be informed of deliberate misorders, and that badly written orders where the
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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        In reply to Bruce,

        The PSYCHOPATH house rules actually do state that the GM should be
        informed of deliberate misorders, and that badly written orders
        where the meaning is clear WILL be interpretted as such. So if you
        order F Bul-Con when you have an army, and you don't state that it
        is an intentional misorder, the GM should simply move your army!

        Of course, this means that it is obvious to the other players that
        you deliberately misordered. But so it goes....

        I still reiterate - why do you need a human GM if you are going to
        be so dogmatic about how people should submit orders and that their
        abbreviations should be absolutely correctly spelt or they misorder.
        If that's your view - go play on the JUDGES! A bit of pragmatism is
        called for here and I will always maintain that a good GM will show
        pragmatism when it comes to interpretting orders.

        On psychopath, and I am sure it MUST be true of Dip2000 and other
        sites too - we have a number of players whose first language is NOT
        English. This means that I have often seen orders which instead of
        putting the usual abbreviation for a province on the board clearly
        put something which is an abbreviation of the province name in the
        language of the person submitting the order. What is any reasonably
        minded GM supposed to do in those circumstances?

        IF we follow Malcolm's view - they should be misordered - and hey,
        guess what? The player thinks SOD THAT for a lark, NMRs, anarchies
        and never returns! Well that isn't going to happen when I'm GMing,
        and I hope wouldn't happen on psychopath at all.

        Ah well. I think I will have to agree to disagree on this one. But
        one thing is for sure - I won't change my pragmatic style of GMing
        to be so dogmatic that I discourage players from participating on
        psychopath!

        cheers

        MIKE

        --- In ukpbm@yahoogroups.com, Ben & Linley Goodale
        <ben_goodale@c...> wrote:
        > I'm inclined to agree.
        >
        > Misorders are actually an important part of the game.
        >
        > A proactive GM can always query them with a player.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Malcolm Cornelius
        > To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:59 PM
        > Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule
        >
        >
        > on 02/10/03 21:27, Bruce Edwards at kactusjak@t... wrote:
        >
        > > The point I would like to make is the situation where the
        player is
        > > deliberately trying to mislead his neighbours!
        > > Taking Mike's example - if I ordered F Bul > Con when it was
        actually an army,
        > > I would probably be rather put out if the Army was moved when
        my intention was
        > > to pretend to Austria or Russia that I was pulling back!
        > > Maybe if GMs were to stipulate that mis-orders would be
        corrected - if the
        > > intent was fairly obvious - unless the player stated it was
        deliberate!
        > >
        > > So if I was to order:
        > > F Bul > Con
        > > Mike would move my Army but if I ordered:
        > > F Bul > Con (deliberate misorder)
        > > then Mike would see my intention is to deceive - and not a
        mistake in writing
        > > the order!!
        > >
        > > I think it would be good if GMs were to point out errors to
        players,
        > > especially new players! You can't learn from your mistakes if
        you don't know
        > > what mistakes you made!!!
        > >
        >
        > I don't think the GM should do ANYTHING except enact the orders
        as written
        > by the player.
        >
        > If the player makes a mistake, so be it, unlucky, play better.
        >
        > They should be an adjudicator and not have any other role.
        >
        > F(Bul) - Con when it is an army should fail.
        >
        > Bul - Con should succeed unless the house rules require that the
        type of
        > piece be correctly named.
        >
        > --
        > Best wishes
        >
        > Malcolm Cornelius
        >
        > MSN Messenger - malc_c@c... ICQ - 47738640
        >
        >
        >
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      • Malcolm Cornelius
        ... Thought I d be playing against another player and their ability to play the game, not another player assisted by an intrusive GM. By establishing a
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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          on 03/10/03 10:34, Mike Dean at mike.dean@... wrote:

