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Re: [uk_jugglers] Workshops in Uk

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  • Circasia1@aol.com
    Hmm, This is evidently a contentious issue, so I will give a response - though I am not remotely interested in justifying the position, and if anyone wishes to
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 1, 2006
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      Hmm,

      This is evidently a contentious issue, so I will give a response - though I
      am not remotely interested in justifying the position, and if anyone wishes to
      derogate it that's absolutely fine. From what I can understand, the stance
      taken by some people is that jugglers are being compromised by not being paid
      enough, and that the fee vs company fee divide is much too high.

      I couldnt agree more. But it's a bit more complicated than that.

      1) Firsly, when trying to work out how much to pay / charge etc, 3 things
      have to be balanced which do not balance - wanting to pay the performer as much
      as possible, wanting the company to get as much as possible, keeping the
      price low enough to get jobs.

      I would like to pay £500 / day, as most of the people are good friends,
      indeed are doing a tough job, and need to be happy to continue, however this is
      impractical.

      The discrepancy between fee and charges is down to the cost of organisation
      (eg marketing etc), covering things like travel costs, and the risk to the
      company name. And of course profit.

      2) This is business. I assume that the people not happy with this do their
      workshops for free, and charge wholesale prices on equipment, so as not to
      exploit anyone, or is the concern limited to the juggling fraternity?

      3) I've never personally had a problem with agency charges - I still get
      work from other sources, and used to do cocktail piano for a few hundred whilst
      the bar was pulling in extra 1000s - why would anyone care about that, as long
      as I get what I want I'm happy.

      4) If it transpires that £150 is too low (and again, Ive been paid a lot
      less), then that will quite simply be answered by not many people taking it up,
      and going it alone as lots of us do.

      5) Agency fees being high is not a problem, its a good thing. All the people
      that freelance can then up their fees as much as they want, its undercutting
      that damages the market, making it harder to people to get a reasonable wage.



      Frank.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jonathan the Jester
      Frank said 5) Agency fees being high is not a problem, its a good thing. All the people that freelance can then up their fees as much as they want, its
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 3, 2006
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        Frank said "5) Agency fees being high is not a problem, its a good thing. All the people
        that freelance can then up their fees as much as they want, its undercutting
        that damages the market, making it harder to people to get a reasonable wage."

        I think £150 is undercutting.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Circasia1@...
        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Workshops in Uk


        Hmm,

        This is evidently a contentious issue, so I will give a response - though I
        am not remotely interested in justifying the position, and if anyone wishes to
        derogate it that's absolutely fine. From what I can understand, the stance
        taken by some people is that jugglers are being compromised by not being paid
        enough, and that the fee vs company fee divide is much too high.

        I couldnt agree more. But it's a bit more complicated than that.

        1) Firsly, when trying to work out how much to pay / charge etc, 3 things
        have to be balanced which do not balance - wanting to pay the performer as much
        as possible, wanting the company to get as much as possible, keeping the
        price low enough to get jobs.

        I would like to pay £500 / day, as most of the people are good friends,
        indeed are doing a tough job, and need to be happy to continue, however this is
        impractical.

        The discrepancy between fee and charges is down to the cost of organisation
        (eg marketing etc), covering things like travel costs, and the risk to the
        company name. And of course profit.

        2) This is business. I assume that the people not happy with this do their
        workshops for free, and charge wholesale prices on equipment, so as not to
        exploit anyone, or is the concern limited to the juggling fraternity?

        3) I've never personally had a problem with agency charges - I still get
        work from other sources, and used to do cocktail piano for a few hundred whilst
        the bar was pulling in extra 1000s - why would anyone care about that, as long
        as I get what I want I'm happy.

        4) If it transpires that £150 is too low (and again, Ive been paid a lot
        less), then that will quite simply be answered by not many people taking it up,
        and going it alone as lots of us do.

        5) Agency fees being high is not a problem, its a good thing. All the people
        that freelance can then up their fees as much as they want, its undercutting
        that damages the market, making it harder to people to get a reasonable wage.



        Frank.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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      • Nigel
        ... Interesting that you should mention undercutting.... Splats - £300/day + VAT ( or thereabouts ) Workshops for Schools - £600/day ( nearasdammit ) You -
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 4, 2006
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          On 1 Sep 2006, at 18:01, Circasia1@... wrote:

          > its undercutting
          > that damages the market, making it harder to people to get a
          > reasonable wage.
          >

          Interesting that you should mention undercutting....

          Splats - £300/day + VAT ( or thereabouts )
          Workshops for Schools - £600/day ( nearasdammit )
          You - £250/day

          Which looks like undercutting to me.
          But don't take that personally, you certainly redeem yourself when it
          comes to;

          Splats - £130/day + travel ( last time I knew, and that was the "top
          rate" ( oh no!! we're not supposed to realise they pay different
          teachers different amounts ) - and that's all assuming that they ever
          bother to pay at all )

          Workshops for Schools - £110/day + travel ( though if you argue enough
          with them you might get it up to £125.... still sh*t and the most
          ridiculous mark-up ever, but the cheque lands on your doormat in <10
          days )

          You - £150/day + travel

          I'd say you shape up pretty well against the competition...

          N.

          --------------------------------
          Only 6% of the eligible UK population donate blood.
          What's your excuse?
          http://www.blood.co.uk
        • Jonathan the Jester
          I d say that compared to Shooting Stars, The Table Top Circus, Evententertainers, Jugglers Etc, Quality Entertainments, XPG events, Ace Music, Inhouse
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 4, 2006
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            I'd say that compared to Shooting Stars, The Table Top Circus, Evententertainers, Jugglers Etc, Quality Entertainments,
            XPG events, Ace Music, Inhouse Entertainments..

            Circasia do not shape up at all well compared to the competition...

            Don't forget that a workshop can vary dramaticly in quality. I have worked alongside some very poor instructors in the past. I don't beleive that I could find
            an instructor up to my high standards willing to work for £150. An assistant to an instructor yes.. but a person solely responsible for the whole event I would
            be very doubtful - it depends on how much help there is with the travel - it isn't just petrol money - it's time.

            Not that I would sneer at £150 on a Tuesday in Feb....


            ----- Original Message -----


            >
            >

            Interesting that you should mention undercutting....

            Splats - £300/day + VAT ( or thereabouts )
            Workshops for Schools - £600/day ( nearasdammit )
            You - £250/day

            Which looks like undercutting to me.
            But don't take that personally, you certainly redeem yourself when it
            comes to;

            Splats - £130/day + travel ( last time I knew, and that was the "top
            rate" ( oh no!! we're not supposed to realise they pay different
            teachers different amounts ) - and that's all assuming that they ever
            bother to pay at all )

            Workshops for Schools - £110/day + travel ( though if you argue enough
            with them you might get it up to £125.... still sh*t and the most
            ridiculous mark-up ever, but the cheque lands on your doormat in <10
            days )

            You - £150/day + travel

            I'd say you shape up pretty well against the competition...

            N.

            --------------------------------
            Only 6% of the eligible UK population donate blood.
            What's your excuse?
            http://www.blood.co.uk






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