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Time to say goodbye?

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  • stephenagar
    I set up this group so long ago, I forget. However, as there have been no messages for quite some time, isn t it a good idea to wind the group up? The UK
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 9, 2002
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      I set up this group so long ago, I forget. However, as there have
      been no messages for quite some time, isn't it a good idea to wind
      the group up?

      The UK amateur PBM hobby is all but a busted flush - everyone (Elvis
      included) has left the building. Shall we turn the light off now?

      Regards
    • Bruce Edwards
      It s a shame, but I think you re right. I don t think it s just the amateur pbm scene though. People seem to have less time for organising social events too.
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 9, 2002
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        It's a shame, but I think you're right. I don't think it's just the amateur pbm scene though. People seem to have less time for organising social events too. Our primary school is searching for a Chair for the Parents' Association and the church committee cancelled a trip to London because of no support.
        The world changes and moves on... but I'll hang onto as many zines as I can!

        B.

        psychopath website (for games) - http://www.psychozine.co.uk
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: stephenagar
        To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:22 PM
        Subject: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?



        I set up this group so long ago, I forget. However, as there have
        been no messages for quite some time, isn't it a good idea to wind
        the group up?

        The UK amateur PBM hobby is all but a busted flush - everyone (Elvis
        included) has left the building. Shall we turn the light off now?

        Regards


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      • Victor Sousa
        Oops! Just arrived and got this mail!! Great welcome commitee. :) ... Vitor Emanuel Sousa Estudante de Economia Universidade Nova de Lisboa
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 9, 2002
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          Oops! Just arrived and got this mail!!

          Great welcome commitee. :)


          >From: "stephenagar" <stephen@...>
          >Reply-To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
          >To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?
          >Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:22:20 -0000
          >
          >
          >I set up this group so long ago, I forget. However, as there have
          >been no messages for quite some time, isn't it a good idea to wind
          >the group up?
          >
          >The UK amateur PBM hobby is all but a busted flush - everyone (Elvis
          >included) has left the building. Shall we turn the light off now?
          >
          >Regards
          >




          Vitor Emanuel Sousa
          Estudante de Economia
          Universidade Nova de Lisboa


          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Howard Bishop
          Stephen, Unless we have to pay to keep it going, I would be an advocate for leaving it. Otherwise, it s as good as saying that the Amateur PBM hobby no longer
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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            Stephen,

            Unless we have to pay to keep it going, I would be an advocate for leaving
            it.

            Otherwise, it's as good as saying that the Amateur PBM hobby no longer
            exists. For relative newcomers like myself, it sends a message that says
            "don't bother, we're no longer open for business". In which case, I might as
            well plan to fold my 'zine now.

            I do understand your frustration at the lack of activity though.

            Howard


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ben & Linley Goodale
            Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some months ago, there has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we were onto
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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              Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some months ago, there has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we were onto something.

              so long then, and thanks for all the (not) emails.....

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bruce Edwards
              To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 8:39
              Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


              It's a shame, but I think you're right. I don't think it's just the amateur pbm scene though. People seem to have less time for organising social events too. Our primary school is searching for a Chair for the Parents' Association and the church committee cancelled a trip to London because of no support.
              The world changes and moves on... but I'll hang onto as many zines as I can!

              B.

              psychopath website (for games) - http://www.psychozine.co.uk
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: stephenagar
              To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:22 PM
              Subject: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?



              I set up this group so long ago, I forget. However, as there have
              been no messages for quite some time, isn't it a good idea to wind
              the group up?

              The UK amateur PBM hobby is all but a busted flush - everyone (Elvis
              included) has left the building. Shall we turn the light off now?

              Regards


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            • Paul Dowden
              If there is a problem paying for the site, I think I could quite easily incorporate the site (free of course) into mine at
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                If there is a problem paying for the site, I think I could quite easily incorporate the site (free of course) into mine at http://chingfordgames1.homestead.com/pbm2.html; you will notice I have a plug there already for the postal games site.

                Paul Dowden

                >>> hbishop@... 10/09/02 09:31:44 >>>
                Stephen,

                Unless we have to pay to keep it going, I would be an advocate for leaving
                it.

                Otherwise, it's as good as saying that the Amateur PBM hobby no longer
                exists. For relative newcomers like myself, it sends a message that says
                "don't bother, we're no longer open for business". In which case, I might as
                well plan to fold my 'zine now.

                I do understand your frustration at the lack of activity though.

                Howard


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              • Tom Tweedy
                In message , Howard Bishop writes ... Does that mean I d also have to take off any
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                  In message <430E6BBE8858D511B3D000508BF3951AF322C6@UK-STORE1>, Howard
                  Bishop <hbishop@...> writes
                  >Stephen,
                  >
                  >Unless we have to pay to keep it going, I would be an advocate for leaving
                  >it.
                  >
                  >Otherwise, it's as good as saying that the Amateur PBM hobby no longer
                  >exists. For relative newcomers like myself, it sends a message that says
                  >"don't bother, we're no longer open for business". In which case, I might as
                  >well plan to fold my 'zine now.
                  >
                  >I do understand your frustration at the lack of activity though.
                  >
                  >Howard

                  Does that mean I'd also have to take off any reference on dip2000 to the
                  postal hobby and send John Harrington?

