Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

4664Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt

Expand Messages
  • Daniel Dudley
    Jun 10, 2005
      Well, if you get bored, here is something that you and Don could take up.
      HA/HA

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8168846/?GT1=6657

      Dan



      >From: "Don & Cathy Weber" <weber@...>
      >Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      >Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:27:47 -0700
      >
      >Hi Dan...
      >
      >It's so good to "hear" your voice. I don't know what to think either.
      >It's
      >not an easy, clear-cut issue, is it?
      >
      >I'm also glad to hear that Lilongwe is experiencing some good development.
      >We were saddened, as we wrote, about what we saw in Blantyre, and Limbe was
      >a disaster. Downtown Blantyre had some completed bigger buildings that
      >were
      >under construction by the time we left in '96. But, the main PTC was
      >closed
      >and empty. The 2 Whitetex fabric stores were closed and empty. The one
      >fast food chicken place that opened when we were there was closed and
      >empty.
      >However, we did find a tiny little pizza place. (The Hosteria was closed
      >but said it was moving). As we said there were no more buses...only
      >minivans in a real state of disrepair. There is a new shopping center with
      >a bright shiny supermarket with high, high prices...a package of biscuits
      >there was almost 3 times the price as the same biscuits at another store.
      >The clientele was probably 90% azungu. Across the street was a glitzy
      >office complex...owned by Muluzi. The Central Bookstore is now at the
      >shopping center...it's tiny, tiny, tiny...probably 1/10th the size of the
      >store downtown. The same guy in the wheelchair owns and operates it. He
      >said that it's now the only bookstore in Malawi???? Can't beleve there is
      >none in Lilongwe. Malawian friends in Blantyre were feeling discouraged.
      >Maybe Blantyre has outlived its day as the trade/economic center of the
      >country and that Lilongwe will take on the role. It may be a natural
      >phenomenon that historically has happened to cities around the world. Our
      >view of the country on our trip back was narrow.
      >
      >Did you receive a copy of a CARE document about worldwide education of
      >girls? Malawi ranked in overall rates of dropout by 5th grade 69th out of
      >71 countries and was used as an example of one of the failing
      >countries...with a 40% increase of dropouts in the last 10 years. The
      >statistics may be based on the fact that 11 years ago every kid rushed to
      >school because of the excitement of free education and this is a natural
      >dropoff. However, the goals for new teachers and new classrooms couldn't
      >be
      >met. Do you think education could get a boost from debt relief? On a
      >Library of Congress wall "The foundation of every state is the education of
      >its children."
      >
      >I hate to feel discouraged about a country I love so much. I must say that
      >politically it may be on the upswing, I feel very hopeful about that.
      >
      >It seems to me that some years ago select countries received debt
      >forgiveness. Am I imagining this? If it happened, does anyone know the
      >results in those countries? Might give some insight.
      >
      >Retirement gives one too much time to pontificate. Gotta go clean the
      >house.
      >
      >Cathy
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Daniel Dudley" <papadud@...>
      >To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 8:08 PM
      >Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      >
      >
      > >I don't know what to think of this conversation. I am glad that many are
      > > contributing to it though. Being someone who is has a bit of debt, I
      >have
      > > a
      > > pretty good idea of how good I would feel if someone said that all of my
      > > debts would be forgiven, but will it be any better for me? As much as I
      > > would like to think it, I have a funny feeling that I would be back in
      > > debt
      > > (maybe not as bad) in short order. It will probably be the same in
      >these
      > > developing countries, who knows for sure? Have we ever done it before?
      > > What strings will the developed countries tie on to make it just as
      > > difficult for these developing countries to succeed in other ways? I am
      > > sure that we can think of something.
      > >
      > > I have read several books recently and can't help but think how they
      >apply
      > > to this situation. The Fifth Discipline speaks about systems thinking.
      > > If
      > > we forgive the debt, what are all of the consequences of such an action?
      > > The book Collapse discusses many things, but one that sticks out in my
      > > mind
      > > is the impossibility for the planet to support a first-world lifestyle
      >for
      > > everyone. Then again when did life, liberty, and the pursuit of
      >happiness
      > > require two cars, 3 TV's, 2 computers, disposable EVERYTHING, etc. We
      >saw
      > > freezie wrappers everywhere, imagine if disposable diapers were as easy
      >to
      > > get.
      > >