          > I still reiterate - why do you need a human GM if you are going to
          > be so dogmatic about how people should submit orders and that their
          > abbreviations should be absolutely correctly spelt or they misorder.
          > If that's your view - go play on the JUDGES! A bit of pragmatism is
          > called for here and I will always maintain that a good GM will show
          > pragmatism when it comes to interpretting orders.
          >
          > On psychopath, and I am sure it MUST be true of Dip2000 and other
          > sites too - we have a number of players whose first language is NOT
          > English. This means that I have often seen orders which instead of
          > putting the usual abbreviation for a province on the board clearly
          > put something which is an abbreviation of the province name in the
          > language of the person submitting the order. What is any reasonably
          > minded GM supposed to do in those circumstances?
          >
          > IF we follow Malcolm's view - they should be misordered - and hey,
          > guess what? The player thinks SOD THAT for a lark, NMRs, anarchies
          > and never returns! Well that isn't going to happen when I'm GMing,
          > and I hope wouldn't happen on psychopath at all.
          >
          > Ah well. I think I will have to agree to disagree on this one. But
          > one thing is for sure - I won't change my pragmatic style of GMing
          > to be so dogmatic that I discourage players from participating on
          > psychopath!

          Thought I'd be playing against another player and their ability to play the
          game, not another player assisted by an intrusive GM.

          By establishing a precedent that you'll intervene to assist players, how far
          do you go - Missed province on a retreat option ? Forgot to order a retreat
          at all ? Forgotten support order ?

          What if as GM you forget to correct a mistake ?

          If the HR state that in the event of an invalid order being received you'll
          attempt to contact the player to clarify it, maybe giving them until the
          deadline to correct it, then fine.

          This is something that was impossible in my day of postal GMing but in email
          based play might be possible - are these games limited to email based
          players ?

          But I feel it is the players job to play the game correctly, by all means
          steer them but I don't think the GM should be making decisions or correcting
          things on behalf of players.

          If the GMs role is anything other than interpreting the orders as written,
          then it needs to be defined in the house rules being used, so the players
          know what rules are being played to and what may or may not happen.

          --
          Best wishes

          Malcolm Cornelius

          MSN Messenger - malc_c@... ICQ - 47738640
        • Shaun Derrick
          I must agree with Mike Dean on this. I used to be very strict in my early years of Diplomacy GMing, and indeed many other GM s were too. I have had one or two
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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            I must agree with Mike Dean on this. I used to be very strict in my early years of Diplomacy GMing, and indeed many other GM's were too. I have had one or two confrontations with players over 'badly written' orders, but these days I am more lenient and will follow orders so long as the intention is clear; and errors by players are very few and far between.

            GM intervention is *necessary*! So long as the GM advises players of his 'House Rules' on what he will and will not accept, there should be no problem. The more lenient GM's will have a much easier time than those that aren't!

            F(Bul)-Con if it was an army would mean the army moves to Con. If the player wanted it to be a misorder, then he should have read the house rules!

            Shaun Derrick

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mike Dean [mailto:mike.dean@...]
            Sent: 03 October 2003 10:35
            To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule


            In reply to Bruce,

            The PSYCHOPATH house rules actually do state that the GM should be
            informed of deliberate misorders, and that badly written orders
            where the meaning is clear WILL be interpretted as such. So if you
            order F Bul-Con when you have an army, and you don't state that it
            is an intentional misorder, the GM should simply move your army!

            Of course, this means that it is obvious to the other players that
            you deliberately misordered. But so it goes....

            I still reiterate - why do you need a human GM if you are going to
            be so dogmatic about how people should submit orders and that their
            abbreviations should be absolutely correctly spelt or they misorder.
            If that's your view - go play on the JUDGES! A bit of pragmatism is
            called for here and I will always maintain that a good GM will show
            pragmatism when it comes to interpretting orders.

            On psychopath, and I am sure it MUST be true of Dip2000 and other
            sites too - we have a number of players whose first language is NOT
            English. This means that I have often seen orders which instead of
            putting the usual abbreviation for a province on the board clearly
            put something which is an abbreviation of the province name in the
            language of the person submitting the order. What is any reasonably
            minded GM supposed to do in those circumstances?