                  Also, we get UK Cons advertised here...

                  Tom
                  --
                  Tom Tweedy
                  Diplomacy 2000
                  http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                • Tom Tweedy
                  In message , Ben & Linley Goodale writes ... Er... Mark Boyle debacle ... did I miss
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                    In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                    Goodale <ben_goodale@...> writes
                    >
                    >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some months ago, there
                    >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we were onto
                    >something.

                    Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?

                    Tom
                    --
                    Tom Tweedy
                    Diplomacy 2000
                    http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                  • Ben & Linley Goodale
                    This is true. It doesn t hurt to leave it open. We could always play a game or something. ... From: Howard Bishop To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                      This is true. It doesn't hurt to leave it open. We could always play a game or something.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Howard Bishop
                      To: 'ukpbm@yahoogroups.com'
                      Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 6:31
                      Subject: RE: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


                      Stephen,

                      Unless we have to pay to keep it going, I would be an advocate for leaving
                      it.

                      Otherwise, it's as good as saying that the Amateur PBM hobby no longer
                      exists. For relative newcomers like myself, it sends a message that says
                      "don't bother, we're no longer open for business". In which case, I might as
                      well plan to fold my 'zine now.

                      I do understand your frustration at the lack of activity though.

                      Howard


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                    • Ben & Linley Goodale
                      far too long drawn out and melodramatic to revisit Tom.... ... From: Tom Tweedy To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 9:08 Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                        far too long drawn out and melodramatic to revisit Tom....

                        ...needless to say it fired up the message count for a bit.....think it wa something to do with disputes over zine polls or somesuch.....you know, usual thing...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tom Tweedy
                        To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 9:08
                        Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


                        In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                        Goodale <ben_goodale@...> writes
                        >
                        >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some months ago, there
                        >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we were onto
                        >something.

                        Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?

                        Tom
                        --
                        Tom Tweedy
                        Diplomacy 2000
                        http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/

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                      • Stephen Agar
                        In message , Paul Dowden writes ... No, this service is totally free. It s no hassle to leave it running
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                          In message <sd7dc4d8.000@...>, Paul Dowden
                          <Paul.Dowden@...> writes
                          >If there is a problem paying for the site, I think I could quite easily
                          >incorporate the site (free of course) into mine at
                          >http://chingfordgames1.homestead.com/pbm2.html; you will notice I have
                          >a plug there already for the postal games site.
                          >
                          >Paul Dowden
                          >

                          No, this service is totally free. It's no hassle to leave it running as
                          such - I am just a little worried that people join, see no activity,
                          then leave.

                          How many active amateur zines are they these days? 12-15?
                          There's certainly very little sense of community.
                          How many Dip games going? 20?
                          How's con attendances holding up (rarely been to any since the kids
                          arrived - though I am going to MidCon this year)?

                          BTW - listening to a Nick Harper CD as I type this - great stuff -
                          anyone else like him?

                          Regards

                          --
                          Stephen Agar
                        • Bruce Edwards
                          It all comes down to one question: (imho) what do we want to use this message board for? Most groups I sub to are organised around a particular game and one or
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                            It all comes down to one question: (imho)

                            what do we want to use this message board for?

                            Most groups I sub to are organised around a particular game and one or two linked to a specific hobby. The Monster Island group, for example, contains messages relevant to the pbm games run by ABM (in the US) and KJC (UK). Then there are sub-groups for those playing in a particular area or group so that information can be exchanged. I currently sub to 10 zines... 1 is closing down (C&T), 1 is on 'holiday'. I have just written to another and 2 are web-based. Most have letter columns, some mention or review other zines.

                            Howard has a point. If it's not costing money, keep it open, but if you want to take yourself off the mailing list, then perhaps someone else would step in??

                            Anyway, you've generated a topic of conversation... and a few messages!!
                            ;-)

                            B.

                            psychopath website (for games) - http://www.psychozine.co.uk
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Ben & Linley Goodale
                            To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:29 PM
                            Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


                            far too long drawn out and melodramatic to revisit Tom....

                            ...needless to say it fired up the message count for a bit.....think it wa something to do with disputes over zine polls or somesuch.....you know, usual thing...
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Tom Tweedy
                            To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, 10 September 2002 9:08
                            Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


                            In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                            Goodale <ben_goodale@...> writes
                            >
                            >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some months ago, there
                            >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we were onto
                            >something.

                            Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?

