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Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?

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  • Charlie Hull
    ... I m not one either, but I ve set up several limited companies. I would suggest that your idea of setting one up now that you can then use for a BJC is not
    Message 1 of 26 , May 13, 2010
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      On 13/05/2010 14:39, Emily Winch wrote:
      > Hi Nigel,
      >
      > I am not an accountant but I looked into this for BJC 2008. This is my
      > understanding of it, I could be wrong.

      I'm not one either, but I've set up several limited companies. I would
      suggest that your idea of setting one up now that you can then use for a
      BJC is not a bad idea from the point of having some trading history, but
      remember if you then wind it up for any reason (as often happens with
      ltd.cos. set up for BJCs) you also lose the other things you used it for.
      >
      > Setup costs are minimal. You need two directors minimum, and both directors
      > will start having to do their own personal tax returns each year if they
      > don't already.

      It cost us about £90 to set up a ltd. co., our accountant told us you
      basically buy one off-the-shelf (they usually have a silly synthetic
      name that you change immediately). Took about an hour I think.
      >
      > Yearly costs are the cost of filing your annual return (maybe £15 or so) and
      > the cost of having an accountant do your accounts. For a small company like
      > BJC you don't HAVE to get an accountant to do the accounts. It's feasible to
      > file some "nothing happened this year" accounts yourself. I'm trying to do
      > that myself now, and honestly if the accounts were any more complicated than
      > "nothing happened" I'd be paying money to get them done.
      >
      > If your company makes a loss in the tax year prior to BJC I think you can
      > offset that against profit the next year for tax purposes (but ask an
      > accountant!)

      Whatever you do, get an accountant. They'll save you all kinds of hassle.

      >
      > If your company has a bank account, banks will start charging you monthly
      > fees (and per cheque fees and so on) after an initial freebie period.
      >
      > Yes, if your turnover becomes higher than the VAT threshold you immediately
      > need to start worrying about VAT. However, as I understand it, you don't
      > have to start charging VAT until the month after the one in which your
      > annual turnover reaches the threshold. For a BJC, if you reached the
      > threshold that would presumably happen during the BJC in which case, all
      > your sales would happen before you were obliged to charge VAT. Doesn't mean
      > that the registration wouldn't be a major pain though.
      >
      > No BJC to my knowledge has reached the VAT threshold before, and it could be
      > worth while to budget to deliberately avoid it.

      Yes, yes and thrice yes. VAT is an utter, utter pain in the behind and
      you would do best to avoid registration if at all possible.

      One thing to bear in mind is a lot of this administration stuff
      (Companies House, HMRC for VAT and Tax) is now available online. You
      need to register and wait for magic authentication numbers in the post,
      but it's worth it.

      Charlie
      >
      > E.
      >
    • Mark
      ... Caveat emptor, I m not either ... Don t think you do need 2 directors. My company only has one. Me. With multiple directors you need to think about
      Message 2 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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        On Thu, 2010-05-13 at 14:39 +0100, Emily Winch wrote:

        > Hi Nigel,
        >
        > I am not an accountant but I looked into this for BJC 2008. This is my
        > understanding of it, I could be wrong.

        Caveat emptor, I'm not either

        >
        > Setup costs are minimal. You need two directors minimum, and both directors
        > will start having to do their own personal tax returns each year if they
        > don't already.


        Don't think you do need 2 directors. My company only has one. Me. With
        multiple directors you need to think about director's agreements and
        such.
        http://www.simpleformations.com/ will do company registration for you
        from £32 + VAT (and 18 months free banking with HSBC)



        > Yearly costs are the cost of filing your annual return (maybe 15 or so) and
        > the cost of having an accountant do your accounts.


        If the company's not trading you can file dormant accounts at companies
        house. Don't need an accountant to do this.


        > If your company has a bank account, banks will start charging you monthly
        > fees (and per cheque fees and so on) after an initial freebie period.


        Join the FSB (federation of small business). They provide free banking
        for life through the co-op. Membership costs £120 pa. There are other
        benefits like legal advice and so on. See http://www.fsb.org.uk/ for
        more details.


        > Yes, if your turnover becomes higher than the VAT threshold you immediately
        > need to start worrying about VAT. However, as I understand it, you don't
        > have to start charging VAT until the month after the one in which your
        > annual turnover reaches the threshold. For a BJC, if you reached the
        > threshold that would presumably happen during the BJC in which case, all
        > your sales would happen before you were obliged to charge VAT. Doesn't mean
        > that the registration wouldn't be a major pain though.


        Registration for VAT is simple. All you have to do IMHO is keep proper
        records of receipts and so on, and use an accounts package of some sort
        to keep track of the VAT and do the VAT return for you. There are
        on-line accounts packages now as well. A quick Google found
        http://www.libertyaccounts.com but there are others. Or, you can buy
        something like Sage or get a book-keeper / friendly juggler to do your
        books.

        You can back-date VAT transactions to prior to the registration date
        (i.e. back-claim for VAT already incurred).

