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Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation

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  • Paul Seward
    ... Dear all concerned. Please take personal gripes, infighting and internal team politics off list. Tim that means you, but Mini that *also* means you. There
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
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      --On 31 March 2008 11:19 +0100 Mini Mansell <mini@...> wrote:

      > Stop making a tit of yourself .

      Dear all concerned.

      Please take personal gripes, infighting and internal team politics
      off list. Tim that means you, but Mini that *also* means you.

      There is space for a *constructive* thread about what went well
      and/or badly, how best to meet the requirements of any funding
      secured etc - but I personally thing that jugconorg is a better
      venue for such a discussion - and Charlie is right that a little
      time and a little perspective would greatly enhance the result.

      It's a pity that the first post-bjc thread on UK-J is about what
      went wrong rather than "Yay! I've just got back from BJC! I had
      a great time! It was my first BJC it were *awesome*"

      Seriously guys, sort it out amongst yourselves, off list.

      -Paul
    • Kester the Jester
      Mini, Whilst not wishing to get involved in the personal politics involved in this BJC, I and I m sure other potential organisers of forthcoming BJCs would
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
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        Mini,

        Whilst not wishing to get involved in the personal politics involved in this BJC, I and I'm sure other potential organisers of forthcoming BJCs would like to know if there is any substance in what Tim says. In particular has a funding source been jeopardised by BJC08? £20K is a lot of money to lose for events due to bickering.

        Nigel
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Mini Mansell
        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:19 AM
        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation


        my final say on this is.tim get over it. You where not part of the
        core team for at least the last six months. Your ability to function
        in a team without leading is limited. Your ability to take a task to
        completion is more limited. You where more or less sacked and now your
        crying about it in public. Stop making a tit of yourself .

        On 3/31/08, Tim Woolliscroft <timfooleryuk@...> wrote:
        > stating that the business meeting is never an evaluation meeting is
        > just a plain lie , every other bjc business meeting that i have been
        > to has been an opportunity to reflect on what went well what was not
        > done so well and how things could be improved in the future , this
        > year was the first bjc business meeting that i've been to that has
        > been just pure spin
        >
        > my guess is that knowing that there were issues that would likely to
        > arive this years core team delibedrately tried to manipulate the
        > situation so that these issues were not raised
        >
        > ultimately this control and manipulation is my main issue with the
        > way this years bjc has been run ,
        >
        > i'm very glad that the vast majority of people had a great time ,
        > i'm one of a group of people who have been working very hard all year
        > trying to make this convention work - i would however have been
        > prepared to put in more had i as part of the team been given some
        > sence of ownership over the event , call me an old hippy but i for
        > one work far better given freedom , responsability ownership and the
        > potential to influence
        >
        > the dictatorial way that the running of this years bjc has been run
        > has resulted in a lot of people who would have liked to have
        > contributed more being prevented from doing so
        >
        > re the team not having a clear understanding of the implications of
        > the grant - as someone who has been part of this core team for most
        > of the 12 months i did have a thorough understanding of this ,
        > which i also passed on to the rest of the team ,
        > I have been told that i was deliberately excluded from the core team
        > during the bjc for fear that i might have tried to take over and that
        > i had an agenda - my main agenda is that £20,500 of arts council
        > funding brings obligations , obligations which the rest of the team
        > seemed to largely ignore , i hope this does not prevent the bjc
        > recieving more funding in the future
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Mini Mansell" <mini@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > it is never an evaluation meeting its am opportunity to thank this
        > > years team and to vote on next years location . My very first
        > request
        > > at the meeting was that any criticism would be ignored and to pass
        > it
        > > on constructively to next years team,
        > >
        > > On 3/30/08, Rob Stone <rob@...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > as one of the team of organisers its good to hear that our hard
        > work
        > > > > paid off , most people seemed to have a really good time
        > > >
        > > > this is a bit harsh - i'd say more than most - i'd say the VAST
        > majority
        > > >
        > > > I had a good time in a fantastic venue - from a team who obvioulsy
        > > > put in a huge amount of work.
        > > >
        > > > I agree the 'busines mtg' was a shambles and waste of time. I'd
        > like to
        > > > offer a constructive suggestion which is that the busines mtg is
        > chaired
        > > > by a member of the previous years team (eg peachie who was right
        > there)
        > > > who will understand what has been involved (there re of course
        > many other
        > > > respected appropriate people). I also think an agenda (which
        > could include
        > > > standing item - ones which are raised each year - should be
        > agreed by the
        > > > orgs beforehand and quickly run through.
        > > >
        > > > Having the mtg after such a great show was inspired BTW.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ACTION POINT:
        > > > Decide an agenda and appoint an independednt chair well in
        > advance of the
        > > > event
        > > >
        > > > > - connected to this i would have liked to have been able to
        > > > > contribute more to the bjc , but as i said my role was
        > deliberately
        > > > > restricted , i also know others who would have liked to
        > contribute
        > > > > more but were prevented from doing so
        > > >
        > > > team membership + internal politics are not going to be served or
        > resolved
        > > > by discussion here !
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > re justifying the funding we recieved in particular
        > > > > - we should not have restricted the tickets available to the
        > public
        > > > > in the way we did
        > > > snip
        > > > > - we should have recorded public attendence / feedback
        > > >
        > > > Action Point:
        > > > So we need to make clear to the orgs of the next event *exactly*
        > what the
        > > > terms of any grant are and what the implications are.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Rob.
        > > > --
        > > > Rob Stone. Dept Psychology. University of York. YO10 5DD
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >





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      • Dave Barnes
        ... Well said. And to add to that, please remember that posting stuff on the internet means it s there for all to read, and it s very easy to search for
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          On 31/03/2008, Paul Seward <paul.seward@...> wrote:

          > Seriously guys, sort it out amongst yourselves, off list.

          Well said. And to add to that, please remember that posting stuff on
          the internet means it's there for all to read, and it's very easy to
          search for later. There are things in this thread that are
          potentially harmful for future events and funding. None of us want
          that.

          Dave
        • Peachi - Pete
          I think the text below is exactly what Tim is talking about Mini. You re great Mini, but cant bully people like that. Tim has a right to air his thoughts and
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I think the text below is exactly what Tim is talking about Mini. You're
            great Mini, but cant bully people like that.
            Tim has a right to air his thoughts and look for feedback. Its not up to you
            to let him or not. Particualrly as he is focusig on an area that is
            important to him and the Bjc.
            I think if we keep it constructive then it may be helpful.
            I agree with Rob that an independent chair will be more appropriate next
            time at the meeting. It does serve more of a purpose then Mini made out.

            Basically though, I think the convention went really well. Well done Liz
            and all ;)
            I hope we can take some lessons on to improve future years.

            Cheese, Peachi

            -----Original Message-----
            From: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com]On
            Behalf Of Mini Mansell
            Sent: 31 March 2008 11:19
            To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com hat is exactly what Tim is talking about
            Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation


            my final say on this is.tim get over it. You where not part of the
            core team for at least the last six months. Your ability to function
            in a team without leading is limited. Your ability to take a task to
            completion is more limited. You where more or less sacked and now your
            crying about it in public. Stop making a tit of yourself .