                            Tom
                            --
                            Tom Tweedy
                            Diplomacy 2000
                            http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/

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                          • Stephen Agar
                            In message , Bruce Edwards writes ... Next you will be suggesting that I periodically suggest
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                              In message <002d01c25915$2ae485c0$34e8403e@tinypc>, Bruce Edwards
                              <kactusjak@...> writes
                              >It all comes down to one question: (imho)
                              >
                              >what do we want to use this message board for?
                              >
                              >Most groups I sub to are organised around a particular game and one or
                              >two linked to a specific hobby. The Monster Island group, for example,
                              >contains messages relevant to the pbm games run by ABM (in the US) and
                              >KJC (UK). Then there are sub-groups for those playing in a particular
                              >area or group so that information can be exchanged. I currently sub to
                              >10 zines... 1 is closing down (C&T), 1 is on 'holiday'. I have just
                              >written to another and 2 are web-based. Most have letter columns, some
                              >mention or review other zines.
                              >
                              >Howard has a point. If it's not costing money, keep it open, but if you
                              >want to take yourself off the mailing list, then perhaps someone else
                              >would step in??
                              >
                              >Anyway, you've generated a topic of conversation... and a few messages!!
                              >;-)
                              >

                              Next you will be suggesting that I periodically suggest closing the
                              group every 18 months or so purely to generate postings.

                              What a slander :-)

                              --
                              Stephen Agar
                            • Bruce Edwards
                              No, it s not slander... that s spoken. I think you mean libellous!! ;-) B. psychopath website (for games) - http://www.psychozine.co.uk ... From: Stephen Agar
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 10, 2002
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                                No, it's not slander... that's spoken.
                                I think you mean libellous!!
                                ;-)

                                B.
                                psychopath website (for games) - http://www.psychozine.co.uk
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Stephen Agar
                                To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:11 PM
                                Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Time to say goodbye?


                                In message <002d01c25915$2ae485c0$34e8403e@tinypc>, Bruce Edwards
                                <kactusjak@...> writes
                                >It all comes down to one question: (imho)
                                >
                                >what do we want to use this message board for?
                                >
                                >Most groups I sub to are organised around a particular game and one or
                                >two linked to a specific hobby. The Monster Island group, for example,
                                >contains messages relevant to the pbm games run by ABM (in the US) and
                                >KJC (UK). Then there are sub-groups for those playing in a particular
                                >area or group so that information can be exchanged. I currently sub to
                                >10 zines... 1 is closing down (C&T), 1 is on 'holiday'. I have just
                                >written to another and 2 are web-based. Most have letter columns, some
                                >mention or review other zines.
                                >
                                >Howard has a point. If it's not costing money, keep it open, but if you
                                >want to take yourself off the mailing list, then perhaps someone else
                                >would step in??
                                >
                                >Anyway, you've generated a topic of conversation... and a few messages!!
                                >;-)
                                >

                                Next you will be suggesting that I periodically suggest closing the
                                group every 18 months or so purely to generate postings.

                                What a slander :-)

                                --
                                Stephen Agar

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                              • Mark Boyle
                                Hello Tom, Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess Downes
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 11, 2002
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                                  Hello Tom,

                                  Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                  was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                  Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                  few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                  jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                  four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.

                                  To be concise:

                                  1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                  to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                  ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                  incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                  Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                  well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                  one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                  I'm so bloody great).

                                  2. Bardy ranted thrice before cockcrow that he had not being trying
                                  to goad me into sending him copy for his tatty rag in order to gain
                                  attention for himself...then subsequently admitted it, then wondered
                                  what all the fuss was about...seeming to think that was what normal
                                  people do - forgetting of course that in the real world, as opposed
                                  to the petty & spiteful "friendly hobby", its what actually earns you
                                  a Doc Martin in the balls.

                                  Uncle Tom, Turbonick, Mike Hasbeen & several other rose-tinters were
                                  rather cross with me being so nasty to Bardy & Downes. In fairness, I
                                  can see their point - if I'm going to get involved in a battle of
                                  wits I really ought not to pick on unarmed opponents. But jolly
                                  embarrassing for them one month later, when Pondlife Bardy was
                                  practically coming in his pants because, wait for it, Mango had
                                  reached No.2 in the Zine Poll (on such a massive...ROTFL!...turnout),
                                  proving what I said that the little jerk was a publicity seeking
                                  troll that had thrown his rattle out of the pram because Yours Truly
                                  had refusing to perform for his tatty rag.

                                  3. UKPBM's house muppet Ben Goodale managed to spout similar piffle
                                  ("he was so intense"...oh dear), then promptly apologised - but this
                                  was more to do because he wanted something from me than out of
                                  regret, ie. some old Uni folk names and addresses. Seems the way of
                                  the world these days methinks. I duly obliged with the current
                                  addresses of one Eileen Dougall, Ollie Bath and Simon Biggun, only to
                                  find him wingeing on this board that I hadn't replied, so I sent them
                                  again...nothing more heard since. Ho hum. Par for the course in
                                  hobbyland/life in general - once your usefulness runs out, its ta-ta.