        HTH


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Emily Winch
        ... I looked it up and you re right, you don t need two directors, but you do need at least one director and one company secretary, who can t be the same
        Message 3 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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          >
          >
          > > Setup costs are minimal. You need two directors minimum, and both
          > directors
          > > will start having to do their own personal tax returns each year if they
          > > don't already.
          >
          > Don't think you do need 2 directors. My company only has one. Me. With
          > multiple directors you need to think about director's agreements and
          > such.
          > http://www.simpleformations.com/ will do company registration for you
          > from £32 + VAT (and 18 months free banking with HSBC)
          >

          I looked it up and you're right, you don't need two directors, but you do
          need at least one director and one company secretary, who can't be the same
          person. So two directors (one of whom is the secretary) is fine, but only
          one director and nobody else at all is not fine.

          > Yearly costs are the cost of filing your annual return (maybe 15 or so)
          > and
          > > the cost of having an accountant do your accounts.
          >
          > If the company's not trading you can file dormant accounts at companies
          > house. Don't need an accountant to do this.
          >


          > Join the FSB (federation of small business). They provide free banking
          > for life through the co-op. Membership costs £120 pa. There are other
          > benefits like legal advice and so on. See http://www.fsb.org.uk/ for
          > more details.
          >

          Bookmarked! Thank you!

          > Yes, if your turnover becomes higher than the VAT threshold you
          > immediately
          > > need to start worrying about VAT. However, as I understand it, you don't
          > > have to start charging VAT until the month after the one in which your
          > > annual turnover reaches the threshold. For a BJC, if you reached the
          > > threshold that would presumably happen during the BJC in which case, all
          > > your sales would happen before you were obliged to charge VAT. Doesn't
          > mean
          > > that the registration wouldn't be a major pain though.
          >
          > Registration for VAT is simple. All you have to do IMHO is keep proper
          > records of receipts and so on, and use an accounts package of some sort
          > to keep track of the VAT and do the VAT return for you. There are
          > on-line accounts packages now as well. A quick Google found
          > http://www.libertyaccounts.com but there are others. Or, you can buy
          > something like Sage or get a book-keeper / friendly juggler to do your
          > books.
          >
          > You can back-date VAT transactions to prior to the registration date
          > (i.e. back-claim for VAT already incurred).
          >

          Can you do this even if you have not charged VAT to customers prior to the
          registration date? The sticking point for a BJC is that the way we sell
          tickets on the door is currently very NOT amenable to charging VAT. However,
          back-dating claims for VAT paid before registration, while not having to
          charge VAT to customers, would be an enormous financial advantage to a BJC.
          Could even be worth voluntary registration if it really works like that!

          Emily.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mark
          ... A company secretary doesn t have to be a director. ... Welcome ... Don t see why not if VAT is included in the price of the ticket. However this either
          Message 4 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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            On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 09:57 +0100, Emily Winch wrote:


            > > Don't think you do need 2 directors. My company only has one. Me.
            > With
            > > multiple directors you need to think about director's agreements and
            > > such.
            > I looked it up and you're right, you don't need two directors, but you
            > do
            > need at least one director and one company secretary, who can't be the
            > same
            > person. So two directors (one of whom is the secretary) is fine, but
            > only
            > one director and nobody else at all is not fine.


            A company secretary doesn't have to be a director.


            > > Join the FSB (federation of small business). They provide free
            > banking
            > > for life through the co-op. Membership costs £120 pa. There are
            > other
            > > benefits like legal advice and so on. See http://www.fsb.org.uk/ for
            > > more details.
            > >
            >
            > Bookmarked! Thank you!

            Welcome


            > > You can back-date VAT transactions to prior to the registration date
            > > (i.e. back-claim for VAT already incurred).
            > >
            >
            > Can you do this even if you have not charged VAT to customers prior to
            > the
            > registration date? The sticking point for a BJC is that the way we
            > sell
            > tickets on the door is currently very NOT amenable to charging VAT.


            Don't see why not if VAT is included in the price of the ticket. However
            this either increases the ticket price or decreases the income to the
            BJC. However if you're claiming VAT on outgoings this is probably partly
            mitigated.


            > However,
            > back-dating claims for VAT paid before registration, while not having
            > to
            > charge VAT to customers, would be an enormous financial advantage to a
            > BJC.
            > Could even be worth voluntary registration if it really works like
            > that!


            Will have to check this ... I'll ask my accountant :-)
            Not sure if the VAT office would be all together happy about it
            though :-)





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Roger - Unicycle.Com (UK)
            ... You have a limit on what you can claim back for prior to registration. It is not 100% and I think a lot of things for BJC wont be covered. If I remember
            Message 5 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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              On 14/05/2010 10:18, Mark wrote:

              > > > You can back-date VAT transactions to prior to the registration date
              > > > (i.e. back-claim for VAT already incurred).
              > >
              > > Can you do this even if you have not charged VAT to customers prior to
              > > the
              > > registration date? The sticking point for a BJC is that the way we
              > > sell
              > > tickets on the door is currently very NOT amenable to charging VAT.
              >
              > Don't see why not if VAT is included in the price of the ticket. However
              > this either increases the ticket price or decreases the income to the
              > BJC. However if you're claiming VAT on outgoings this is probably partly
              > mitigated.