            On 3/31/08, Tim Woolliscroft <timfooleryuk@...> wrote:
            > stating that the business meeting is never an evaluation meeting is
            > just a plain lie , every other bjc business meeting that i have been
            > to has been an opportunity to reflect on what went well what was not
            > done so well and how things could be improved in the future , this
            > year was the first bjc business meeting that i've been to that has
            > been just pure spin
            >
            > my guess is that knowing that there were issues that would likely to
            > arive this years core team delibedrately tried to manipulate the
            > situation so that these issues were not raised
            >
            > ultimately this control and manipulation is my main issue with the
            > way this years bjc has been run ,
            >
            > i'm very glad that the vast majority of people had a great time ,
            > i'm one of a group of people who have been working very hard all year
            > trying to make this convention work - i would however have been
            > prepared to put in more had i as part of the team been given some
            > sence of ownership over the event , call me an old hippy but i for
            > one work far better given freedom , responsability ownership and the
            > potential to influence
            >
            > the dictatorial way that the running of this years bjc has been run
            > has resulted in a lot of people who would have liked to have
            > contributed more being prevented from doing so
            >
            > re the team not having a clear understanding of the implications of
            > the grant - as someone who has been part of this core team for most
            > of the 12 months i did have a thorough understanding of this ,
            > which i also passed on to the rest of the team ,
            > I have been told that i was deliberately excluded from the core team
            > during the bjc for fear that i might have tried to take over and that
            > i had an agenda - my main agenda is that £20,500 of arts council
            > funding brings obligations , obligations which the rest of the team
            > seemed to largely ignore , i hope this does not prevent the bjc
            > recieving more funding in the future
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Mini Mansell" <mini@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > it is never an evaluation meeting its am opportunity to thank this
            > > years team and to vote on next years location . My very first
            > request
            > > at the meeting was that any criticism would be ignored and to pass
            > it
            > > on constructively to next years team,
            > >
            > > On 3/30/08, Rob Stone <rob@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > as one of the team of organisers its good to hear that our hard
            > work
            > > > > paid off , most people seemed to have a really good time
            > > >
            > > > this is a bit harsh - i'd say more than most - i'd say the VAST
            > majority
            > > >
            > > > I had a good time in a fantastic venue - from a team who obvioulsy
            > > > put in a huge amount of work.
            > > >
            > > > I agree the 'busines mtg' was a shambles and waste of time. I'd
            > like to
            > > > offer a constructive suggestion which is that the busines mtg is
            > chaired
            > > > by a member of the previous years team (eg peachie who was right
            > there)
            > > > who will understand what has been involved (there re of course
            > many other
            > > > respected appropriate people). I also think an agenda (which
            > could include
            > > > standing item - ones which are raised each year - should be
            > agreed by the
            > > > orgs beforehand and quickly run through.
            > > >
            > > > Having the mtg after such a great show was inspired BTW.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ACTION POINT:
            > > > Decide an agenda and appoint an independednt chair well in
            > advance of the
            > > > event
            > > >
            > > > > - connected to this i would have liked to have been able to
            > > > > contribute more to the bjc , but as i said my role was
            > deliberately
            > > > > restricted , i also know others who would have liked to
            > contribute
            > > > > more but were prevented from doing so
            > > >
            > > > team membership + internal politics are not going to be served or
            > resolved
            > > > by discussion here !
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > re justifying the funding we recieved in particular
            > > > > - we should not have restricted the tickets available to the
            > public
            > > > > in the way we did
            > > > snip
            > > > > - we should have recorded public attendence / feedback
            > > >
            > > > Action Point:
            > > > So we need to make clear to the orgs of the next event *exactly*
            > what the
            > > > terms of any grant are and what the implications are.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Rob.
            > > > --
            > > > Rob Stone. Dept Psychology. University of York. YO10 5DD
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mini Mansell
            i said i would not post about this. I am saying nothing more on this subject at all.
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              i said i would not post about this. I am saying nothing more on this
              subject at all.