                                  If there was a "debacle" (nice choice of brown-nosing words to your
                                  peer group Ben, you ain't changed much...), it was the unsavoury
                                  spectacle of watching several people opening their mouths and letting
                                  their bellies rumble, then getting all cross for being taken to task
                                  over it. The only one that emerged from it with any dignity was
                                  Stephen Agar, who immediately apologised and drew a line under it.
                                  Not so Bardy, who simply proved what a slimy reptile he is; not so
                                  Downes, who was finally shown up for the lying rat he was & scuttled
                                  off to his hole; and certainly not Goodale, whom to be honest I
                                  really thought a lot better of - suppose those War Chivalry &
                                  Lordship classes never taught him much on the finer points of honour.

                                  Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                  days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                  off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                  night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                  last laugh the longest.

                                  Deagh Dhùrachd,

                                  Mark Boyle
                                  "Pick of the Bunch"
                                  (whenever he gets his finger out...)


                                  --- In ukpbm@y..., Tom Tweedy <tom@l...> wrote:
                                  > In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                  > Goodale <ben_goodale@c...> writes
                                  > >
                                  > >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some
                                  months ago, there
                                  > >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we
                                  were onto
                                  > >something.
                                  >
                                  > Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  > --
                                  > Tom Tweedy
                                  > Diplomacy 2000
                                  > http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                • Stephen Agar
                                  In message , Mark Boyle writes ... Whatever I thought of Joy as person, I think it was a tragedy for her
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 11, 2002
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                                    In message <alofbj+lmq2@...>, Mark Boyle
                                    <markboyle_potb@...> writes
                                    >
                                    >Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                    >days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                    >off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                    >night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                    >last laugh the longest.
                                    >

                                    Whatever I thought of Joy as person, I think it was a tragedy for her
                                    child that she died when he was still so young (only 6 years old?).
                                    Anyone know what happened to Lee?

                                    And what's all this putting my name and the word "dignity" in the same
                                    sentence - are you trying to ruin my reputation? :-)

                                    Regards

                                    --
                                    Stephen Agar
                                  • Howard Bishop
                                    ... Stephen, I understand where you re coming from. When I first joined the hobby a couple of years ago, there were posts to this group almost on a daily
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                      >No, this service is totally free. It's no hassle to leave it running as
                                      >such - I am just a little worried that people join, see no activity,
                                      >then leave.

                                      >How many active amateur zines are they these days? 12-15?
                                      >There's certainly very little sense of community.
                                      >How many Dip games going? 20?
                                      >How's con attendances holding up (rarely been to any since the kids
                                      >arrived - though I am going to MidCon this year)?

                                      >BTW - listening to a Nick Harper CD as I type this - great stuff -
                                      >anyone else like him?


                                      Stephen,

                                      I understand where you're coming from. When I first joined the hobby a
                                      couple of years ago, there were posts to this group almost on a daily basis.
                                      There seemed to be a really vibrant initiative to take PBM to the people at
                                      that time. I agree that unless there are regular posts, newcomers might be
                                      put off. We should either revisit the PBM promotion initiative or use the
                                      group for other things, like advertising new games or general hobby news. If
                                      it wasn't for this group, my zine wouldn't have survived.

                                      BTW. I saw Nick H when I saw Roy H last year. They both played individual
                                      sets and then got together to play a joint set at the end.They're back in
                                      Wycombe again next month. I already have my ticket! I don't have any of
                                      Nick's material. Anything you'd recommend?

                                      Cheers
                                      Howard



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bruce Edwards
                                      But what I don t understand is why he s so upset? If he s got better things to concern myself with these days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                        But what I don't understand is why he's so upset?

                                        If he's got "better things to concern myself with these days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself off..."

                                        then what's the problem??

                                        B.

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Ben & Linley Goodale
                                        To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 12:50 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?


                                        Clearly there's life in the old dog yet.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Mark Boyle
                                        To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 8:16
                                        Subject: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?


                                        Hello Tom,

                                        Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                        was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                        Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                        few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                        jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                        four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.

                                        To be concise:

                                        1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                        to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                        ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                        incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                        Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                        well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                        one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                        I'm so bloody great).

                                        2. Bardy ranted thrice before cockcrow that he had not being trying
                                        to goad me into sending him copy for his tatty rag in order to gain
                                        attention for himself...then subsequently admitted it, then wondered
                                        what all the fuss was about...seeming to think that was what normal
                                        people do - forgetting of course that in the real world, as opposed
                                        to the petty & spiteful "friendly hobby", its what actually earns you
                                        a Doc Martin in the balls.

                                        Uncle Tom, Turbonick, Mike Hasbeen & several other rose-tinters were
                                        rather cross with me being so nasty to Bardy & Downes. In fairness, I
                                        can see their point - if I'm going to get involved in a battle of
                                        wits I really ought not to pick on unarmed opponents. But jolly
                                        embarrassing for them one month later, when Pondlife Bardy was
                                        practically coming in his pants because, wait for it, Mango had
                                        reached No.2 in the Zine Poll (on such a massive...ROTFL!...turnout),
                                        proving what I said that the little jerk was a publicity seeking
                                        troll that had thrown his rattle out of the pram because Yours Truly
                                        had refusing to perform for his tatty rag.