      > > I also think that many of us picture Malawi exactly as we left it
      >several
      > > years ago. Behind? yes, but at a complete stand-still because of debt?
      >No.
      > > My wife is visiting family for the summer and I get to call her every
      > > couple
      > > of days. Last time she went home, I had to call her mother at the
      > > district
      > > hospital and have a messenger go to the house to tell her that I called
      > > and
      > > would call back. A couple of years ago, the telecom installed new phone
      > > lines, and many people now have phones. Gertrude's sister even has a
      >cell
      > > phone. Gertrude tells me about how much Lilongwe has
      >changed/modernized.
      > > Is it still very poor? Definately, but little by little things are
      > > changing
      > > for better or worse. Would debt forgiveness help accelerate
      >development?
      > > Probably, but would the planet, the countries, cultures, and people be
      > > able
      > > to handle it? Who knows for sure?
      > >
      > > As I re-read this my posting is a bit confusing, but is this issue any
      > > less
      > > so?
      > >
      > > Dan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >>From: "vyrle" <vyrle@...>
      > >>Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      > >>To: <ujeni@yahoogroups.com>
      > >>Subject: Re: [ujeni] Call Bush Today to Cancel African Debt
      > >>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 15:25:29 -0700
      > >>
      > >>9 June 2005
      > >>
      > >>Dear all,
      > >>
      > >>I think I will jump in on this one for a moment.
      > >>
      > >>The debt forgiveness idea stems from the "Jubilee" year celebrated in
      > >>hebrew law as recorded in Leviticus. The description can be located in
      > >>most Bibles used by christian churches in the 25th chapter of Leviticus.
      > >>
      > >>Below is referenced an interesting study of the concept.
      > >>
      > >>Quote:
      > >>The law of Jubilee is given in the book of Leviticus. "And you shall
      > >>number
      > >>seven sabbaths of years, seven times seven years; and the space of the
      > >>seven sabbaths of years shall be unto you forty and nine years. THEN you
      > >>shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the
      > >>seventh month, in the Day of Atonement shall you make the trumpet sound
      > >>throughout all your land. And you shall hallow the fiftieth year, and
      > >>PROCLAIM LIBERTY throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants
      >thereof,
      > >>it shall be a Jubilee unto you; AND YOU SHALL RETURN EVERY MAN UNTO HIS
      > >>POSSESSION, and you shall return every man unto his family" (Lev.
      > >>25:8-10).
      > >>End Quote.
      > >>
      > >>www location
      > >>http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/jubilee.html
      > >>
      > >>Google search result
      > >>Jubilee
      > >>Study of Old Testament Jubilee and its application for all creation ...
      > >>The
      > >>law of Jubilee is given in the book of Leviticus. " ... THEN you shall
      > >>cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the
      >seventh
      > >>...
      > >>
      > >>Homepage
      > >>www.hisremnant.org
      > >>
      > >>My comment:
      > >>
      > >>Notwithstanding our "cynicism" over the short term effectiveness of debt
      > >>forgiveness or the practicality of this action in the complexity of
      > >>today's
      > >>planetary economics or whether the "apathetic masses" will respond in
      > >>positive ways, there are significant benefits beyond the simple costs
      >and
      > >>cancellation of debts.
      > >>
      > >>Whether you think of poor debtor nations and their people as victims or
      > >>beneficiaries and the usurious nations as perpetrators or benefactors,
      >the
      > >>fundamental laws of the universe tend to reward the giver more than the
      > >>receiver.
      > >>
      > >>If you have had an opportunity to study the usefulness and effectiveness
      > >>of
      > >>forgiveness in conflict resolution, trauma, or simple human
      >relationships
      > >>you will probably understand that the act of forgiveness directly
      >benefits
      > >>the "forgiver" far more profoundly than the "forgiven" although both
      > >>parties benefit. I personally feel that the creditor nations and
      >peoples
      > >>of the planet will benefit from debt cancellation in many ways far
      >beyond
      > >>our current understanding.
      > >>
      > >>If our president is the man of God he proclaims to be, his support for
      > >>this
      > >>should be a simple act of faith readily forthcoming.
      > >>
      > >>Personally, as a matter of principle I think our country should
      >seriously
      > >>consider debt cancellation as an effective contribution to development
      >in
      > >>Africa and our leaders who have taken such a principled religious
      >position
      > >>on so many issues during the current administration should be consistent
      > >>and follow through with some real affirmative action rather than simple
      > >>punitive reaction.
      > >>
      > >>Vyrle
      > >>
      > >>A study of the sacred documents of the religions of the earth regarding
      > >>usury might also be revealing and probably condemnatory of both