              You have a limit on what you can claim back for prior to registration.
              It is not 100% and I think a lot of things for BJC wont be covered. If
              I remember you can get it for office equipment and office consumables
              and that is about it, but I may be wrong on this... it is a long time
              ago that I did this.

              > > However,
              > > back-dating claims for VAT paid before registration, while not having
              > > to
              > > charge VAT to customers, would be an enormous financial advantage to a
              > > BJC.
              > > Could even be worth voluntary registration if it really works like
              > > that!
              >
              > Will have to check this ... I'll ask my accountant :-)
              > Not sure if the VAT office would be all together happy about it
              > though :-)

              I also do not think you will be allowed to do this, but should be looked
              in to, it should not be hard using the accounts from last year to see if
              it would be worth registering or not. If you had the charge VAT on the
              tickets, then you need to ask the question, is it worth getting services
              cheaper (17.5% cheaper) going to pass on 17.5% saving to the end user?
              I think probably not (although the accountancy exercise will tell this
              quite quickly).

              Roger

              __________________________

              The UK's Unicycle Source
              http://www.unicycle.uk.com
              __________________________
            • Emily Winch
              ... Yes exactly. They CAN be a director but they can t be the only director. So two people are required. ... I m mainly thinking about record keeping
              Message 6 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                >
                >
                > > I looked it up and you're right, you don't need two directors, but you
                > > do
                > > need at least one director and one company secretary, who can't be the
                > > same
                > > person. So two directors (one of whom is the secretary) is fine, but
                > > only
                > > one director and nobody else at all is not fine.
                >
                > A company secretary doesn't have to be a director.
                >

                Yes exactly. They CAN be a director but they can't be the only director. So
                two people are required.


                > > Can you do this even if you have not charged VAT to customers prior to
                > > the
                > > registration date? The sticking point for a BJC is that the way we
                > > sell
                > > tickets on the door is currently very NOT amenable to charging VAT.
                >
                > Don't see why not if VAT is included in the price of the ticket. However
                > this either increases the ticket price or decreases the income to the
                > BJC. However if you're claiming VAT on outgoings this is probably partly
                > mitigated.
                >

                I'm mainly thinking about record keeping requirements behind reg desk. But
                in fact I don't know much about VAT record keeping requirements, maybe it's
                not as onerous as I think.

                Also, a BJC wouldn't normally shell out money for an accounting package that
                handles VAT calculations. I did our accounts in GnuCash (which is free) and
                I think many other years have used spreadsheets.

                Will have to check this ... I'll ask my accountant :-)
                > Not sure if the VAT office would be all together happy about it
                > though :-)
                >

                Yep, I think it would be massively tough on your average BJC team to do
                this. A normal company can get up to speed over a long period, and will
                perhaps only have one quarter in which they are processing VAT transactions
                without fully knowing what they are letting themselves in for. A BJC team
                does nearly ALL its trading in one hectic four day period. They really have
                to get everything right first time.

                Anyway, I think being VAT registered would be a financial negative (as Roger
                says) unless the aforementioned "fiddle" really works in which all of the
                sales could be made before the VAT registration happened, but significant
                expenses could still be claimed back.

                Emily


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard Loxley
                I m director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT and de-registered and I also use an accountant. When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim
                Message 7 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                  I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                  and de-registered and I also use an accountant.

                  When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                  on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                  for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                  maybe 6 months?)

                  As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                  everything you sell.

                  Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                  transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                  boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                  simple spreadsheet to do it for me.

                  I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                  is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                  by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                  increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                  suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                  may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                  registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                  a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.

                  Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                  then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                  you originally wanted to do?

                  My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                  personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                  charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                  to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                  him to discuss business & tax advice.

                  I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                  history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                  of former BJC organisers.

                  Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                  a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                  money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                  hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                  an event with a budget of tens of thousands).

                  My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                  ticking over probably isn't worth it.

                  Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                  don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                  is optional for new companies:
                  http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5

                  - Richard
                • Emily Winch
                  ... How about receipt-keeping? Giving VAT receipts for every cash transaction at reg desk would be ridiculous. Even having good records of exactly what was
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                    On 14 May 2010 12:10, Richard Loxley <juggle@...> wrote:

                    > Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                    > transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                    > boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                    > simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                    >

                    How about receipt-keeping? Giving VAT receipts for every cash transaction at
                    reg desk would be ridiculous. Even having good records of exactly what was
                    sold is a challenge when there are often new volunteers working on the desk,
                    and things get madly busy.

                    > I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                    > history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                    > of former BJC organisers.
                    >
                    Tough because we have all done it without one, so it's hard to tell what
                    benefits there could have been.
                    Someone suggested benefits to funding applications. However, Tim's
                    successful application for our ACE funding (and presumably also
                    Nottingham's) went on about how we were a successful established event, and
                    never mentioned the recent company formation at all.

                    Someone on the wiki suggests that having an account with hire companies
                    makes things cheaper. I don't know what checks hire companies do before
                    letting you open an account, or whether a trading history would help there.
                    The Huddersfield team may know; they tried to open an account with
                    SpeedyHire, I can't remember whether they succeeded.