              On 3/31/08, Peachi - Pete <peachi@...> wrote:
              > I think the text below is exactly what Tim is talking about Mini. You're
              > great Mini, but cant bully people like that.
              > Tim has a right to air his thoughts and look for feedback. Its not up to you
              > to let him or not. Particualrly as he is focusig on an area that is
              > important to him and the Bjc.
              > I think if we keep it constructive then it may be helpful.
              > I agree with Rob that an independent chair will be more appropriate next
              > time at the meeting. It does serve more of a purpose then Mini made out.
              >
              > Basically though, I think the convention went really well. Well done Liz
              > and all ;)
              > I hope we can take some lessons on to improve future years.
              >
              > Cheese, Peachi
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com]On
              > Behalf Of Mini Mansell
              > Sent: 31 March 2008 11:19
              > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com hat is exactly what Tim is talking about
              > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation
              >
              >
              > my final say on this is.tim get over it. You where not part of the
              > core team for at least the last six months. Your ability to function
              > in a team without leading is limited. Your ability to take a task to
              > completion is more limited. You where more or less sacked and now your
              > crying about it in public. Stop making a tit of yourself .
              >
              > On 3/31/08, Tim Woolliscroft <timfooleryuk@...> wrote:
              > > stating that the business meeting is never an evaluation meeting is
              > > just a plain lie , every other bjc business meeting that i have been
              > > to has been an opportunity to reflect on what went well what was not
              > > done so well and how things could be improved in the future , this
              > > year was the first bjc business meeting that i've been to that has
              > > been just pure spin
              > >
              > > my guess is that knowing that there were issues that would likely to
              > > arive this years core team delibedrately tried to manipulate the
              > > situation so that these issues were not raised
              > >
              > > ultimately this control and manipulation is my main issue with the
              > > way this years bjc has been run ,
              > >
              > > i'm very glad that the vast majority of people had a great time ,
              > > i'm one of a group of people who have been working very hard all year
              > > trying to make this convention work - i would however have been
              > > prepared to put in more had i as part of the team been given some
              > > sence of ownership over the event , call me an old hippy but i for
              > > one work far better given freedom , responsability ownership and the
              > > potential to influence
              > >
              > > the dictatorial way that the running of this years bjc has been run
              > > has resulted in a lot of people who would have liked to have
              > > contributed more being prevented from doing so
              > >
              > > re the team not having a clear understanding of the implications of
              > > the grant - as someone who has been part of this core team for most
              > > of the 12 months i did have a thorough understanding of this ,
              > > which i also passed on to the rest of the team ,
              > > I have been told that i was deliberately excluded from the core team
              > > during the bjc for fear that i might have tried to take over and that
              > > i had an agenda - my main agenda is that £20,500 of arts council
              > > funding brings obligations , obligations which the rest of the team
              > > seemed to largely ignore , i hope this does not prevent the bjc
              > > recieving more funding in the future
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Mini Mansell" <mini@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > it is never an evaluation meeting its am opportunity to thank this
              > > > years team and to vote on next years location . My very first
              > > request
              > > > at the meeting was that any criticism would be ignored and to pass
              > > it
              > > > on constructively to next years team,
              > > >
              > > > On 3/30/08, Rob Stone <rob@...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > as one of the team of organisers its good to hear that our hard
              > > work
              > > > > > paid off , most people seemed to have a really good time
              > > > >
              > > > > this is a bit harsh - i'd say more than most - i'd say the VAST
              > > majority
              > > > >
              > > > > I had a good time in a fantastic venue - from a team who obvioulsy
              > > > > put in a huge amount of work.
              > > > >
              > > > > I agree the 'busines mtg' was a shambles and waste of time. I'd
              > > like to
              > > > > offer a constructive suggestion which is that the busines mtg is
              > > chaired
              > > > > by a member of the previous years team (eg peachie who was right
              > > there)
              > > > > who will understand what has been involved (there re of course
              > > many other
              > > > > respected appropriate people). I also think an agenda (which
              > > could include
              > > > > standing item - ones which are raised each year - should be
              > > agreed by the
              > > > > orgs beforehand and quickly run through.
              > > > >
              > > > > Having the mtg after such a great show was inspired BTW.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ACTION POINT:
              > > > > Decide an agenda and appoint an independednt chair well in
              > > advance of the
              > > > > event
              > > > >
              > > > > > - connected to this i would have liked to have been able to
              > > > > > contribute more to the bjc , but as i said my role was
              > > deliberately
              > > > > > restricted , i also know others who would have liked to
              > > contribute
              > > > > > more but were prevented from doing so
              > > > >
              > > > > team membership + internal politics are not going to be served or
              > > resolved
              > > > > by discussion here !
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > re justifying the funding we recieved in particular
              > > > > > - we should not have restricted the tickets available to the
              > > public
              > > > > > in the way we did
              > > > > snip
              > > > > > - we should have recorded public attendence / feedback
              > > > >
              > > > > Action Point:
              > > > > So we need to make clear to the orgs of the next event *exactly*
              > > what the
              > > > > terms of any grant are and what the implications are.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Rob.
              > > > > --
              > > > > Rob Stone. Dept Psychology. University of York. YO10 5DD
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Bob Dilworth
              Hi This forum is about the closest I get to a BJC these days so, like LP, would like to hear from people that attended what you thought of it, what the show
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi

                This forum is about the closest I get to a BJC these days so, like LP,
                would like to hear from people that attended what you thought of it,
                what the show was like, how awful the renegade was etc etc. However for
                the benefit of organisers of future BJC (and other conventions) it is
                also interesting to know a little of what went on behind the scenes and
                if things went wrong, why and how this can be avoided in the future. Yes
                I suppose jugconorg is the place for that.

                I am saddened to see such bitterness shown between jugglers, whatever
                the reason.

