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Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: [Fwd: Project in Germany] - age discrimination legislation

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  • Mark Tillotson
    ... In fact this is now UK law not just Glyn s opinion! Although I haven t read enough to know if the law applies to one-off work contracts or part-time
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 19, 2008
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      Glyn Hanton wrote:
      > by definition it IS discriminatory to require that someone be capable of
      > performing a task before you employ them. Discrimination as a word is
      > not the problem - it simply means 'making a choice'. But that's simply a
      > semantic pit because discrimination as a form of social divide can be a
      > problem.
      >
      > I think it's reasonable to specify the qualities you require (which may
      > be associated with youth, or a specific sex or culture) but it is not
      > reasonable to specify the age, sex, or culture/race.

      In fact this is now UK law not just Glyn's opinion! Although I haven't
      read enough to know if the law applies to one-off work contracts or part-time
      employment.

      http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/discrimination/age-discrimination/index.html

      >
      > ie, you can say you want someone who's vibrant, enthusiastic, energetic
      > and willing to learn, and be able to get on with the current group, but
      > saying "must be under 25" is out of order. Likewise, you can say, must
      > be responsible, mature, have experience of X, Y, and Z, but saying over
      > 25 is out of order.
      >
      > If you want to give someone a helping hand who doesn't have lots of
      > experience, then specify the lack of experience, and not the age.
      >
      > It's possible part of the problem here is a desire for simplicity (ie,
      > it's easier to say 'under 25' than all the above) or simply a lack of
      > desire to trudge through the mass of political correctness. I personally
      > think that as long as the intent is good, which I'm reasonably sure it
      > was from the original post, then we're at least heading in the right
      > direction.
      >
      >
      >
      > Rob Thorburn wrote:
      >> i prefer to think of it as positive discrimination - older performers
      >> have had time to develop skills, contacts, and create projects.
      >> Younger performers have not had these opportunities, and so need the
      >> chance to go and do interesting things. there are certainly a LOT of
      >> projects you can't get into without a big wodge of experience. is that
      >> request for experience also discrimination?
      >>
      >>
      The provisions in UK legislation for positive discrimination wouldn't
      cover this case from my (quick) reading, requiring existing highly skewed
      demographic or active de-facto discrimination to justify positive discrimination...

      But this is in Germany, don't know anything about the law there.

      __Mark
    • Jonathan the Jester
      Positive discrimination is DISCRIMINATION. Many older people still have not had the opportunities. Here at The Table Top Circus we work with a lot of younger
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 19, 2008
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        Positive discrimination is DISCRIMINATION. Many older people still have not had the opportunities.

        Here at The Table Top Circus we work with a lot of younger people, but we also work with older people. Older people face far more discrimination than you could possibly imagine...

        I don't agree with it. We have a man in his sixties and he is often overlooked, people do not want him half of the time and we really have to work at changing peoples attitudes towards the things that he does. Yet he is in our opinion an fairly new and developing talent who deserves every opportunity we can give him.






        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rob Thorburn
        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:12 AM
        Subject: [uk_jugglers] Re: [Fwd: Project in Germany]


        i prefer to think of it as positive discrimination - older performers
        have had time to develop skills, contacts, and create projects.
        Younger performers have not had these opportunities, and so need the
        chance to go and do interesting things. there are certainly a LOT of
        projects you can't get into without a big wodge of experience. is that
        request for experience also discrimination?

        --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan the Jester"
        <j.jester@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hmm anti racist, anti sexist, pro ageist.
        >
        > Agism is a very real issue.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Glyn Hanton
        > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:11 PM
        > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] [Fwd: Project in Germany]
        >
        >
        > Charlie Hull wrote:
        > > Charlie Hull wrote:
        > >
        > >> Someone might find this interesting - a project in Germany is
        looking
        > >> for an artist.
        > >>
        > >> Cheers
        > >>
        > >> Charlie
        > >>
        > >>
        > > Apologies, didn't realise the list stripped attachments: there
        was a
        > > Word attachment as well, but it doesn't say much more than the
        following....
        > >
        > > "Ladies and Gentleman
        > >
        > > We are an organization from Germany (Berlin) called Interkunst
        e.V..
        > > which organises the international theatre and music project
        "INSTANT
        > > ACTS against violence and racism".
        > >
        > > At the moment we are looking for one juggler / circus artist for
        our
        > > next tour. The person should be not older than 28 years.
        > ageist bastards
        >
        > ;o)
        >
        > --
        > Glyn
        > Loaded Dice Design and Media
        > www.loadeddice.co.uk
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        15/08/2008 05:58
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






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      • Charlie Hull
        While I personally deplore ageism, and have also worked with older people, this particular project is a *youth theatre project*. This perhaps wasn t mentioned
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 20, 2008
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          While I personally deplore ageism, and have also worked with older
          people, this particular project is a *youth theatre project*. This
          perhaps wasn't mentioned in the original email, but was said in the Word
          attachment that I mentioned. The age limits were 17-28. It's almost
          certain that the funding was specifically for youth theatre and the
          project thus designed specifically for young people.