                    >
                    > My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                    > ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                    >
                    It could be worth it if there was other business to put through it which
                    would also benefit from limited company status.


                    > Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                    > don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                    > is optional for new companies:
                    > http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                    >
                    > Oh excellent, something else I have learned today!

                    Emily


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Roger - Unicycle.Com (UK)
                    ... You will be below the mandatory amount to have to give out VAT receipts for transactions. You only need to do it on request. There is an alternative
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                      On 14/05/2010 12:58, Emily Winch wrote:

                      > > Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                      > > transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                      > > boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                      > > simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                      >
                      > How about receipt-keeping? Giving VAT receipts for every cash transaction at
                      > reg desk would be ridiculous. Even having good records of exactly what was
                      > sold is a challenge when there are often new volunteers working on the desk,
                      > and things get madly busy.

                      You will be below the mandatory amount to have to give out VAT receipts
                      for transactions. You only need to do it on request.

                      There is an alternative option for submitting the VAT form, this allows
                      for this kind of thing. It is called the flat rate scheme you pay VAT
                      as a flat rate percentage of your turnover and save time accounting for
                      VAT on sales and purchases. This may not help things too much as I
                      think the savings to be made are if you do it carefully... :-S

                      > > I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                      > > history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                      > > of former BJC organisers.
                      > >
                      > Tough because we have all done it without one, so it's hard to tell what
                      > benefits there could have been.
                      > Someone suggested benefits to funding applications. However, Tim's
                      > successful application for our ACE funding (and presumably also
                      > Nottingham's) went on about how we were a successful established event, and
                      > never mentioned the recent company formation at all.

                      I don't believe it does help for this. It give legitimacy to the
                      company, but that can be done other ways.

                      > Someone on the wiki suggests that having an account with hire companies
                      > makes things cheaper. I don't know what checks hire companies do before
                      > letting you open an account, or whether a trading history would help there.
                      > The Huddersfield team may know; they tried to open an account with
                      > SpeedyHire, I can't remember whether they succeeded.

                      Yes it is cheaper from my experience. This can be achieved without an
                      account though. You just need to talk to them and you get discount,
                      especially if you can get yourself referred by another company.

                      Roger
                      __________________________

                      The UK's Unicycle Source
                      http://www.unicycle.uk.com
                      __________________________
                    • Concrete Circus
                      Thank you all for your input. I ve read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                        Thank you all for your input.

                        I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.

                        I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.

                        I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962

                        Nigel

                        hating school booking officers
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Richard Loxley
                        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?



                        I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                        and de-registered and I also use an accountant.

                        When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                        on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                        for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                        maybe 6 months?)

                        As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                        everything you sell.

                        Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                        transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                        boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                        simple spreadsheet to do it for me.

                        I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                        is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                        by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                        increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                        suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                        may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                        registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                        a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.

                        Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                        then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                        you originally wanted to do?

                        My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                        personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                        charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                        to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                        him to discuss business & tax advice.

                        I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                        history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                        of former BJC organisers.

                        Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                        a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                        money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                        hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                        an event with a budget of tens of thousands).

                        My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                        ticking over probably isn't worth it.

                        Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                        don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                        is optional for new companies:
                        http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5

                        - Richard




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Emily Winch
                        ... The VAT limit is on turnover, i.e. the sales you make. ACE grants aren t sales so they don t count.
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 14, 2010
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                          On 14 May 2010 13:16, Concrete Circus <nigel@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant
                          > of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over
                          > the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is
                          > in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a
                          > problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a
                          > BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless
                          > the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual
                          > but that all seems messy.
                          >
                          The VAT limit is on turnover, i.e. the sales you make. ACE grants aren't
                          sales so they don't count.

                          http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm#6

                          The tax year of a limited company can end whenever you like (not just April)
                          and indeed the best time is well after the convention, otherwise you will
                          have to do a year's accounts for tax purposes before you have finished
                          spending all your money. It's possible to include "money we will owe in the
                          next year" in the accounts, but then if your projections of expenses turn
                          out to be wrong you have got yourself in a bit of a muddle!

                          Also (if things haven't changed since we did it) you can hold off submitting
                          your first accounts until 18 months after you start the company. That
                          doesn't make any difference to the tax situation, it just defers the
                          paperwork writing for a bit.

                          Emily.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Plumsie
                          Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 14, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team interested in running BJC 2014.


                            Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).

                            If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is this a specific bid for 2014 only?

                            Plumsie


                            >
                            >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@...>
                            >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                            >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                            >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                            >
                            > >
                            >>
                            >
                            >Thank you all for your input.
                            >
                            >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                            >
                            >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.
                            >
                            >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962
                            >
                            >>Nigel
                            >
                            >>hating school booking officers
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: Richard Loxley
                            >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                            >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                            >
                            >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                            >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                            >
                            >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                            >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                            >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                            >> maybe 6 months?)
                            >
                            >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                            >> everything you sell.
                            >
                            >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                            >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                            >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                            >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                            >
                            >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                            >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                            >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                            >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                            >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                            >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                            >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                            >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                            >
                            >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                            >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                            >> you originally wanted to do?
                            >
                            >>My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                            >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                            >> charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                            >> to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                            >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                            >
                            >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                            >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                            >> of former BJC organisers.
                            >
                            >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                            >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                            >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                            >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                            >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                            >
                            >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                            >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                            >
                            >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                            >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                            >> is optional for new companies:
                            >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                            >
                            >>- Richard
                            >
                            >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            >




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jonathan the jester
                            You should talk to YOUR accountant about this. If you haven t got one get one. Or pay a consultation fee to see one ( a mere £125 per hour) or Talk to HMRC
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 14, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              You should talk to YOUR accountant about this.