                Bob Dilworth


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Glyn Hanton
                Once again, thanks to the organisers of another successful event. As ever, the usual disclaimer : big respect to the people who in their time and effort to
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Once again, thanks to the organisers of another successful event.

                  As ever, the usual disclaimer : big respect to the people who in their
                  time and effort to make such a great event, these are not criticisms,
                  merely feedback from a punter who always enjoys this event.

                  Positives

                  good venue : every venue should have a huge dome on top with flashy
                  rainbow lights. Walking into the 'market place' was a really nice
                  introduction to this years event, it was beautifully decorated and a
                  great space for such a thing.

                  good hall : big space, high roof, need more be said.

                  cheap beer : inspired :o) OK - I think it was only cheap, because not
                  enough use was made of the 'beer tent' and they couldn't sell it, but
                  still.

                  great band Saturday night

                  Every convention, from this date forth, should be right next to a bloody
                  great Asda. Genius.

                  It was also obvious the amount of effort put in to transforming the hall
                  for the show, and the Japanese guy (what was his name?) was stunning.


                  Not so positives :

                  For gods sake guys, if there was one area where you failed pathetically
                  this time round, and I mean pathetically, it was as if no one had made
                  the slightest attempt, and quite frankly, I was just shocked, it was in
                  the blatant disregard to make any effort whatsoever, in controlling the
                  weather.

                  more seriously, some walkway, or having a few straw bails handy if the
                  camping field is likely to end up with huge lakes of sinking sand would
                  be nice. I may be exaggerating a tad, but the point is there, wading
                  through mud is rarely a positive shift for peoples spirit.

                  As impressive as the transformation of the hall for the show was,
                  however much money was saved by not booking an external theatre, and
                  buses and 'shipping' us all down to it - it simply wasn't worth it IMO.
                  I think closing the main juggling space for an entire day is too much of
                  a price to pay. It may have been OK if the weather was good and we could
                  hang outside, but it wasn't, and it was march, in Doncaster, so possibly
                  predictable. Of course, we were all supposed to be at the parade/games
                  at the time, but given the likelihood of the washout, perhaps this needs
                  closer attention next time.

                  The food situation was a bit limited. I found the 'jugglers bar' to be
                  of mediocre quality, and the other bar to be packed and slow. The burger
                  van as supplied by the venue was a bit of a disappointment too. Whatever
                  happened to having a good hippy 'burger van' about the place. I'm
                  probably not the right person to bring this up, but when the food van at
                  a juggling convention runs out of veggie food - that's possibly not too
                  smart. Fortunately, asda was just over the road, but it's a bit limited
                  when you want a hot meal.

                  Just an idea

                  in a venue where we are so close to the general public, would it be
                  possible to open up part of the traders section to the general public,
                  possibly with basic workshops - I can see quite a few problems with
                  doing this, but just airing an idea.

                  Once again, a big thank you to all concerned.

                  --
                  Glyn
                  Loaded Dice Design and Media
                  www.loadeddice.co.uk
                • Jay Linn
                  ... Oof. Worms. Can of. I ll be writing summat for r.j at some point, but I thought I d let my bile ferment for a few days before sharpening my poison pen and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 31, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dilworth" <bd@...> wrote:

                    > [...] how awful the renegade was etc etc.

                    Oof. Worms. Can of.

                    I'll be writing summat for r.j at some point, but I thought I'd let
                    my bile ferment for a few days before sharpening my poison pen and
                    opening the green ink.

                    > I am saddened to see such bitterness shown between jugglers,
                    whatever
                    > the reason.

                    Amen to that Bob. At one point I tried very hamfistedly to suggest
                    that a ceasefire might help, but I just ended up looking and feeling
                    a bit of a dick and completely failed to help. Hey ho.

                    --
                    Jay Linn

                    Does not have egg on his face. Yet.
                  • Jonathan the Jester
                    I m noted for being quite undiplomatic, but Mini, I think you have outdone me... I really didn t want to read this unconstructive, defensive and personal
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm noted for being quite undiplomatic, but Mini, I think you have outdone me...

                      I really didn't want to read this unconstructive, defensive and personal attack. It doesn't deal with any of the issues and is incredibly offensive to somebody who at the very least put a lot of effort into helping make the BJC happen.