          C


          Jonathan the Jester wrote:
          > Positive discrimination is DISCRIMINATION. Many older people still have not had the opportunities.
          >
          > Here at The Table Top Circus we work with a lot of younger people, but we also work with older people. Older people face far more discrimination than you could possibly imagine...
          >
          > I don't agree with it. We have a man in his sixties and he is often overlooked, people do not want him half of the time and we really have to work at changing peoples attitudes towards the things that he does. Yet he is in our opinion an fairly new and developing talent who deserves every opportunity we can give him.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Rob Thorburn
          > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:12 AM
          > Subject: [uk_jugglers] Re: [Fwd: Project in Germany]
          >
          >
          > i prefer to think of it as positive discrimination - older performers
          > have had time to develop skills, contacts, and create projects.
          > Younger performers have not had these opportunities, and so need the
          > chance to go and do interesting things. there are certainly a LOT of
          > projects you can't get into without a big wodge of experience. is that
          > request for experience also discrimination?
          >
          > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan the Jester"
          > <j.jester@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hmm anti racist, anti sexist, pro ageist.
          > >
          > > Agism is a very real issue.
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Glyn Hanton
          > > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:11 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] [Fwd: Project in Germany]
          > >
          > >
          > > Charlie Hull wrote:
          > > > Charlie Hull wrote:
          > > >
          > > >> Someone might find this interesting - a project in Germany is
          > looking
          > > >> for an artist.
          > > >>
          > > >> Cheers
          > > >>
          > > >> Charlie
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > > Apologies, didn't realise the list stripped attachments: there
          > was a
          > > > Word attachment as well, but it doesn't say much more than the
          > following....
          > > >
          > > > "Ladies and Gentleman
          > > >
          > > > We are an organization from Germany (Berlin) called Interkunst
          > e.V..
          > > > which organises the international theatre and music project
          > "INSTANT
          > > > ACTS against violence and racism".
          > > >
          > > > At the moment we are looking for one juggler / circus artist for
          > our
          > > > next tour. The person should be not older than 28 years.
          > > ageist bastards
          > >
          > > ;o)
          > >
          > > --
          > > Glyn
          > > Loaded Dice Design and Media
          > > www.loadeddice.co.uk
          > >
        • Jonathan the Jester
          I fully support he aims of youth theatre. Hurrah! And well done to you Charlie for posting the opportunity. Your excellent work with people of all cultures,
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 20, 2008
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            I fully support he aims of youth theatre. Hurrah!

            And well done to you Charlie for posting the opportunity. Your excellent work with people of all cultures, race, age and ability is well noted and quite rightly highly regarded.

            The debate on the side started with a tongue in cheek remark by Glyn and I just could not resist.

            So I apologise and hope that there is somebody out there who can benefit from this opportunity.

            Jonathan



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Charlie Hull
            To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:34 AM
            Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: [Fwd: Project in Germany]


            While I personally deplore ageism, and have also worked with older
            people, this particular project is a *youth theatre project*. This
            perhaps wasn't mentioned in the original email, but was said in the Word
            attachment that I mentioned. The age limits were 17-28. It's almost
            certain that the funding was specifically for youth theatre and the
            project thus designed specifically for young people.

            C

            Jonathan the Jester wrote:
            > Positive discrimination is DISCRIMINATION. Many older people still have not had the opportunities.
            >
            > Here at The Table Top Circus we work with a lot of younger people, but we also work with older people. Older people face far more discrimination than you could possibly imagine...
            >
            > I don't agree with it. We have a man in his sixties and he is often overlooked, people do not want him half of the time and we really have to work at changing peoples attitudes towards the things that he does. Yet he is in our opinion an fairly new and developing talent who deserves every opportunity we can give him.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Rob Thorburn
            > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:12 AM
            > Subject: [uk_jugglers] Re: [Fwd: Project in Germany]
            >
            >
            > i prefer to think of it as positive discrimination - older performers
            > have had time to develop skills, contacts, and create projects.
            > Younger performers have not had these opportunities, and so need the
            > chance to go and do interesting things. there are certainly a LOT of
            > projects you can't get into without a big wodge of experience. is that
            > request for experience also discrimination?
            >
            > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan the Jester"
            > <j.jester@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hmm anti racist, anti sexist, pro ageist.
            > >
            > > Agism is a very real issue.
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Glyn Hanton
            > > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:11 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] [Fwd: Project in Germany]
            > >
            > >
            > > Charlie Hull wrote:
            > > > Charlie Hull wrote:
            > > >
            > > >> Someone might find this interesting - a project in Germany is
            > looking
            > > >> for an artist.
            > > >>
            > > >> Cheers
            > > >>
            > > >> Charlie
            > > >>
            > > >>
            > > > Apologies, didn't realise the list stripped attachments: there
            > was a
            > > > Word attachment as well, but it doesn't say much more than the
            > following....
            > > >
            > > > "Ladies and Gentleman
            > > >
            > > > We are an organization from Germany (Berlin) called Interkunst
            > e.V..
            > > > which organises the international theatre and music project
            > "INSTANT
            > > > ACTS against violence and racism".
            > > >
            > > > At the moment we are looking for one juggler / circus artist for
            > our
            > > > next tour. The person should be not older than 28 years.
            > > ageist bastards
            > >
            > > ;o)
            > >
            > > --
            > > Glyn
            > > Loaded Dice Design and Media
            > > www.loadeddice.co.uk
            > >





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