                              If you haven't got one get one. Or pay a consultation fee to see one ( a mere £125 per hour) or Talk to HMRC (that's the tax office) because they know what they are talking about and it is FREE.

                              DO NOT take advice from jugglers on accounts, VAT, etc. Don't take legal advice from nice people you know down the pub and more important still, NEVER not bother to claim anything simply because a "mate" told you it wasn't worth it.

                              When they say Tax doesn't have to be taxing. They are LIARS!

                              I don't know much. But all of the above is absolutely TRUE!

                              Jonathan the Jester




                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Emily Winch
                              To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:46 PM
                              Subject: [SPAM] Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?



                              On 14 May 2010 13:16, Concrete Circus <nigel@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant
                              > of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over
                              > the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is
                              > in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a
                              > problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a
                              > BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless
                              > the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual
                              > but that all seems messy.
                              >
                              The VAT limit is on turnover, i.e. the sales you make. ACE grants aren't
                              sales so they don't count.

                              http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm#6

                              The tax year of a limited company can end whenever you like (not just April)
                              and indeed the best time is well after the convention, otherwise you will
                              have to do a year's accounts for tax purposes before you have finished
                              spending all your money. It's possible to include "money we will owe in the
                              next year" in the accounts, but then if your projections of expenses turn
                              out to be wrong you have got yourself in a bit of a muddle!

                              Also (if things haven't changed since we did it) you can hold off submitting
                              your first accounts until 18 months after you start the company. That
                              doesn't make any difference to the tax situation, it just defers the
                              paperwork writing for a bit.

                              Emily.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Concrete Circus
                              I ve said I wanted to do BJC2014 because it was the earliest date that I thought I could do and still be a responsible parent. My youngest will be nearly 7
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 14, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I've said I wanted to do BJC2014 because it was the earliest date that I thought I could do and still be a responsible parent. My youngest will be nearly 7 then and will be able to look after herself for most of the day. Which means that I am prepared to do a later date if necessary.

                                Saying that. If I continue to put in as much time and effort for the next few years as I have already then another bid will have to be pretty good.

                                Nigel
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Plumsie
                                To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM
                                Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?



                                Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team interested in running BJC 2014.

                                Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).

                                If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is this a specific bid for 2014 only?

                                Plumsie

                                >
                                >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@...>
                                >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                                >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                >
                                > >
                                >>
                                >
                                >Thank you all for your input.
                                >
                                >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                                >
                                >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.
                                >
                                >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962
                                >
                                >>Nigel
                                >
                                >>hating school booking officers
                                >> ----- Original Message -----
                                >> From: Richard Loxley
                                >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                                >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                >
                                >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                                >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                                >
                                >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                                >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                                >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                                >> maybe 6 months?)
                                >
                                >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                                >> everything you sell.
                                >
                                >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                                >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                                >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                                >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                                >
                                >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                                >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                                >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                                >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                                >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                                >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                                >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                                >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                                >
                                >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                                >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                                >> you originally wanted to do?
                                >
                                >>My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                                >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                                >> charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                                >> to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                                >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                                >
                                >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                                >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                                >> of former BJC organisers.
                                >
                                >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                                >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                                >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                                >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                                >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                                >
                                >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                                >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                                >
                                >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                                >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                                >> is optional for new companies:
                                >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                                >
                                >>- Richard
                                >
                                >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Emily Winch
                                ... Possibly use of the blink tag is called for! Emily. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 14, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 14 May 2010 14:01, jonathan the jester <j.jester@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You should talk to YOUR accountant about this.
                                  >
                                  > If you haven't got one get one. Or pay a consultation fee to see one ( a
                                  > mere £125 per hour) or Talk to HMRC (that's the tax office) because they
                                  > know what they are talking about and it is FREE.
                                  >
                                  > Yep I don't think it's possible to say this loud enough or often enough.
                                  Possibly use of the blink tag is called for!

                                  Emily.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Glyn Hanton
                                  My personal experience of VAT is that it is a piece of piss, but a pain in the arse, or less poetically, easy, but tedious. If it gets difficult, you just
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 14, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    My personal experience of VAT is that it is a piece of piss, but a pain
                                    in the arse, or less poetically, easy, but tedious.

                                    If it gets difficult, you just phone the government tax people and ask
                                    them what you're supposed to do. They have a help line. Or use their web
                                    site.

                                    I find it mildly amusing that at a time when the nation is discussing
                                    supposed financial ruin, people will still follow any fiddle they can
                                    get away with to avoid paying tax. Not intending to be judgemental, and
                                    in such times obviously people will try and save money where they can,
                                    but you have to admit it has a nice irony ring to it.

