Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt

Expand Messages
  • Daniel Dudley
    Well, if you get bored, here is something that you and Don could take up. HA/HA http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8168846/?GT1=6657 Dan
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 10, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Well, if you get bored, here is something that you and Don could take up.
      HA/HA

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8168846/?GT1=6657

      Dan



      >From: "Don & Cathy Weber" <weber@...>
      >Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:27:47 -0700
      >
      >Hi Dan...
      >
      >It's so good to "hear" your voice. I don't know what to think either.
      >It's
      >not an easy, clear-cut issue, is it?
      >
      >I'm also glad to hear that Lilongwe is experiencing some good development.
      >We were saddened, as we wrote, about what we saw in Blantyre, and Limbe was
      >a disaster. Downtown Blantyre had some completed bigger buildings that
      >were
      >under construction by the time we left in '96. But, the main PTC was
      >closed
      >and empty. The 2 Whitetex fabric stores were closed and empty. The one
      >fast food chicken place that opened when we were there was closed and
      >empty.
      >However, we did find a tiny little pizza place. (The Hosteria was closed
      >but said it was moving). As we said there were no more buses...only
      >minivans in a real state of disrepair. There is a new shopping center with
      >a bright shiny supermarket with high, high prices...a package of biscuits
      >there was almost 3 times the price as the same biscuits at another store.
      >The clientele was probably 90% azungu. Across the street was a glitzy
      >office complex...owned by Muluzi. The Central Bookstore is now at the
      >shopping center...it's tiny, tiny, tiny...probably 1/10th the size of the
      >store downtown. The same guy in the wheelchair owns and operates it. He
      >said that it's now the only bookstore in Malawi???? Can't beleve there is
      >none in Lilongwe. Malawian friends in Blantyre were feeling discouraged.
      >Maybe Blantyre has outlived its day as the trade/economic center of the
      >country and that Lilongwe will take on the role. It may be a natural
      >phenomenon that historically has happened to cities around the world. Our
      >view of the country on our trip back was narrow.
      >
      >Did you receive a copy of a CARE document about worldwide education of
      >girls? Malawi ranked in overall rates of dropout by 5th grade 69th out of
      >71 countries and was used as an example of one of the failing
      >countries...with a 40% increase of dropouts in the last 10 years. The
      >statistics may be based on the fact that 11 years ago every kid rushed to
      >school because of the excitement of free education and this is a natural
      >dropoff. However, the goals for new teachers and new classrooms couldn't
      >be
      >met. Do you think education could get a boost from debt relief? On a
      >Library of Congress wall "The foundation of every state is the education of
      >its children."
      >
      >I hate to feel discouraged about a country I love so much. I must say that
      >politically it may be on the upswing, I feel very hopeful about that.
      >
      >It seems to me that some years ago select countries received debt
      >forgiveness. Am I imagining this? If it happened, does anyone know the
      >results in those countries? Might give some insight.
      >
      >Retirement gives one too much time to pontificate. Gotta go clean the
      >house.
      >
      >Cathy
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Daniel Dudley" <papadud@...>
      >To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 8:08 PM
      >Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      >
      >
      > >I don't know what to think of this conversation. I am glad that many are
      > > contributing to it though. Being someone who is has a bit of debt, I
      >have
      > > a
      > > pretty good idea of how good I would feel if someone said that all of my
      > > debts would be forgiven, but will it be any better for me? As much as I
      > > would like to think it, I have a funny feeling that I would be back in
      > > debt
      > > (maybe not as bad) in short order. It will probably be the same in
      >these
      > > developing countries, who knows for sure? Have we ever done it before?
      > > What strings will the developed countries tie on to make it just as
      > > difficult for these developing countries to succeed in other ways? I am
      > > sure that we can think of something.
      > >
      > > I have read several books recently and can't help but think how they
      >apply
      > > to this situation. The Fifth Discipline speaks about systems thinking.
      > > If
      > > we forgive the debt, what are all of the consequences of such an action?
      > > The book Collapse discusses many things, but one that sticks out in my
      > > mind
      > > is the impossibility for the planet to support a first-world lifestyle
      >for
      > > everyone. Then again when did life, liberty, and the pursuit of
      >happiness
      > > require two cars, 3 TV's, 2 computers, disposable EVERYTHING, etc. We
      >saw
      > > freezie wrappers everywhere, imagine if disposable diapers were as easy
      >to
      > > get.
      > >
      > > I also think that many of us picture Malawi exactly as we left it
      >several