                                        3. UKPBM's house muppet Ben Goodale managed to spout similar piffle
                                        ("he was so intense"...oh dear), then promptly apologised - but this
                                        was more to do because he wanted something from me than out of
                                        regret, ie. some old Uni folk names and addresses. Seems the way of
                                        the world these days methinks. I duly obliged with the current
                                        addresses of one Eileen Dougall, Ollie Bath and Simon Biggun, only to
                                        find him wingeing on this board that I hadn't replied, so I sent them
                                        again...nothing more heard since. Ho hum. Par for the course in
                                        hobbyland/life in general - once your usefulness runs out, its ta-ta.

                                        If there was a "debacle" (nice choice of brown-nosing words to your
                                        peer group Ben, you ain't changed much...), it was the unsavoury
                                        spectacle of watching several people opening their mouths and letting
                                        their bellies rumble, then getting all cross for being taken to task
                                        over it. The only one that emerged from it with any dignity was
                                        Stephen Agar, who immediately apologised and drew a line under it.
                                        Not so Bardy, who simply proved what a slimy reptile he is; not so
                                        Downes, who was finally shown up for the lying rat he was & scuttled
                                        off to his hole; and certainly not Goodale, whom to be honest I
                                        really thought a lot better of - suppose those War Chivalry &
                                        Lordship classes never taught him much on the finer points of honour.

                                        Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                        days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                        off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                        night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                        last laugh the longest.

                                        Deagh Dhùrachd,

                                        Mark Boyle
                                        "Pick of the Bunch"
                                        (whenever he gets his finger out...)


                                        --- In ukpbm@y..., Tom Tweedy <tom@l...> wrote:
                                        > In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                        > Goodale <ben_goodale@c...> writes
                                        > >
                                        > >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some
                                        months ago, there
                                        > >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we
                                        were onto
                                        > >something.
                                        >
                                        > Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?
                                        >
                                        > Tom
                                        > --
                                        > Tom Tweedy
                                        > Diplomacy 2000
                                        > http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/


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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ben & Linley Goodale
                                        Clearly there s life in the old dog yet. ... From: Mark Boyle To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 8:16 Subject: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                          Clearly there's life in the old dog yet.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Mark Boyle
                                          To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 8:16
                                          Subject: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?


                                          Hello Tom,

                                          Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                          was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                          Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                          few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                          jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                          four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.

                                          To be concise:

                                          1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                          to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                          ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                          incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                          Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                          well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                          one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                          I'm so bloody great).

                                          2. Bardy ranted thrice before cockcrow that he had not being trying
                                          to goad me into sending him copy for his tatty rag in order to gain
                                          attention for himself...then subsequently admitted it, then wondered
                                          what all the fuss was about...seeming to think that was what normal
                                          people do - forgetting of course that in the real world, as opposed
                                          to the petty & spiteful "friendly hobby", its what actually earns you
                                          a Doc Martin in the balls.

                                          Uncle Tom, Turbonick, Mike Hasbeen & several other rose-tinters were
                                          rather cross with me being so nasty to Bardy & Downes. In fairness, I
                                          can see their point - if I'm going to get involved in a battle of
                                          wits I really ought not to pick on unarmed opponents. But jolly
                                          embarrassing for them one month later, when Pondlife Bardy was
                                          practically coming in his pants because, wait for it, Mango had
                                          reached No.2 in the Zine Poll (on such a massive...ROTFL!...turnout),
                                          proving what I said that the little jerk was a publicity seeking
                                          troll that had thrown his rattle out of the pram because Yours Truly
                                          had refusing to perform for his tatty rag.

                                          3. UKPBM's house muppet Ben Goodale managed to spout similar piffle
                                          ("he was so intense"...oh dear), then promptly apologised - but this
                                          was more to do because he wanted something from me than out of
                                          regret, ie. some old Uni folk names and addresses. Seems the way of
                                          the world these days methinks. I duly obliged with the current
                                          addresses of one Eileen Dougall, Ollie Bath and Simon Biggun, only to
                                          find him wingeing on this board that I hadn't replied, so I sent them
                                          again...nothing more heard since. Ho hum. Par for the course in
                                          hobbyland/life in general - once your usefulness runs out, its ta-ta.

                                          If there was a "debacle" (nice choice of brown-nosing words to your
                                          peer group Ben, you ain't changed much...), it was the unsavoury
                                          spectacle of watching several people opening their mouths and letting
                                          their bellies rumble, then getting all cross for being taken to task
                                          over it. The only one that emerged from it with any dignity was
                                          Stephen Agar, who immediately apologised and drew a line under it.
                                          Not so Bardy, who simply proved what a slimy reptile he is; not so
                                          Downes, who was finally shown up for the lying rat he was & scuttled
                                          off to his hole; and certainly not Goodale, whom to be honest I
                                          really thought a lot better of - suppose those War Chivalry &
                                          Lordship classes never taught him much on the finer points of honour.