                                    In the next instalment, "blaming the govt for running out of money ..."

                                    Of course, having said that, given what the govt spend the cash on, BJC
                                    organisers would probably be taking the moral high ground by keeping
                                    hold of it and having a party.


                                    On 14/05/2010 14:01, jonathan the jester wrote:
                                    > You should talk to YOUR accountant about this.
                                    >
                                    > If you haven't got one get one. Or pay a consultation fee to see one ( a mere £125 per hour) or Talk to HMRC (that's the tax office) because they know what they are talking about and it is FREE.
                                    >
                                    > DO NOT take advice from jugglers on accounts, VAT, etc. Don't take legal advice from nice people you know down the pub and more important still, NEVER not bother to claim anything simply because a "mate" told you it wasn't worth it.
                                    >
                                    > When they say Tax doesn't have to be taxing. They are LIARS!
                                    >
                                    > I don't know much. But all of the above is absolutely TRUE!
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan the Jester
                                    >

                                    --
                                    Glyn
                                    Loaded Dice Design and Media
                                    www.loadeddice.co.uk
                                  • jonathan the jester
                                    VAT is possibly a peice of piss. Corporation TAx is a BASTARD! ... From: Glyn Hanton To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 3:49 PM
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 16, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      VAT is possibly a peice of piss. Corporation TAx is a BASTARD!


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Glyn Hanton
                                      To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 3:49 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [uk_jugglers] No I'm not an accountant



                                      My personal experience of VAT is that it is a piece of piss, but a pain
                                      in the arse, or less poetically, easy, but tedious.

                                      If it gets difficult, you just phone the government tax people and ask
                                      them what you're supposed to do. They have a help line. Or use their web
                                      site.

                                      I find it mildly amusing that at a time when the nation is discussing
                                      supposed financial ruin, people will still follow any fiddle they can
                                      get away with to avoid paying tax. Not intending to be judgemental, and
                                      in such times obviously people will try and save money where they can,
                                      but you have to admit it has a nice irony ring to it.

                                      In the next instalment, "blaming the govt for running out of money ..."

                                      Of course, having said that, given what the govt spend the cash on, BJC
                                      organisers would probably be taking the moral high ground by keeping
                                      hold of it and having a party.

                                      On 14/05/2010 14:01, jonathan the jester wrote:
                                      > You should talk to YOUR accountant about this.
                                      >
                                      > If you haven't got one get one. Or pay a consultation fee to see one ( a mere £125 per hour) or Talk to HMRC (that's the tax office) because they know what they are talking about and it is FREE.
                                      >
                                      > DO NOT take advice from jugglers on accounts, VAT, etc. Don't take legal advice from nice people you know down the pub and more important still, NEVER not bother to claim anything simply because a "mate" told you it wasn't worth it.
                                      >
                                      > When they say Tax doesn't have to be taxing. They are LIARS!
                                      >
                                      > I don't know much. But all of the above is absolutely TRUE!
                                      >
                                      > Jonathan the Jester
                                      >

                                      --
                                      Glyn
                                      Loaded Dice Design and Media
                                      www.loadeddice.co.uk





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • jonathan the jester
                                      Where is BJC 2011 please? ... From: Plumsie To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 23, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Where is BJC 2011 please?


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Plumsie
                                        To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?



                                        Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team interested in running BJC 2014.

                                        Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).

                                        If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is this a specific bid for 2014 only?

                                        Plumsie

                                        >
                                        >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@...>
                                        >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                                        >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Thank you all for your input.
                                        >
                                        >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                                        >
                                        >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.
                                        >
                                        >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962
                                        >
                                        >>Nigel
                                        >
                                        >>hating school booking officers
                                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                                        >> From: Richard Loxley
                                        >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                                        >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                        >
                                        >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                                        >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                                        >
                                        >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                                        >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                                        >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                                        >> maybe 6 months?)
                                        >
                                        >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                                        >> everything you sell.
                                        >
                                        >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                                        >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                                        >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                                        >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                                        >
                                        >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                                        >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                                        >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                                        >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                                        >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                                        >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                                        >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                                        >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                                        >
                                        >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                                        >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                                        >> you originally wanted to do?
                                        >
                                        >>My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                                        >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                                        >> charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                                        >> to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                                        >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                                        >
                                        >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                                        >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                                        >> of former BJC organisers.
                                        >
                                        >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                                        >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                                        >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                                        >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                                        >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                                        >
                                        >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                                        >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                                        >
                                        >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                                        >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                                        >> is optional for new companies:
                                        >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                                        >
                                        >>- Richard
                                        >
                                        >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Dave Law
                                        Nottingham. See http://www.nottsjuggling.co.uk/BJC2011PROPOSAL/Welcome.html They won the vote. And Crawley convention is in erm... Crawley :-) Dave Any excuse
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jul 23, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Nottingham.

                                          See http://www.nottsjuggling.co.uk/BJC2011PROPOSAL/Welcome.html

                                          They won the vote.

                                          And Crawley convention is in erm... Crawley :-)

                                          Dave
                                          Any excuse for a gratuitous plug.

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: jonathan the jester
                                          To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:08 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?