      > > years ago. Behind? yes, but at a complete stand-still because of debt?
      >No.
      > > My wife is visiting family for the summer and I get to call her every
      > > couple
      > > of days. Last time she went home, I had to call her mother at the
      > > district
      > > hospital and have a messenger go to the house to tell her that I called
      > > and
      > > would call back. A couple of years ago, the telecom installed new phone
      > > lines, and many people now have phones. Gertrude's sister even has a
      >cell
      > > phone. Gertrude tells me about how much Lilongwe has
      >changed/modernized.
      > > Is it still very poor? Definately, but little by little things are
      > > changing
      > > for better or worse. Would debt forgiveness help accelerate
      >development?
      > > Probably, but would the planet, the countries, cultures, and people be
      > > able
      > > to handle it? Who knows for sure?
      > >
      > > As I re-read this my posting is a bit confusing, but is this issue any
      > > less
      > > so?
      > >
      > > Dan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >>From: "vyrle" <vyrle@...>
      > >>Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      > >>To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      > >>Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      > >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:25:29 -0700
      > >>
      > >>9 June 2005
      > >>
      > >>Dear all,
      > >>
      > >>I think I will jump in on this one for a moment.
      > >>
      > >>The debt forgiveness idea stems from the "Jubilee" year celebrated in
      > >>hebrew law as recorded in Leviticus. The description can be located in
      > >>most Bibles used by christian churches in the 25th chapter of Leviticus.
      > >>
      > >>Below is referenced an interesting study of the concept.
      > >>
      > >>Quote:
      > >>The law of Jubilee is given in the book of Leviticus. "And you shall
      > >>number
      > >>seven sabbaths of years, seven times seven years; and the space of the
      > >>seven sabbaths of years shall be unto you forty and nine years. THEN you
      > >>shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the
      > >>seventh month, in the Day of Atonement shall you make the trumpet sound
      > >>throughout all your land. And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and
      > >>PROCLAIM LIBERTY throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants
      >thereof,
      > >>it shall be a Jubilee unto you; AND YOU SHALL RETURN EVERY MAN UNTO HIS
      > >>POSSESSION, and you shall return every man unto his family" (Lev.
      > >>25:8-10).
      > >>End Quote.
      > >>
      > >>www location
      > >>http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/jubilee.html
      > >>
      > >>Google search result
      > >>Jubilee
      > >>Study of Old Testament Jubilee and its application for all creation ...
      > >>The
      > >>law of Jubilee is given in the book of Leviticus. " ... THEN you shall
      > >>cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the
      >seventh
      > >>...
      > >>
      > >>Homepage
      > >>www.hisremnant.org
      > >>
      > >>My comment:
      > >>
      > >>Notwithstanding our "cynicism" over the short term effectiveness of debt
      > >>forgiveness or the practicality of this action in the complexity of
      > >>today's
      > >>planetary economics or whether the "apathetic masses" will respond in
      > >>positive ways, there are significant benefits beyond the simple costs
      >and
      > >>cancellation of debts.
      > >>
      > >>Whether you think of poor debtor nations and their people as victims or
      > >>beneficiaries and the usurious nations as perpetrators or benefactors,
      >the
      > >>fundamental laws of the universe tend to reward the giver more than the
      > >>receiver.
      > >>
      > >>If you have had an opportunity to study the usefulness and effectiveness
      > >>of
      > >>forgiveness in conflict resolution, trauma, or simple human
      >relationships
      > >>you will probably understand that the act of forgiveness directly
      >benefits
      > >>the "forgiver" far more profoundly than the "forgiven" although both
      > >>parties benefit. I personally feel that the creditor nations and
      >peoples
      > >>of the planet will benefit from debt cancellation in many ways far
      >beyond
      > >>our current understanding.
      > >>
      > >>If our president is the man of God he proclaims to be, his support for
      > >>this
      > >>should be a simple act of faith readily forthcoming.
      > >>
      > >>Personally, as a matter of principle I think our country should
      >seriously
      > >>consider debt cancellation as an effective contribution to development
      >in
      > >>Africa and our leaders who have taken such a principled religious
      >position
      > >>on so many issues during the current administration should be consistent
      > >>and follow through with some real affirmative action rather than simple
      > >>punitive reaction.
      > >>
      > >>Vyrle
      > >>
      > >>A study of the sacred documents of the religions of the earth regarding
      > >>usury might also be revealing and probably condemnatory of both
      > >>colonialism
      > >>and neo colonialism (and some other commonly accepted business
      >practices).
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      > >>From: kristen cheney <kcheney12@...>
      > >>Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      > >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:12:54 -0700