            IF we follow Malcolm's view - they should be misordered - and hey,
            guess what? The player thinks SOD THAT for a lark, NMRs, anarchies
            and never returns! Well that isn't going to happen when I'm GMing,
            and I hope wouldn't happen on psychopath at all.

            Ah well. I think I will have to agree to disagree on this one. But
            one thing is for sure - I won't change my pragmatic style of GMing
            to be so dogmatic that I discourage players from participating on
            psychopath!

            cheers

            MIKE

            --- In ukpbm@yahoogroups.com, Ben & Linley Goodale
            <ben_goodale@c...> wrote:
            > I'm inclined to agree.
            >
            > Misorders are actually an important part of the game.
            >
            > A proactive GM can always query them with a player.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Malcolm Cornelius
            > To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:59 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule
            >
            >
            > on 02/10/03 21:27, Bruce Edwards at kactusjak@t... wrote:
            >
            > > The point I would like to make is the situation where the
            player is
            > > deliberately trying to mislead his neighbours!
            > > Taking Mike's example - if I ordered F Bul > Con when it was
            actually an army,
            > > I would probably be rather put out if the Army was moved when
            my intention was
            > > to pretend to Austria or Russia that I was pulling back!
            > > Maybe if GMs were to stipulate that mis-orders would be
            corrected - if the
            > > intent was fairly obvious - unless the player stated it was
            deliberate!
            > >
            > > So if I was to order:
            > > F Bul > Con
            > > Mike would move my Army but if I ordered:
            > > F Bul > Con (deliberate misorder)
            > > then Mike would see my intention is to deceive - and not a
            mistake in writing
            > > the order!!
            > >
            > > I think it would be good if GMs were to point out errors to
            players,
            > > especially new players! You can't learn from your mistakes if
            you don't know
            > > what mistakes you made!!!
            > >
            >
            > I don't think the GM should do ANYTHING except enact the orders
            as written
            > by the player.
            >
            > If the player makes a mistake, so be it, unlucky, play better.
            >
            > They should be an adjudicator and not have any other role.
            >
            > F(Bul) - Con when it is an army should fail.
            >
            > Bul - Con should succeed unless the house rules require that the
            type of
            > piece be correctly named.
            >
            > --
            > Best wishes
            >
            > Malcolm Cornelius
            >
            > MSN Messenger - malc_c@c... ICQ - 47738640
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            Service.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Tom Tweedy
            In message , Mike Dean writes ... So, you d allow A[Bul]-Com to go to Con then, right? But what if the
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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              In message <blhiqk+2rad@...>, Mike Dean
              <mike.dean@...> writes
              >No - no case whatsover Tom. I firmly believe that the "badly
              >written" rules still stands.
              >
              >A(Bul)-Com to me is an example of a badly written rule.
              >F(Bul)-Con when it is in fact an army is another example.
              >
              >In both cases - for me - the ARMY moves from BUL to CON.
              >
              >The intention is clear - the order should be followed.
              >
              >I'm afraid the article you refer to although fairly well written
              >does quote some rather ridiculous examples of what a GM might
              >interpret as badly written. It is quite obvious (IMHO) what
              >constitutes a badly written order and what is completely wrong. If a
              >player orders to move A(War) when in fact he has A(Lvn) then that's
              >tough - but (again IMHO) if he orders A(Liv) rather than using
              >the "accepted" abbreviation for Livonia (Lvn), and he doesn't have a
              >unit in Liverpool - why the hell should he be penalised for using
              >the wrong abbreviation. The meaning is PERFECTLY clear.

              So, you'd allow A[Bul]-Com to go to Con then, right? But what if the
              player WANTED to misorder it? That's what Nick Kinzett was talking about
              by GM intervention.
              >
              >This will always be a contentious issue - and I notice that Dip2000
              >now has "lenient" and "strict" GMs.

              Yes, I was surprised that only Duncan Proffitt was on the STRICT list -
              I was sure I had others. I think Duncan was just getting fed up of
              deliberately sloppy orders.