                      I can't comment on the goings on or the politics, but I don't think Tim deserved such a cruel and probably inacurate summary of your less than well considered thoughts to be aired in public.

                      I hear such good things about the convention, I often wish I could get there more often and it deserves to be highly regarded. Your paragraph below completely undermines the integrity and the proffessionalism of a great event.

                      I have worked with Tim on a few things in the past and I have known him for many years. I know that he is a sincere and kind man and I have always found him to be particularly competent. Just my experience but I'm sure many people here would agree with me.


                      Jonathan the Jester




                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Mini Mansell
                      To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:19 AM
                      Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation


                      my final say on this is.tim get over it. You where not part of the
                      core team for at least the last six months. Your ability to function
                      in a team without leading is limited. Your ability to take a task to
                      completion is more limited. You where more or less sacked and now your
                      crying about it in public. Stop making a tit of yourself .

                      On 3/31/08, Tim Woolliscroft <timfooleryuk@...> wrote:
                      > stating that the business meeting is never an evaluation meeting is
                      > just a plain lie , every other bjc business meeting that i have been
                      > to has been an opportunity to reflect on what went well what was not
                      > done so well and how things could be improved in the future , this
                      > year was the first bjc business meeting that i've been to that has
                      > been just pure spin
                      >
                      > my guess is that knowing that there were issues that would likely to
                      > arive this years core team delibedrately tried to manipulate the
                      > situation so that these issues were not raised
                      >
                      > ultimately this control and manipulation is my main issue with the
                      > way this years bjc has been run ,
                      >
                      > i'm very glad that the vast majority of people had a great time ,
                      > i'm one of a group of people who have been working very hard all year
                      > trying to make this convention work - i would however have been
                      > prepared to put in more had i as part of the team been given some
                      > sence of ownership over the event , call me an old hippy but i for
                      > one work far better given freedom , responsability ownership and the
                      > potential to influence
                      >
                      > the dictatorial way that the running of this years bjc has been run
                      > has resulted in a lot of people who would have liked to have
                      > contributed more being prevented from doing so
                      >
                      > re the team not having a clear understanding of the implications of
                      > the grant - as someone who has been part of this core team for most
                      > of the 12 months i did have a thorough understanding of this ,
                      > which i also passed on to the rest of the team ,
                      > I have been told that i was deliberately excluded from the core team
                      > during the bjc for fear that i might have tried to take over and that
                      > i had an agenda - my main agenda is that £20,500 of arts council
                      > funding brings obligations , obligations which the rest of the team
                      > seemed to largely ignore , i hope this does not prevent the bjc
                      > recieving more funding in the future
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Mini Mansell" <mini@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > it is never an evaluation meeting its am opportunity to thank this
                      > > years team and to vote on next years location . My very first
                      > request
                      > > at the meeting was that any criticism would be ignored and to pass
                      > it
                      > > on constructively to next years team,
                      > >
                      > > On 3/30/08, Rob Stone <rob@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > as one of the team of organisers its good to hear that our hard
                      > work
                      > > > > paid off , most people seemed to have a really good time
                      > > >
                      > > > this is a bit harsh - i'd say more than most - i'd say the VAST
                      > majority
                      > > >
                      > > > I had a good time in a fantastic venue - from a team who obvioulsy
                      > > > put in a huge amount of work.
                      > > >
                      > > > I agree the 'busines mtg' was a shambles and waste of time. I'd
                      > like to
                      > > > offer a constructive suggestion which is that the busines mtg is
                      > chaired
                      > > > by a member of the previous years team (eg peachie who was right
                      > there)
                      > > > who will understand what has been involved (there re of course
                      > many other
                      > > > respected appropriate people). I also think an agenda (which
                      > could include
                      > > > standing item - ones which are raised each year - should be
                      > agreed by the
                      > > > orgs beforehand and quickly run through.
                      > > >
                      > > > Having the mtg after such a great show was inspired BTW.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ACTION POINT:
                      > > > Decide an agenda and appoint an independednt chair well in
                      > advance of the
                      > > > event
                      > > >
                      > > > > - connected to this i would have liked to have been able to
                      > > > > contribute more to the bjc , but as i said my role was
                      > deliberately
                      > > > > restricted , i also know others who would have liked to
                      > contribute
                      > > > > more but were prevented from doing so
                      > > >
                      > > > team membership + internal politics are not going to be served or
                      > resolved
                      > > > by discussion here !
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > re justifying the funding we recieved in particular
                      > > > > - we should not have restricted the tickets available to the
                      > public
                      > > > > in the way we did
                      > > > snip
                      > > > > - we should have recorded public attendence / feedback
                      > > >
                      > > > Action Point:
                      > > > So we need to make clear to the orgs of the next event *exactly*
                      > what the
                      > > > terms of any grant are and what the implications are.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Rob.
                      > > > --
                      > > > Rob Stone. Dept Psychology. University of York. YO10 5DD
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >





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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peachi - Pete
                      I think this thread should be dropped. I talked to Liz and offered to talk to Tim and arbitrate this matter OFF LIST. Hope thats OK. So please respecfully dont
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 1, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I think this thread should be dropped.

                        I talked to Liz and offered to talk to Tim and arbitrate this matter OFF
                        LIST.

                        Hope thats OK.

                        So please respecfully dont reply anymore.
                        Peachi

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of Jonathan the Jester
                        Sent: 01 April 2008 11:51
                        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation


                        I'm noted for being quite undiplomatic, but Mini, I think you have outdone
                        me...

                        I really didn't want to read this unconstructive, defensive and personal
                        attack. It doesn't deal with any of the issues and is incredibly offensive
                        to somebody who at the very least put a lot of effort into helping make the
                        BJC happen.

                        I can't comment on the goings on or the politics, but I don't think Tim
                        deserved such a cruel and probably inacurate summary of your less than well
                        considered thoughts to be aired in public.

                        I hear such good things about the convention, I often wish I could get there
                        more often and it deserves to be highly regarded. Your paragraph below
                        completely undermines the integrity and the proffessionalism of a great
                        event.

                        I have worked with Tim on a few things in the past and I have known him for
                        many years. I know that he is a sincere and kind man and I have always found
                        him to be particularly competent. Just my experience but I'm sure many
                        people here would agree with me.

                        Jonathan the Jester

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Mini Mansell
                        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:19 AM
                        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation

                        my final say on this is.tim get over it. You where not part of the
                        core team for at least the last six months. Your ability to function
                        in a team without leading is limited. Your ability to take a task to
                        completion is more limited. You where more or less sacked and now your
                        crying about it in public. Stop making a tit of yourself .