                                          Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                          days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                          off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                          night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                          last laugh the longest.

                                          Deagh Dhùrachd,

                                          Mark Boyle
                                          "Pick of the Bunch"
                                          (whenever he gets his finger out...)


                                          --- In ukpbm@y..., Tom Tweedy <tom@l...> wrote:
                                          > In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                          > Goodale <ben_goodale@c...> writes
                                          > >
                                          > >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some
                                          months ago, there
                                          > >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we
                                          were onto
                                          > >something.
                                          >
                                          > Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?
                                          >
                                          > Tom
                                          > --
                                          > Tom Tweedy
                                          > Diplomacy 2000
                                          > http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/


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                                        • Tom Tweedy
                                          In message , Mark Boyle writes ... [Snip] But all this happened YEARS ago... why on earth would Ben
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                            In message <alofbj+lmq2@...>, Mark Boyle
                                            <markboyle_potb@...> writes
                                            >Hello Tom,
                                            >
                                            >Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                            >was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                            >Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                            >few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                            >jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                            >four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.
                                            >
                                            >To be concise:
                                            >
                                            >1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                            >to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                            >ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                            >incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                            >Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                            >well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                            >one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                            >I'm so bloody great).

                                            [Snip]

                                            But all this happened YEARS ago... why on earth would Ben Goodale want
                                            to mention it again now? Cooo some people have long memories.

                                            Tom
                                            --
                                            Tom Tweedy
                                            Diplomacy 2000
                                            http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                          • Tom Tweedy
                                            In message , Stephen Agar writes ... Too late Mr A - we all know now that Mark is a fan. :-) Tom -- Tom
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                              In message <su4$eKN0w8f9EwyR@...>, Stephen Agar
                                              <stephen@...> writes

                                              >And what's all this putting my name and the word "dignity" in the same
                                              >sentence - are you trying to ruin my reputation? :-)

                                              Too late Mr A - we all know now that Mark is a fan. :-)

                                              Tom
                                              --
                                              Tom Tweedy
                                              Diplomacy 2000
                                              http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                            • Tom Tweedy
                                              In message , Ben & Linley Goodale writes ... Yes indeed... but you just HAD to poke him with
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                                In message <006501c25a52$9c6e7d20$24624fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                                Goodale <ben_goodale@...> writes
                                                >Clearly there's life in the old dog yet.

                                                Yes indeed... but you just HAD to poke him with a stick didn't you. :-)