              >I would be surprised if there was any (sane) GM out there who could
              >not reasonably use their judgement as to what the player intended
              >and know when to draw the line. Let's face it - that's surely why we
              >all enjoy playing using HUMAN GMs. If we want to start insisting on
              >using only the CORRECT, APPROVED abbreviations, why don't we all
              >just pack up and start using the judges. (God FORBID!)
              >
              No, I agree with you, Mike, I've never had any problems interpreting
              orders either. That's why I thought it would be easier having human GMs.

              Tom
              --
              Tom Tweedy
              Diplomacy 2000
              http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
            • Malcolm Cornelius
              on 03/10/03 13:50, Shaun Derrick at shaun.derrick@travelmanagement.co.uk ... Absolutely you need to know the parameters you are playing under, I think I said
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                on 03/10/03 13:50, Shaun Derrick at shaun.derrick@...
                wrote:

                > I am more lenient and will follow orders so long as the intention is clear;
                > and errors by players are very few and far between.
                >
                > GM intervention is *necessary*! So long as the GM advises players of his
                > 'House Rules' on what he will and will not accept, there should be no problem.
                > The more lenient GM's will have a much easier time than those that aren't!

                Absolutely you need to know the parameters you are playing under, I think I
                said what the GM will or won't do should be laid down in the HR, but I don't
                think that we should put any rule in that makes deliberate misorders
                impossible or obvious ...

                > F(Bul)-Con if it was an army would mean the army moves to Con. If the player
                > wanted it to be a misorder, then he should have read the house rules!

                So how does he misorder it ? You won't let me misspell the province or
                mistype the unit - Bul - Arm fooling no-one ?

                Best

                Malcolm
              • Tom Tweedy
                In message , Bruce Edwards writes ... That s exactly why Nick Kinzett says it s GM
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                  In message <001101c38923$a63297a0$a8b1a43e@tinypc>, Bruce Edwards
                  <kactusjak@...> writes
                  >The point I would like to make is the situation where the player is
                  >deliberately trying to mislead his neighbours!
                  >Taking Mike's example - if I ordered F Bul > Con when it was actually
                  >an army, I would probably be rather put out if the Army was moved when
                  >my intention was to pretend to Austria or Russia that I was pulling back!

                  That's exactly why Nick Kinzett says it's GM intervention.
                  >
                  >So if I was to order:
                  >F Bul > Con
                  >Mike would move my Army but if I ordered:
                  >F Bul > Con (deliberate misorder)
                  >then Mike would see my intention is to deceive - and not a mistake in
                  >writing the order!!

                  Writing 'deliberate misorder' every time simply defeats the object of
                  the tactic though doesn't it.
                  >
                  >I think it would be good if GMs were to point out errors to players,
                  >especially new players! You can't learn from your mistakes if you don't
                  >know what mistakes you made!!!

                  Yes but most badly written orders are just sloppy ordering - things like
                  Bul-Con; or not specifying a country when supporting that country's
                  units.

                  Tom
                  --
                  Tom Tweedy
                  Diplomacy 2000
                  http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                • Tom Tweedy
                  In message , Malcolm Cornelius writes ... I must admit I agree entirely here. Although I do give
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                    In message <BBA2A49B.482F1%malcolm@...>, Malcolm Cornelius
                    <malcolm@...> writes

                    >I don't think the GM should do ANYTHING except enact the orders as written
                    >by the player.
                    >
                    >If the player makes a mistake, so be it, unlucky, play better.
                    >
                    >They should be an adjudicator and not have any other role.
                    >
                    >F(Bul) - Con when it is an army should fail.
                    >
                    >Bul - Con should succeed unless the house rules require that the type of
                    >piece be correctly named.
                    >
                    I must admit I agree entirely here. Although I do give help to newcomers
                    in 1901.

