Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Dryopteris affinis? from Spain

Expand Messages
  • foldeoeste
    Dear friends I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure.
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear friends

      I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure. Thanks.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk-ferns/photos/album/1399236671/pic/1914847833/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
    • howardfernlover
      Hi, it looks more like Dryopteris borreri to me, partly from the shape of the pinnules, but mainly because the indusia have shrivelled and are no longer
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi, it looks more like Dryopteris borreri to me, partly from the shape of the pinnules, but mainly because the indusia have shrivelled and are no longer covering the sporangia. The indusia of D. affinis do not do this, they remain in situ. Both species occur in northern Spain, incidentally.

        --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "foldeoeste" <foldeoeste@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear friends
        >
        > I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure. Thanks.
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk-ferns/photos/album/1399236671/pic/1914847833/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
        >
      • Colega
        Hi Howard Thanks for your answer. In Flora Iberica, the standard work on the iberian flora, D. borreri is treated as a subsp. of D. affinis, D. affinis subsp.
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Howard

          Thanks for your answer. In Flora Iberica, the standard work on the iberian flora, D. borreri is treated as a subsp. of D. affinis, D. affinis subsp. borreri (Newman) Fraser-Jenk. A last question: How can I distinguish between D. affinis/borreri and D. filix-mas?

          Cheers

          José
        • Martin
          I d vote for borreri too, on similar grounds and on the not-very-robust-or-scaly rhachis (rash, I know, when you can t see where on the frond we are).
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I'd vote for borreri too, on similar grounds and on the not-very-robust-or-scaly rhachis (rash, I know, when you can't see where on the frond we are).

            According to the "Guia de Helechos de la Peninsula Iberica y Baleares"
            (Enrique Salve Tierra, 1990), D. borreri "is distributed through the mountainous regions of the northern half [of the peninsula], becoming rarer towards the south".

            - Martin Rand
            BSBI Recorder, South Hampshire (VC11)

            --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "howardfernlover" <howard.fernman@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, it looks more like Dryopteris borreri to me, partly from the shape of the pinnules, but mainly because the indusia have shrivelled and are no longer covering the sporangia. The indusia of D. affinis do not do this, they remain in situ. Both species occur in northern Spain, incidentally.
            >
            > --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "foldeoeste" <foldeoeste@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear friends
            > >
            > > I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure. Thanks.
            > >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk-ferns/photos/album/1399236671/pic/1914847833/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
            > >
            >
          • Colega
            Hi Martin I have read that D. borreri has been raised to species level by Dr Fraser Jenkins. Flora Iberica is not very updated. Yes, the photo was taken at a
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Martin

              I have read that D. borreri has been raised to species level by Dr Fraser Jenkins. Flora Iberica is not very updated.

              Yes, the photo was taken at a place of Navarra very close to french border. It corresponds to the middle up of the blade.

              Cheers
            • howardfernlover
              This is my own guide to the difference between members of the Dryopteris affinis aggregate and D.filix-mas. Given that there is so much variability in the
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                This is my own guide to the difference between members of the Dryopteris affinis aggregate and D.filix-mas. Given that there is so much variability in the species, it is a very rough guide, and it is quite possible that I shall unintentionally overlook some features, in which case I am ready to be corrected by the experts.

                Initially, your eye will be drawn to plants that look slightly or greatly more robust than D.filix-mas, and with fronds that are slightly to greatly more glossy. From a short distance the upper side of the rachis of D. affinis agg. looks slightly darker compared with that of D. filix-mas which is generally more green.

                First look at where each pinna stalk (the costa) joins the rachis. There is nearly always a dark spot here on D.affinis and D.borreri, which is not present on D.filix-mas. It is clearest on the underside of the frond, though sometimes it is visible on the upper side. You may need to rub the fine scales away with your thumb to see it.

                The pinnules of D.affinis and D.borreri have more-or-less parallel sides, while those of D.filix-mas are generally more tapering (they become narrower from their base to the tip) and their sides are generally toothed.

                The above is your starting point for separating the two, but you must take all other characters into consideration as well. With parctice it becomes easier, though there are always intermediates which leave you in doubt.

                Howard.



                --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "Colega" <foldeoeste@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Howard
                >
                > Thanks for your answer. In Flora Iberica, the standard work on the iberian flora, D. borreri is treated as a subsp. of D. affinis, D. affinis subsp. borreri (Newman) Fraser-Jenk. A last question: How can I distinguish between D. affinis/borreri and D. filix-mas?
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > José
                >
              • howardfernlover
                Jose, Christopher Fraser-Jenkins 2007 paper on the species and subspecies in the Dryopteris affinis group is available in the Files section of this group.
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jose,
                  Christopher Fraser-Jenkins' 2007 paper on the species and subspecies in the Dryopteris affinis group is available in the Files section of this group.

                  Chris also wrote an excellent guide titled Dryopteris in Spain, Portugal and Macaronesia which was published in English in a Portugese journal, Boletim da Sociedade Broteriana, Series 2, Volume 55, 1982, pp. 175-336. Although it predates Flora Iberica by four years, it contains much more detail than the flora, and it should be of interest to you if you can find a copy.

                  Howard.