                                          Where is BJC 2011 please?

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Plumsie
                                          To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?

                                          Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team interested in running BJC 2014.

                                          Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).

                                          If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is this a specific bid for 2014 only?

                                          Plumsie

                                          >
                                          >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@...>
                                          >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                                          >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >Thank you all for your input.
                                          >
                                          >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                                          >
                                          >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.
                                          >
                                          >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962
                                          >
                                          >>Nigel
                                          >
                                          >>hating school booking officers
                                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                                          >> From: Richard Loxley
                                          >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                          >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                                          >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                          >
                                          >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                                          >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                                          >
                                          >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                                          >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                                          >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                                          >> maybe 6 months?)
                                          >
                                          >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                                          >> everything you sell.
                                          >
                                          >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                                          >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                                          >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                                          >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                                          >
                                          >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                                          >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                                          >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                                          >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                                          >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                                          >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                                          >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                                          >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                                          >
                                          >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                                          >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                                          >> you originally wanted to do?
                                          >
                                          >>My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                                          >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                                          >> charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                                          >> to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                                          >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                                          >
                                          >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                                          >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                                          >> of former BJC organisers.
                                          >
                                          >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                                          >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                                          >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                                          >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                                          >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                                          >
                                          >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                                          >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                                          >
                                          >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                                          >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                                          >> is optional for new companies:
                                          >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                                          >
                                          >>- Richard
                                          >
                                          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mini Mansell
                                          www.bjc2011.co.uk works as well ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jul 23, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            www.bjc2011.co.uk works as well




                                            On 23 July 2010 17:31, Dave Law <davemlaw@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Nottingham.
                                            >
                                            > See http://www.nottsjuggling.co.uk/BJC2011PROPOSAL/Welcome.html
                                            >
                                            > They won the vote.
                                            >
                                            > And Crawley convention is in erm... Crawley :-)
                                            >
                                            > Dave
                                            > Any excuse for a gratuitous plug.
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: jonathan the jester
                                            > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com <uk_jugglers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:08 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                            >
                                            > Where is BJC 2011 please?
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Plumsie
                                            > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com <uk_jugglers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                            >
                                            > Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year
                                            > with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a
                                            > team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team
                                            > interested in running BJC 2014.
                                            >
                                            > Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to
                                            > run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at
                                            > the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of
                                            > booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).
                                            >
                                            > If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is
                                            > this a specific bid for 2014 only?
                                            >
                                            > Plumsie
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@... <nigel%40itshim.co.uk>>
                                            > >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com <uk_jugglers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                                            > >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > >Thank you all for your input.
                                            > >
                                            > >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems
                                            > because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting
                                            > the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day
                                            > convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                                            > >
                                            > >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council
                                            > Grant of over �20k and had income from ticket sales near �50k then I would
                                            > be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then
                                            > pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this
                                            > being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to
                                            > run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem,
                                            > unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an
                                            > individual but that all seems messy.
                                            > >
                                            > >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've
                                            > been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I
                                            > just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't
                                            > a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have
                                            > expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning
                                            > we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this
                                            > year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a
                                            > reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym
                                            > and a medium size hall only �962
                                            > >
                                            > >>Nigel
                                            > >
                                            > >>hating school booking officers
                                            > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                            > >> From: Richard Loxley
                                            > >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com <uk_jugglers%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                                            > >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                            > >
                                            > >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                                            > >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                                            > >
                                            > >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                                            > >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                                            > >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                                            > >> maybe 6 months?)
                                            > >
                                            > >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                                            > >> everything you sell.
                                            > >
                                            > >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                                            > >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                                            > >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                                            > >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                                            > >
                                            > >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                                            > >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                                            > >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                                            > >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                                            > >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                                            > >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                                            > >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                                            > >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                                            > >
                                            > >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                                            > >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                                            > >> you originally wanted to do?
                                            > >
                                            > >>My accountant charges me approx �300 for company accounts and
                                            > >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                                            > >> charges about �500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                                            > >> to �900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                                            > >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                                            > >
                                            > >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                                            > >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                                            > >> of former BJC organisers.
                                            > >
                                            > >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                                            > >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                                            > >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                                            > >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                                            > >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                                            > >
                                            > >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                                            > >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                                            > >
                                            > >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                                            > >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                                            > >> is optional for new companies:
                                            > >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                                            > >
                                            > >>- Richard
                                            > >
                                            > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • timfooleryuk
                                            ... Another way around the VAT issue is for the ongoing company to be a charity, as some income streams to charities are non VAT able, which may help keep the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jul 25, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com, "jonathan the jester" <j.jester@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Where is BJC 2011 please?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: Plumsie
                                              > To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:57 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Just to point out Nigel, Although you want to run BJC in a specific year with the number of teams that were looking at possibilities this year and a team already in place for next year there is likely to be more than one team interested in running BJC 2014.
                                              >
                                              > Whilst I know that you have been looking at that year as when you want to run your BJC, you need to make sure that your proposal is the best one at the business meeting (possibly in 2012 if we have got to the point of booking 2 years in advance which we may have done).
                                              >
                                              > If a better bid comes forward for 2014 would you want to run for 2015 or is this a specific bid for 2014 only?
                                              >
                                              > Plumsie
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > >From: Concrete Circus <nigel@...>
                                              > >To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >Sent: Fri, 14 May, 2010 13:16:30
                                              > >Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >>
                                              > >
                                              > >Thank you all for your input.
                                              > >
                                              > >>I've read and heard various organisers complaining that they had problems because they had no trading history. This was why I was thinking of starting the company this year. The year in which I plan to run my first one-day convention. Therefore I will not have a dormant account.
                                              > >
                                              > >>I was concerned about VAT because if I was able to get an Art Council Grant of over £20k and had income from ticket sales near £50k then I would be over the VAT limit. I realise that if the convention is in April then pre-reg is in a different tax year which would lessen the likelihood of this being a problem. I haven't looked to see whe Easter is in the year I wish to run a BJC. However if Easter is early then I can see this being a problem, unless the Arts council Grant isn't paid to the company but rather to an individual but that all seems messy.
                                              > >
                                              > >>I'm not worried about keeping records, submitting tax returns etc. I've been self-employed for 15 years and have learnt to jump through hoops. I just haven't run a limited company. Also having more than one director isn't a problem as we have 3 people in our core team and several others who have expressed willingness to help. Hopefully with this much long term planning we can create a great BJC in a few years time. The one-day convention this year will be advertised more closer to the date and when we have a reasonably cheap location sourced. Just got a quuote today for a small gym and a medium size hall only £962
                                              > >
                                              > >>Nigel
                                              > >
                                              > >>hating school booking officers