                                                Tom

                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: Mark Boyle
                                                > To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 8:16
                                                > Subject: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hello Tom,
                                                >
                                                > Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                                > was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                                > Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                                > few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                                > jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                                > four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.
                                                >
                                                > To be concise:
                                                >
                                                > 1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                                > to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                                > ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                                > incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                                > Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                                > well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                                > one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                                > I'm so bloody great).
                                                >
                                                > 2. Bardy ranted thrice before cockcrow that he had not being trying
                                                > to goad me into sending him copy for his tatty rag in order to gain
                                                > attention for himself...then subsequently admitted it, then wondered
                                                > what all the fuss was about...seeming to think that was what normal
                                                > people do - forgetting of course that in the real world, as opposed
                                                > to the petty & spiteful "friendly hobby", its what actually earns you
                                                > a Doc Martin in the balls.
                                                >
                                                > Uncle Tom, Turbonick, Mike Hasbeen & several other rose-tinters were
                                                > rather cross with me being so nasty to Bardy & Downes. In fairness, I
                                                > can see their point - if I'm going to get involved in a battle of
                                                > wits I really ought not to pick on unarmed opponents. But jolly
                                                > embarrassing for them one month later, when Pondlife Bardy was
                                                > practically coming in his pants because, wait for it, Mango had
                                                > reached No.2 in the Zine Poll (on such a massive...ROTFL!...turnout),
                                                > proving what I said that the little jerk was a publicity seeking
                                                > troll that had thrown his rattle out of the pram because Yours Truly
                                                > had refusing to perform for his tatty rag.
                                                >
                                                > 3. UKPBM's house muppet Ben Goodale managed to spout similar piffle
                                                > ("he was so intense"...oh dear), then promptly apologised - but this
                                                > was more to do because he wanted something from me than out of
                                                > regret, ie. some old Uni folk names and addresses. Seems the way of
                                                > the world these days methinks. I duly obliged with the current
                                                > addresses of one Eileen Dougall, Ollie Bath and Simon Biggun, only to
                                                > find him wingeing on this board that I hadn't replied, so I sent them
                                                > again...nothing more heard since. Ho hum. Par for the course in
                                                > hobbyland/life in general - once your usefulness runs out, its ta-ta.
                                                >
                                                > If there was a "debacle" (nice choice of brown-nosing words to your
                                                > peer group Ben, you ain't changed much...), it was the unsavoury
                                                > spectacle of watching several people opening their mouths and letting
                                                > their bellies rumble, then getting all cross for being taken to task
                                                > over it. The only one that emerged from it with any dignity was
                                                > Stephen Agar, who immediately apologised and drew a line under it.
                                                > Not so Bardy, who simply proved what a slimy reptile he is; not so
                                                > Downes, who was finally shown up for the lying rat he was & scuttled
                                                > off to his hole; and certainly not Goodale, whom to be honest I
                                                > really thought a lot better of - suppose those War Chivalry &
                                                > Lordship classes never taught him much on the finer points of honour.
                                                >
                                                > Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                                > days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                                > off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                                > night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                                > last laugh the longest.
                                                >
                                                > Deagh Dhùrachd,
                                                >
                                                > Mark Boyle
                                                > "Pick of the Bunch"
                                                > (whenever he gets his finger out...)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In ukpbm@y..., Tom Tweedy <tom@l...> wrote:
                                                > > In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                                > > Goodale <ben_goodale@c...> writes
                                                > > >
                                                > > >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some
                                                > months ago, there
                                                > > >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we
                                                > were onto
                                                > > >something.
                                                > >
                                                > > Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?
                                                > >
                                                > > Tom
                                                > > --
                                                > > Tom Tweedy
                                                > > Diplomacy 2000
                                                > > http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                                >
                                                >
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                                                --
                                                Tom Tweedy
                                                Diplomacy 2000
                                                http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                              • Stephen Agar
                                                In message , Howard Bishop writes ... I was very impressed with Light at the end
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 12, 2002
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                                                  In message <430E6BBE8858D511B3D000508BF3951AF322D7@UK-STORE1>, Howard
                                                  Bishop <hbishop@...> writes
                                                  >>No, this service is totally free. It's no hassle to leave it running as
                                                  >>such - I am just a little worried that people join, see no activity,
                                                  >>then leave.
                                                  >
                                                  >>How many active amateur zines are they these days? 12-15?
                                                  >>There's certainly very little sense of community.
                                                  >>How many Dip games going? 20?
                                                  >>How's con attendances holding up (rarely been to any since the kids
                                                  >>arrived - though I am going to MidCon this year)?
                                                  >
                                                  >>BTW - listening to a Nick Harper CD as I type this - great stuff -
                                                  >>anyone else like him?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Stephen,
                                                  >
                                                  >I understand where you're coming from. When I first joined the hobby a
                                                  >couple of years ago, there were posts to this group almost on a daily basis.
                                                  >There seemed to be a really vibrant initiative to take PBM to the people at
                                                  >that time. I agree that unless there are regular posts, newcomers might be
                                                  >put off. We should either revisit the PBM promotion initiative or use the
                                                  >group for other things, like advertising new games or general hobby news. If
                                                  >it wasn't for this group, my zine wouldn't have survived.
                                                  >
                                                  >BTW. I saw Nick H when I saw Roy H last year. They both played individual
                                                  >sets and then got together to play a joint set at the end.They're back in
                                                  >Wycombe again next month. I already have my ticket! I don't have any of
                                                  >Nick's material. Anything you'd recommend?
                                                  >
                                                  >Cheers
                                                  >Howard
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  I was very impressed with "Light at the end of the Kennel" ( a
                                                  mini-album) and "Seed" - which are the only 2 I have at present.
                                                  However, I was sufficiently impressed to order the rest of his back
                                                  catalogue from Amazon.

                                                  He's a bit like an acoustic Manic Street Preachers.

                                                  Ah, Roy Harper. Anyone remember the classic song "The Black Cloud of
                                                  Islam"? It's a wonder he hasn't been fatwa'd.

                                                  --
                                                  Stephen Agar
                                                • Ben & Linley Goodale
                                                  Well, it seems remarkably easy to stir him up. And you get such good value, you know a throwaway line and you get about two pages of A4. I m sure he must
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 13, 2002
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                                                    Well, it seems remarkably easy to stir him up. And you get such good value, you know a throwaway line and you get about two pages of A4.

                                                    I'm sure he must either have a good spy or perhaps he is also subbed under a nom de plume so he can flounce dramatically in and out.
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: Tom Tweedy
                                                    To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:20
                                                    Subject: Re: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?


                                                    In message <006501c25a52$9c6e7d20$24624fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                                    Goodale <ben_goodale@...> writes
                                                    >Clearly there's life in the old dog yet.