                        On 3/31/08, Tim Woolliscroft <timfooleryuk@...> wrote:
                        > stating that the business meeting is never an evaluation meeting is
                        > just a plain lie , every other bjc business meeting that i have been
                        > to has been an opportunity to reflect on what went well what was not
                        > done so well and how things could be improved in the future , this
                        > year was the first bjc business meeting that i've been to that has
                        > been just pure spin
                        >
                        > my guess is that knowing that there were issues that would likely to
                        > arive this years core team delibedrately tried to manipulate the
                        > situation so that these issues were not raised
                        >
                        > ultimately this control and manipulation is my main issue with the
                        > way this years bjc has been run ,
                        >
                        > i'm very glad that the vast majority of people had a great time ,
                        > i'm one of a group of people who have been working very hard all year
                        > trying to make this convention work - i would however have been
                        > prepared to put in more had i as part of the team been given some
                        > sence of ownership over the event , call me an old hippy but i for
                        > one work far better given freedom , responsability ownership and the
                        > potential to influence
                        >
                        > the dictatorial way that the running of this years bjc has been run
                        > has resulted in a lot of people who would have liked to have
                        > contributed more being prevented from doing so
                        >
                        > re the team not having a clear understanding of the implications of
                        > the grant - as someone who has been part of this core team for most
                        > of the 12 months i did have a thorough understanding of this ,
                        > which i also passed on to the rest of the team ,
                        > I have been told that i was deliberately excluded from the core team
                        > during the bjc for fear that i might have tried to take over and that
                        > i had an agenda - my main agenda is that £20,500 of arts council
                        > funding brings obligations , obligations which the rest of the team
                        > seemed to largely ignore , i hope this does not prevent the bjc
                        > recieving more funding in the future
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "Mini Mansell" <mini@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > it is never an evaluation meeting its am opportunity to thank this
                        > > years team and to vote on next years location . My very first
                        > request
                        > > at the meeting was that any criticism would be ignored and to pass
                        > it
                        > > on constructively to next years team,
                        > >
                        > > On 3/30/08, Rob Stone <rob@...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > as one of the team of organisers its good to hear that our hard
                        > work
                        > > > > paid off , most people seemed to have a really good time
                        > > >
                        > > > this is a bit harsh - i'd say more than most - i'd say the VAST
                        > majority
                        > > >
                        > > > I had a good time in a fantastic venue - from a team who obvioulsy
                        > > > put in a huge amount of work.
                        > > >
                        > > > I agree the 'busines mtg' was a shambles and waste of time. I'd
                        > like to
                        > > > offer a constructive suggestion which is that the busines mtg is
                        > chaired
                        > > > by a member of the previous years team (eg peachie who was right
                        > there)
                        > > > who will understand what has been involved (there re of course
                        > many other
                        > > > respected appropriate people). I also think an agenda (which
                        > could include
                        > > > standing item - ones which are raised each year - should be
                        > agreed by the
                        > > > orgs beforehand and quickly run through.
                        > > >
                        > > > Having the mtg after such a great show was inspired BTW.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ACTION POINT:
                        > > > Decide an agenda and appoint an independednt chair well in
                        > advance of the
                        > > > event
                        > > >
                        > > > > - connected to this i would have liked to have been able to
                        > > > > contribute more to the bjc , but as i said my role was
                        > deliberately
                        > > > > restricted , i also know others who would have liked to
                        > contribute
                        > > > > more but were prevented from doing so
                        > > >
                        > > > team membership + internal politics are not going to be served or
                        > resolved
                        > > > by discussion here !
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > re justifying the funding we recieved in particular
                        > > > > - we should not have restricted the tickets available to the
                        > public
                        > > > > in the way we did
                        > > > snip
                        > > > > - we should have recorded public attendence / feedback
                        > > >
                        > > > Action Point:
                        > > > So we need to make clear to the orgs of the next event *exactly*
                        > what the
                        > > > terms of any grant are and what the implications are.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Rob.
                        > > > --
                        > > > Rob Stone. Dept Psychology. University of York. YO10 5DD
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        ----------------------------------------------------------

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                        Checked by AVG.
                        Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1349 - Release Date: 29/03/2008
                        17:02

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jonathan the Jester
                        Dear all people called *Paul or *Seward.* Please don t be aggressively *patronising* on this thread. *Paul* that means you, but Mr Seward, that also means
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear all people called *Paul" or *Seward.*

                          Please don't be aggressively *patronising* on this thread. *Paul* that means you, but Mr Seward, that also means you.

                          Seriously Sir, sort yourself out off list. And kindly refrain from *astrexing* key words. If you aren't man enough to write this out longhand with a quill and actually staple the parchment to my forehead, you shouldn't be on this thread sortin us all out....

                          And if you could all kindly refrain from having passionate opinions about unimportant things like conventions, juggling, and funding I would be very grateful. Why cant we just live and let live and sit around a feild getting nothing done smoking various weeds, proclaiming them to be completely harmless but feeling really smug cos we can keep 6 balls of sterilised seed in the air for minutes at a time.

                          World peace can be acheived if we all simply couldn't be arsed to fight for it.

                          I'm now going to leave my keyboard and strutt around my office with my chest puffed up muttering stuff like "you aint worth it." The video will be on Utube from Friday...

                          Jonathan


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Paul Seward
                          To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:44 AM
                          Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Re: bjc evaluation


                          --On 31 March 2008 11:19 +0100 Mini Mansell <mini@...> wrote:

                          > Stop making a tit of yourself .

                          Dear all concerned.

                          Please take personal gripes, infighting and internal team politics
                          off list. Tim that means you, but Mini that *also* means you.

                          There is space for a *constructive* thread about what went well
                          and/or badly, how best to meet the requirements of any funding
                          secured etc - but I personally thing that jugconorg is a better
                          venue for such a discussion - and Charlie is right that a little
                          time and a little perspective would greatly enhance the result.

                          It's a pity that the first post-bjc thread on UK-J is about what
                          went wrong rather than "Yay! I've just got back from BJC! I had
                          a great time! It was my first BJC it were *awesome*"

                          Seriously guys, sort it out amongst yourselves, off list.

                          -Paul





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