                  --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "Colega" <foldeoeste@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Martin
                  >
                  > I have read that D. borreri has been raised to species level by Dr Fraser Jenkins. Flora Iberica is not very updated.
                  >
                  > Yes, the photo was taken at a place of Navarra very close to french border. It corresponds to the middle up of the blade.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  >
                • Colega
                  Hi Howard Thanks a lot for the information! I can see the dark spot you say in one of the photos. Also the parallel sides of the pinnules. The key of this
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Howard

                    Thanks a lot for the information! I can see the dark spot you say in one of the photos. Also the parallel sides of the pinnules. The key of this genus in Flora Iberica says that D. filix-mas lacks scales in the rachis, but I don´t have too much practice with both species. Is this last point useful to separate both in the field?

                    Thanks again, much appreciated your help.

                    José

                    PD: I have uploaded another photo showing the whole plant.
                  • Howard
                    The dark spot is very evident in your close-up photo, Jose, while the photo of the whole plant shows another of the characters that helps tell it is D.borreri
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The dark spot is very evident in your close-up photo, Jose, while the photo of the whole plant shows another of the characters that helps tell it is D.borreri and not D.affinis, which is that the stipes are rather weak looking compared with those of D.affinis which are generally much thicker.

                      Scaliness is very variable, sometimes you see D.filix-mas which is more scaly than D.borreri, so I would not rely on that, nor with the colour of the scales which I personally feel is rather subjective.

                      I cannot speak for northern Spain, but in the UK most of the fronds on mature plants(as opposed to juveniles) of D. filix-mas are completely dead - golden and dry - by late winter, while those of D.borreri stay green a bit longer, but those of D.affinis usually stay green and glossy, even though they are flattened to the ground by wind, rain and snow, until the new fronds start to grow in the spring. I say usually because we had particularly sever weather last November and December, and only a week ago I say some D.affinis on a north facing slope in a wood, with completely dead fronds.

                      --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "Colega" <foldeoeste@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Howard
                      >
                      > Thanks a lot for the information! I can see the dark spot you say in one of the photos. Also the parallel sides of the pinnules. The key of this genus in Flora Iberica says that D. filix-mas lacks scales in the rachis, but I don´t have too much practice with both species. Is this last point useful to separate both in the field?
                      >
                      > Thanks again, much appreciated your help.
                      >
                      > José
                      >
                      > PD: I have uploaded another photo showing the whole plant.
                      >
                    • Colega
                      Thanks, Howard, very useful information. Also I´m reading now Dr Fraser Jenkins´article about D. affinis group. Best wishes Jose
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks, Howard, very useful information. Also I´m reading now Dr Fraser Jenkins´article about D. affinis group.

                        Best wishes

                        Jose
                      • Chris
                        Hello Howard and Jose, I ve just seen the photos - yes, it is definitely D. borreri in my opinion, too, for what it s worth. Cheers, Chris.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Howard and Jose,
                          I've just seen the photos - yes, it is definitely D. borreri in my opinion, too, for what it's worth.
                          Cheers,
                          Chris.

                          --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "howardfernlover" <howard.fernman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi, it looks more like Dryopteris borreri to me, partly from the shape of the pinnules, but mainly because the indusia have shrivelled and are no longer covering the sporangia. The indusia of D. affinis do not do this, they remain in situ. Both species occur in northern Spain, incidentally.
                          >
                          > --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "foldeoeste" <foldeoeste@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear friends
                          > >
                          > > I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure. Thanks.
                          > >
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk-ferns/photos/album/1399236671/pic/1914847833/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                          > >
                          >
                        • Chris
                          To be honest, I think it s a rather arbitrary matter of opinion whether to treat these taxa as species or subspecies - although I now use species, I d also be
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            To be honest, I think it's a rather arbitrary matter of opinion whether to treat these taxa as species or subspecies - although I now use species, I'd also be almost equally happy with subspecies! Though I shall not be doing so, don't worry...! Heresy, heresy!
                            There's an obscure paper on Iberian Dryopteris, mapping out the taxa from many specimens seen and identified in all the Spanish herbaria and personal collections - it is common up in the N.E., and down to the central mountains.

                            Fraser-Jenkins, C.R. 12.1982. Dryopteris in Spain, Portugal and Macaronesia, Bolm. Soc. Broteriana, ser. 2a, 55: 175-335.

                            Cheers,
                            Chris F.-J.

                            --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "Martin" <martin.rand@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I'd vote for borreri too, on similar grounds and on the not-very-robust-or-scaly rhachis (rash, I know, when you can't see where on the frond we are).
                            >
                            > According to the "Guia de Helechos de la Peninsula Iberica y Baleares"
                            > (Enrique Salve Tierra, 1990), D. borreri "is distributed through the mountainous regions of the northern half [of the peninsula], becoming rarer towards the south".
                            >
                            > - Martin Rand
                            > BSBI Recorder, South Hampshire (VC11)
                            >
                            > --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "howardfernlover" <howard.fernman@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi, it looks more like Dryopteris borreri to me, partly from the shape of the pinnules, but mainly because the indusia have shrivelled and are no longer covering the sporangia. The indusia of D. affinis do not do this, they remain in situ. Both species occur in northern Spain, incidentally.
                            > >
                            > > --- In uk-ferns@yahoogroups.com, "foldeoeste" <foldeoeste@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dear friends
                            > > >
                            > > > I wanted to ask for some help to identify this Dryopteris found in northern Spain on october 2006. I think it is D. affinis, but not 100% sure. Thanks.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uk-ferns/photos/album/1399236671/pic/1914847833/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Colega
                            Thanks for all your help! Jose
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 3, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for all your help!

                              Jose
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.