                                                    Yes indeed... but you just HAD to poke him with a stick didn't you. :-)

                                                    Tom

                                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                                    > From: Mark Boyle
                                                    > To: ukpbm@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Thursday, 12 September 2002 8:16
                                                    > Subject: [ukpbm] Re: Time to say goodbye?
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Hello Tom,
                                                    >
                                                    > Well, what your resident Geddy Lee lookalike Ben Goodale is on about
                                                    > was actually last November/December time (I think), involved Princess
                                                    > Downes Queen of Hearts, Steve Agar & Alex Bardy deciding to concoct a
                                                    > few fantasies about your truly on the board, then find themselves
                                                    > jolly surprised when I turned up in person to take them to task after
                                                    > four subscribers decided to forward me the contents.
                                                    >
                                                    > To be concise:
                                                    >
                                                    > 1. Downes took off when I revealed the hypocrite's own failed attempt
                                                    > to fiddle the ZOTY Poll many moons back whilst continuing to moralise
                                                    > ad nauseum over the 1987 Great Zine Poll Swindle (The Stoat
                                                    > incidentally grumbled to me on the phone this year that Bowen and
                                                    > Downes did a far better job in wrecking the poll than I ever did -
                                                    > well, he did get the two biggest turnouts ever thanks to Yours Truly,
                                                    > one doesn't like to boast but what did he ever do without me...God,
                                                    > I'm so bloody great).
                                                    >
                                                    > 2. Bardy ranted thrice before cockcrow that he had not being trying
                                                    > to goad me into sending him copy for his tatty rag in order to gain
                                                    > attention for himself...then subsequently admitted it, then wondered
                                                    > what all the fuss was about...seeming to think that was what normal
                                                    > people do - forgetting of course that in the real world, as opposed
                                                    > to the petty & spiteful "friendly hobby", its what actually earns you
                                                    > a Doc Martin in the balls.
                                                    >
                                                    > Uncle Tom, Turbonick, Mike Hasbeen & several other rose-tinters were
                                                    > rather cross with me being so nasty to Bardy & Downes. In fairness, I
                                                    > can see their point - if I'm going to get involved in a battle of
                                                    > wits I really ought not to pick on unarmed opponents. But jolly
                                                    > embarrassing for them one month later, when Pondlife Bardy was
                                                    > practically coming in his pants because, wait for it, Mango had
                                                    > reached No.2 in the Zine Poll (on such a massive...ROTFL!...turnout),
                                                    > proving what I said that the little jerk was a publicity seeking
                                                    > troll that had thrown his rattle out of the pram because Yours Truly
                                                    > had refusing to perform for his tatty rag.
                                                    >
                                                    > 3. UKPBM's house muppet Ben Goodale managed to spout similar piffle
                                                    > ("he was so intense"...oh dear), then promptly apologised - but this
                                                    > was more to do because he wanted something from me than out of
                                                    > regret, ie. some old Uni folk names and addresses. Seems the way of
                                                    > the world these days methinks. I duly obliged with the current
                                                    > addresses of one Eileen Dougall, Ollie Bath and Simon Biggun, only to
                                                    > find him wingeing on this board that I hadn't replied, so I sent them
                                                    > again...nothing more heard since. Ho hum. Par for the course in
                                                    > hobbyland/life in general - once your usefulness runs out, its ta-ta.
                                                    >
                                                    > If there was a "debacle" (nice choice of brown-nosing words to your
                                                    > peer group Ben, you ain't changed much...), it was the unsavoury
                                                    > spectacle of watching several people opening their mouths and letting
                                                    > their bellies rumble, then getting all cross for being taken to task
                                                    > over it. The only one that emerged from it with any dignity was
                                                    > Stephen Agar, who immediately apologised and drew a line under it.
                                                    > Not so Bardy, who simply proved what a slimy reptile he is; not so
                                                    > Downes, who was finally shown up for the lying rat he was & scuttled
                                                    > off to his hole; and certainly not Goodale, whom to be honest I
                                                    > really thought a lot better of - suppose those War Chivalry &
                                                    > Lordship classes never taught him much on the finer points of honour.
                                                    >
                                                    > Not to worry though, I've better things to concern myself with these
                                                    > days than the petty bitchery of a failing hobby that's killed itself
                                                    > off...and having discovered the fate of one Joy Hibbert only last
                                                    > night, I believe that what goes around come around, & we who laugh
                                                    > last laugh the longest.
                                                    >
                                                    > Deagh Dhùrachd,
                                                    >
                                                    > Mark Boyle
                                                    > "Pick of the Bunch"
                                                    > (whenever he gets his finger out...)
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In ukpbm@y..., Tom Tweedy <tom@l...> wrote:
                                                    > > In message <005d01c258a8$e23a0b40$fc644fcb@goodale>, Ben & Linley
                                                    > > Goodale <ben_goodale@c...> writes
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >Hmm. You have a point. Since the Mark Boyle debacle of some
                                                    > months ago, there
                                                    > > >has been resolute silence, though I thought for a minute there we
                                                    > were onto
                                                    > > >something.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Er... 'Mark Boyle debacle'... did I miss something here?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Tom
                                                    > > --
                                                    > > Tom Tweedy
                                                    > > Diplomacy 2000
                                                    > > http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/
                                                    >
                                                    >
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                                                    --
                                                    Tom Tweedy
                                                    Diplomacy 2000
                                                    http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk/dip2000/

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