      > >>
      > >> >Cynical, indeed -- conveniently, American-ly cynical. I'm frankly
      > >> >stunned that people who have lived in Africa for a while think it's
      > >> >better to leave countries in crippling indebtedness until their
      > >> >leaders learn to 'behave.' After all, America has such stellar
      > >> >examples of leadership for them to emulate... and it's not as if debt
      > >> >forgiveness won't come with as many western, 'democratic' hoops to
      > >> >jump through as the loans do. Still, any African I've talked to would
      > >> >rather have their national debt forgiven in efforts to end the
      > >> >relationship of dependency and take their chances with their own
      > >> >leaders than to remain yoked to IMF/World Bank policy.
      > >> >
      > >> >Paul, at the risk of you taking this as an invitation to enlighten me,
      > >> >I really don't see how forgiving countries' debt is 'taking away your
      > >> >money.' And I'm one of those who don't agree that colonialism has
      > >> >effectually ended; it's just taken on new form (i.e. "aid"). It's too
      > >> >easy as Americans to eschew that information in favor of blaming poor
      > >> >governance in Africa, but I think the issue is much more complex than
      > >> >anyone's mentioned. As it will likely fall on deaf ears, though, I'll
      > >> >spare you my 'lecture' on global structural violence. If you're an
      > >> >optimist like me who thinks debt forgiveness might help the world's
      > >> >poorest people, I just wanted to pass on an opportunity to take
      > >> >action. If you're in the cynical camp, feel free revel in your sense
      > >> >of entitlement and your own "garish mansion furnishings and tacky
      > >> >cars." Sheesh! Forget I asked.
      > >> >
      > >> >Peace out,
      > >> >KC
      > >> >
      > >> >On 6/8/05, Jesse Johnson <johnson@...> wrote:
      > >> >> originally, i held my tongue on this. but after reading paul's
      >cynical
      > >> >> cost/benefit analysis, followed by kristen's stern lecture on
      > >> >> colonialism (and neocolonialism) i thought i'd offer up my own
      > >> >> opinion.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> i guess i don't get it. what exactly do you expect debt cancellation
      > >> >> to
      > >> >> accomplish?
      > >> >>
      > >> >> consulting the source of this not so persuasive chain mail;
      > >> >>
      > >> >> http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/
      > >> >>
      > >> >> i see that this will allegedly free up poor countries to divert a
      > >> >> greater fraction of their meager revenues to helping their neediest
      > >> >> citizens rather than continue to make staggering payments servicing
      > >> >> the
      > >> >> debt.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> now, how many of us that spent a couple of years in africa expect
      > >> >> leaders of these nations to behave so nobly?
      > >> >>
      > >> >> better to bleed them out on debts. otherwise i'd expect the short
      >term
      > >> >> boom in the garish furnishings for mansions and tacky executive
      > >> >> automobile markets to destabilize the world economy. we need garish
      > >> >> mansion furnishings and tacky cars for credit card holders right
      >here
      > >>in
      > >> >> *this* country.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> and bling is definitely the happy go lucky point of view on
      >leadership
      > >> >> with a new credit card. one does not have to be very imaginative at
      > >> >> all
      > >> >> to think of the things robert mugabe or omar ahmad al-bashir could
      >do
      > >> >> with a new spending limit.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> then again, maybe i'm just cynical. or maybe you've discovered a way
      > >> >> to
      > >> >> snatch away sovereignty from poor nations, make their leaders do
      >what
      > >>is
      > >> >> in the best interest of their own people, rather than in the best
      > >> >> interest of a tiny handful of elites? if so, let me in on to your
      > >> >> secret. we need it here too.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> at any rate, it now sounds like the cheney/blair/bono triumvirate
      >will
      > >> >> be getting what their after. perhaps it is better to have at least
      > >> >> tried.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> better buy that mercedes with mink accents and bullet proof glass
      > >>quick,
      > >> >> before the price sky rockets!
      > >> >>
      > >> >> jesse
      > >> >--
      > >> >"So we starve all the teachers
      > >> >and recruit more marines.
      > >> >How come we don't even know what that means?
      > >> >It's obvious!" --Joe Jackson, The Obvious Song
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >---
      > >> >[This E-mail Scanned for viruses by Onlinemac.com]
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>________________________________________________________________
      > >>Sent via OnlineMac WebMail - www.onlinemac.com
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>---
      > >>[This E-mail Scanned for viruses by Onlinemac.com]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • vyrle
      10 June 2005 Dear Elizabeth and all, I truly appreciate the depth and breadth of this discussion so far, even if we tend to deal in quite broad generalities.
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 10, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        10 June 2005