                    Tom
                    --
                    Tom Tweedy
                    Diplomacy 2000
                    http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                  • Tom Tweedy
                    In message , Mike Dean writes ... Then your saying we lose the deliberate misorder tactic then Mike,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                      In message <bljfrs+hsp2@...>, Mike Dean
                      <mike.dean@...> writes
                      >In reply to Bruce,
                      >
                      >The PSYCHOPATH house rules actually do state that the GM should be
                      >informed of deliberate misorders, and that badly written orders
                      >where the meaning is clear WILL be interpretted as such. So if you
                      >order F Bul-Con when you have an army, and you don't state that it
                      >is an intentional misorder, the GM should simply move your army!
                      >
                      >Of course, this means that it is obvious to the other players that
                      >you deliberately misordered. But so it goes....

                      Then your saying we lose the deliberate misorder tactic then Mike,
                      right? Hmmm... seems a bit draconian. Are you sure you're a 'lenient'
                      GM? :-)

                      >
                      >I still reiterate - why do you need a human GM if you are going to
                      >be so dogmatic about how people should submit orders and that their
                      >abbreviations should be absolutely correctly spelt or they misorder.
                      >If that's your view - go play on the JUDGES! A bit of pragmatism is
                      >called for here and I will always maintain that a good GM will show
                      >pragmatism when it comes to interpretting orders.

                      Because human GMs CAN help... but not to interfere. Human GMs can help
                      when players go down sick; go off to war [which has happened on
                      dip2000]; and when catastrophes hit, as it did for September 11th. Just
                      not for orders.

                      >
                      >On psychopath, and I am sure it MUST be true of Dip2000 and other
                      >sites too - we have a number of players whose first language is NOT
                      >English. This means that I have often seen orders which instead of
                      >putting the usual abbreviation for a province on the board clearly
                      >put something which is an abbreviation of the province name in the
                      >language of the person submitting the order. What is any reasonably
                      >minded GM supposed to do in those circumstances?

                      I agree we have to be careful with some abbreviations, YES. I've had
                      players from the Balkans who HAVE put Rom for Rumania... simply because
                      it's modern spelling is now Romania. But on the whole I've found most
                      foreigners speak, and write, better English than me!

                      >
                      >IF we follow Malcolm's view - they should be misordered - and hey,
                      >guess what? The player thinks SOD THAT for a lark, NMRs, anarchies
                      >and never returns!

                      If they leave that easily then they probably didn't like the game anyway
                      Mike. When I came back into the hobby and ordered a few screw-ups [my
                      brain wasn't properly in gear and I had Richard Hucknall as my GM], I
                      just pulled myself together and concentrated more to get my orders
                      right.

                      Tom
                      --
                      Tom Tweedy
                      Diplomacy 2000
                      http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                    • Shaun Derrick
                      Misordering deliberately is difficult under such rules, I agree; but as long as the order is completely ambiguous or clearly impossible, then it is a misorder.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                        Misordering deliberately is difficult under such rules, I agree; but as long as the order is completely ambiguous or clearly impossible, then it is a misorder. The best option is to order the unit twice, ordering a different action each time - a more plausible misorder.
                        However, I don't think many players are fooled by deliberate misorders anyway, so I think the practice of using misorders is crude and largely counter-productive.

                        Shaun

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Malcolm Cornelius [mailto:malcolm@...]
                        Sent: 03 October 2003 14:01
                        To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule


                        on 03/10/03 13:50, Shaun Derrick at shaun.derrick@...
                        wrote:

                        > I am more lenient and will follow orders so long as the intention is clear;
                        > and errors by players are very few and far between.
                        >
                        > GM intervention is *necessary*! So long as the GM advises players of his
                        > 'House Rules' on what he will and will not accept, there should be no problem.
                        > The more lenient GM's will have a much easier time than those that aren't!

                        Absolutely you need to know the parameters you are playing under, I think I
                        said what the GM will or won't do should be laid down in the HR, but I don't
                        think that we should put any rule in that makes deliberate misorders
                        impossible or obvious ...

                        > F(Bul)-Con if it was an army would mean the army moves to Con. If the player
                        > wanted it to be a misorder, then he should have read the house rules!

                        So how does he misorder it ? You won't let me misspell the province or
                        mistype the unit - Bul - Arm fooling no-one ?