                                              Another way around the VAT issue is for the ongoing company to be a charity, as some income streams to charities are non VAT able, which may help keep the annual income below the VAT limit. In the business meeting at the last BJC I was proposing that a BJC charity was set up to advise / support all future BJC's. This may help with the continuity you suggest. Also If you are applying for an arts council grant to set up this company that will run the bjc in 20 , it might be a good idea if there is extensive discussion with the wider juggling community first , as if other people submit different bids with a very different vision this may not reflect well on us.

                                              Re VAT and charities see -
                                              http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/vat-how-it-affects-charities.htm

                                              hope this helps
                                              > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                              > >> From: Richard Loxley
                                              > >> To: uk_jugglers@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 12:10 PM
                                              > >> Subject: Re: [uk_jugglers] Any juggler also an accountant?
                                              > >
                                              > >>I'm director of a limited company, which I registered for VAT
                                              > >> and de-registered and I also use an accountant.
                                              > >
                                              > >>When I registered for VAT I was able to reclaim for VAT paid
                                              > >> on start-up expenses (but I think it only applies if you register
                                              > >> for VAT within a certain time-period of forming the company,
                                              > >> maybe 6 months?)
                                              > >
                                              > >>As soon as you're registered for VAT you have to charge VAT on
                                              > >> everything you sell.
                                              > >
                                              > >>Recording VAT is not too hard - you just need to add up all
                                              > >> transactions, and calculate about 4 or 5 values which you put in
                                              > >> boxes on a VAT return form every 3 months. I set up a very
                                              > >> simple spreadsheet to do it for me.
                                              > >
                                              > >>I think a VAT-registered BJC would be a nightmare - although VAT
                                              > >> is not hard to administer, it means the ticket price goes up
                                              > >> by 17.5% (or more if you believe the rumours about a possible
                                              > >> increase in the VAT rate). Admittedly you can reclaim VAT from
                                              > >> suppliers, which if BJC is pitched to break even means things
                                              > >> may cancel out, but not all your suppliers will be VAT
                                              > >> registered, so there will be a loss there. I strongly recommend
                                              > >> a BJC is budgeted to avoid VAT if at all possible.
                                              > >
                                              > >>Regarding accounts, if you file dormant accounts for not trading
                                              > >> then you won't be building up a trading history, which was what
                                              > >> you originally wanted to do?
                                              > >
                                              > >>My accountant charges me approx £300 for company accounts and
                                              > >> personal tax return in years when I have minimal trading. He
                                              > >> charges about £500 in years when I am trading normally, and up
                                              > >> to £900 in years when I've had a few hour-long meetings with
                                              > >> him to discuss business & tax advice.
                                              > >
                                              > >>I think the question you need to be asking is does a trading
                                              > >> history help a BJC, and therefore that question needs to be asked
                                              > >> of former BJC organisers.
                                              > >
                                              > >>Are you looking for evidence that the company has been around for
                                              > >> a while (which this achieves) or that the company has handled
                                              > >> money responsibly (which it may not if your accounts show a few
                                              > >> hundred pounds turnover each year, and then you suddenly put on
                                              > >> an event with a budget of tens of thousands).
                                              > >
                                              > >>My gut feeling is the hassle and expenses of keeping the company
                                              > >> ticking over probably isn't worth it.
                                              > >
                                              > >>Regarding secretaries, the law was changed recently meaning you
                                              > >> don't have to have 2 people I believe. This advice says a secretary
                                              > >> is optional for new companies:
                                              > >http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp1.shtml#ch5
                                              > >
                                              > >>- Richard
                                              > >
                                              > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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