        Dear Elizabeth and all,

        I truly appreciate the depth and breadth of this discussion so far, even if we tend to deal in quite broad generalities. I am a bit afraid of more details because as we get more specific we can get adversarially argumentative instead of cooperatively searching for truth.

        Anyway, Elizabeth, you (and all other parents dealing with the excretions of the very young) are performing the most important task in human development, nurture. Keep up the good work.

        Dolly and I are visiting our youngest grandson, who you may recall this time last year was in the Yale University neonatal ICU having entered the world at 26 weeks (or so) and not expected to live very long or very well. He has now celebrated the 1 year anniversary of that traumatic experience and is off the machines, weighs 19 pounds, stands on his own, and acts just like a normal baby of his size, weight, gender, and age. I am so very pleased by his progress and apparent arrival at "normality." But I must give much credit to his mother, our daughter, career woman, fashion model, who has spent the last year pretty much confined to daily trips to New Haven or staying at home (when he came home last January) to ensure his survival and success. Would we all be so blessed with selflessness.

        Eric, I also am not aware that any society has truly implemented the "jubilee". Whether this is a myth, part of an allegory, or parable I know not. But the laws and philosophies of the Old Testament inform a great deal of the christian world today, for good or bad. It would be nice if we rejected that which is/was obviously not so good and seriously consider that which is/was better and workable. During the nineteenth century (and probably other times) small isolated groups tried to live by some of these more positive principles. None of them exist in there idealized forms today. In the USA there was the Oneida community in Ohio, the United Order of the Mormon church, the Shakers in Kentucky, and others. It would be better to develop a more broad based and generally relevant form of idealized society.

        One of our problems is that we want to accomplish all of this in one generation. We are probably dealing with several millenia of ongoing effort. I hope we can do what is right.

        Vyrle


        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
        From: "Elizabeth Bell" <elizabeth_bell@...>
        Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:49:43 -0400

        >---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

        >Hello Gentle Ujenites,
        >
        >Not weighing in on the discussion per se, just thought I'd step outside it for a moment to say how good it is to have a forum for these discussions. I am, of course, fairly undecided and so have agreed in turn, with a hearty "yes, yes, that is so true!" to every comment and angle presented thus far.
        >
        >It is so nice to exercise that side of my brain in thinking about larger, fairly sticky global issues when so much of my energy these days is take up by spit up, poop and boogers (yes, boogers - I knew about the spit up and poop but NO ONE warned me about the boogers!).
        >
        >And now back to Jubilee and Debt Forgiveness. We apologize for interrupting your regular programming....
        >
        >: )
        >Liz
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Eric Bone
        > To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:02 PM
        > Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
        >
        >
        > One thing about our ujeni discussion so far, and the international discussion for that matter, is the level of generality, the sweeping generalizations that we employ. To me it is a much more interesting issue, and perhaps a more important one, to discuss the circumstances under which debt forgiveness can be effective and appropriate. What objectives would we expect to accomplish by canceling the debt? Under what circumstances would it be possible to accomplish those objectives? Do we have a way of measuring the ability of a country to reap the benefits of debt cancellation? Does this involve some set of criteria that the country must meet? (I suppose these would be the "hoops" Kristen referred to.)
        >
        >
        >
        > The trend of the Bush administration's international development assistance strategy is to "reward good governance" with more assistance. This is the basis of the Millenium Challenge Corporation. Whether or not you believe that this is a good model for assistance (I am as yet undecided), for the sake of consistency it would make sense for the administration also to "reward" countries with debt cancellation. So which African countries have the capacity to benefit now, and which ones would not? I don't have the answer, but I believe it would be a more fruitful line of discussion to pursue than the sweeping (neo-)colonialism vs. corruption argument.
        >
        >
        >
        > -Eric
        >
        >
        >
        > p.s. Vyrle (or anyone), has there ever been a time when the idea of the "Jubilee" redistribution of wealth every 50 years has actually been put into practice? I have never heard of any evidence of this taking place, and so when I read Leviticus I suspect that it describes a mythical view of history, just as I consider the creation stories of Genesis to be mythical. It seems to me they tell us something about a people's values, but are not to be taken literally.
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Discover Yahoo!
        > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ujeni/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > ujeni-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >





        ________________________________________________________________
        Sent via OnlineMac WebMail - www.onlinemac.com




        ---
        [This E-mail Scanned for viruses by Onlinemac.com]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.