                        Best

                        Malcolm





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                      • Mark Wightman
                        ... I ve never understood this. Why should people have to specify the nationality of a foriegn support? To me the following orders are the same, it s not as if
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          >
                          > Yes but most badly written orders are just sloppy ordering - things like
                          > Bul-Con; or not specifying a country when supporting that country's
                          > units.


                          I've never understood this. Why should people have to specify the
                          nationality of a foriegn support? To me the following orders are the same,
                          it's not as if there can be two different units in a province.

                          A(Rum) s Turkish A(Bul) - Ser
                          A(Rum) s A(Bul) - Ser
                          A(Rum) s Bul - Ser

                          Why should you have to include superfluous info? Although, I would say that
                          if your did include it then it should be right.

                          Cheers


                          Mark
                        • Tom Tweedy
                          In message , Mark Wightman writes ... It s not that they HAVE to order nationalities Mark,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                            In message <007401c389b4$7b539660$82037ad5@tinypc>, Mark Wightman
                            <mr.sprout@...> writes
                            >
                            >>
                            >> Yes but most badly written orders are just sloppy ordering - things like
                            >> Bul-Con; or not specifying a country when supporting that country's
                            >> units.
                            >
                            >
                            >I've never understood this. Why should people have to specify the
                            >nationality of a foriegn support? To me the following orders are the same,
                            >it's not as if there can be two different units in a province.
                            >
                            >A(Rum) s Turkish A(Bul) - Ser
                            >A(Rum) s A(Bul) - Ser
                            >A(Rum) s Bul - Ser
                            >
                            >Why should you have to include superfluous info? Although, I would say that
                            >if your did include it then it should be right.

                            It's not that they HAVE to order nationalities Mark, it's just as a GM I
                            think it's nicer [certainly it's preferable].

                            I've always ordered it, and used 'A', 'F' for units. (a) because the
                            1971 rulebook suggested I should, and (b) because I know how easily GMs
                            get confused over sloppy orders - and I want my units to move exactly as
                            I ordered them.

                            Sloppy ordering is okay around a f-t-f table where orders are quickly
                            scribbled - that's understandable - but listing units using a
                            typewriter/keyboard? I think it's laziness in some cases.

                            Which is no bad thing in itself. But why go out of your way to confuse
                            your poor hardworking GM by causing all these debates? I still say HANG
                            'EM!

                            Tom 'the lenient' Tweedy
                            --
                            Tom Tweedy
                            Diplomacy 2000
                            http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                          • Howard Bishop
                            I ve never GM-ed diplomacy, but I am playing in my first couple of postal games. As a recent newbie I have to agree that I almost gave up when I got screwed
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                              I've never GM-ed diplomacy, but I am playing in my first couple of postal
                              games. As a recent newbie I have to agree that I almost gave up when I got
                              screwed over a slight misspelling and a missed build order, which
                              essentially put me two units back out of five. It's difficult enough with 6
                              players trying to kill you, without feeling that you're fighting the rules
                              as well. GM's should use a certain amount of discretion, especially with
                              wet-behind-the-ears players.

                              I think it's fair to say that as long as the adjudicator makes it clear what
                              their policy is from the start, players can choose which games they want to
                              play in.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Tom Tweedy [mailto:tom@...]
                              Sent: 03/Oct/2003 14:06
                              To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: the "Badly Written" rule


                              In message <BBA2A49B.482F1%malcolm@...>, Malcolm Cornelius
                              <malcolm@...> writes

                              >I don't think the GM should do ANYTHING except enact the orders as written
                              >by the player.
                              >
                              >If the player makes a mistake, so be it, unlucky, play better.
                              >
                              >They should be an adjudicator and not have any other role.
                              >
                              >F(Bul) - Con when it is an army should fail.
                              >
                              >Bul - Con should succeed unless the house rules require that the type of
                              >piece be correctly named.
                              >
                              I must admit I agree entirely here. Although I do give help to newcomers
                              in 1901.

                              Tom
                              --
                              Tom Tweedy
                              Diplomacy 2000
                              http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                              <http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/>


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