      > >>colonialism
      > >>and neo colonialism (and some other commonly accepted business
      >practices).
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
      > >>From: kristen cheney <kcheney12@...>
      > >>Reply-To: ujeni@yahoogroups.com
      > >>Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:12:54 -0700
      > >>
      > >> >Cynical, indeed -- conveniently, American-ly cynical. I'm frankly
      > >> >stunned that people who have lived in Africa for a while think it's
      > >> >better to leave countries in crippling indebtedness until their
      > >> >leaders learn to 'behave.' After all, America has such stellar
      > >> >examples of leadership for them to emulate... and it's not as if debt
      > >> >forgiveness won't come with as many western, 'democratic' hoops to
      > >> >jump through as the loans do. Still, any African I've talked to would
      > >> >rather have their national debt forgiven in efforts to end the
      > >> >relationship of dependency and take their chances with their own
      > >> >leaders than to remain yoked to IMF/World Bank policy.
      > >> >
      > >> >Paul, at the risk of you taking this as an invitation to enlighten me,
      > >> >I really don't see how forgiving countries' debt is 'taking away your
      > >> >money.' And I'm one of those who don't agree that colonialism has
      > >> >effectually ended; it's just taken on new form (i.e. "aid"). It's too
      > >> >easy as Americans to eschew that information in favor of blaming poor
      > >> >governance in Africa, but I think the issue is much more complex than
      > >> >anyone's mentioned. As it will likely fall on deaf ears, though, I'll
      > >> >spare you my 'lecture' on global structural violence. If you're an
      > >> >optimist like me who thinks debt forgiveness might help the world's
      > >> >poorest people, I just wanted to pass on an opportunity to take
      > >> >action. If you're in the cynical camp, feel free revel in your sense
      > >> >of entitlement and your own "garish mansion furnishings and tacky
      > >> >cars." Sheesh! Forget I asked.
      > >> >
      > >> >Peace out,
      > >> >KC
      > >> >
      > >> >On 6/8/05, Jesse Johnson <johnson@...> wrote:
      > >> >> originally, i held my tongue on this. but after reading paul's
      >cynical
      > >> >> cost/benefit analysis, followed by kristen's stern lecture on
      > >> >> colonialism (and neocolonialism) i thought i'd offer up my own
      > >> >> opinion.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> i guess i don't get it. what exactly do you expect debt cancellation
      > >> >> to
      > >> >> accomplish?
      > >> >>
      > >> >> consulting the source of this not so persuasive chain mail;
      > >> >>
      > >> >> http://www.jubilee2000uk.org/
      > >> >>
      > >> >> i see that this will allegedly free up poor countries to divert a
      > >> >> greater fraction of their meager revenues to helping their neediest
      > >> >> citizens rather than continue to make staggering payments servicing
      > >> >> the
      > >> >> debt.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> now, how many of us that spent a couple of years in africa expect
      > >> >> leaders of these nations to behave so nobly?
      > >> >>
      > >> >> better to bleed them out on debts. otherwise i'd expect the short
      >term
      > >> >> boom in the garish furnishings for mansions and tacky executive
      > >> >> automobile markets to destabilize the world economy. we need garish
      > >> >> mansion furnishings and tacky cars for credit card holders right
      >here
      > >>in
      > >> >> *this* country.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> and bling is definitely the happy go lucky point of view on
      >leadership
      > >> >> with a new credit card. one does not have to be very imaginative at
      > >> >> all
      > >> >> to think of the things robert mugabe or omar ahmad al-bashir could
      >do
      > >> >> with a new spending limit.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> then again, maybe i'm just cynical. or maybe you've discovered a way
      > >> >> to
      > >> >> snatch away sovereignty from poor nations, make their leaders do
      >what
      > >>is
      > >> >> in the best interest of their own people, rather than in the best
      > >> >> interest of a tiny handful of elites? if so, let me in on to your
      > >> >> secret. we need it here too.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> at any rate, it now sounds like the cheney/blair/bono triumvirate
      >will
      > >> >> be getting what their after. perhaps it is better to have at least
      > >> >> tried.
      > >> >>
      > >> >> better buy that mercedes with mink accents and bullet proof glass
      > >>quick,
      > >> >> before the price sky rockets!
      > >> >>
      > >> >> jesse
      > >> >--
      > >> >"So we starve all the teachers
      > >> >and recruit more marines.
      > >> >How come we don't even know what that means?
      > >> >It's obvious!" --Joe Jackson, The Obvious Song
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >---
      > >> >[This E-mail Scanned for viruses by Onlinemac.com]
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>________________________________________________________________
      > >>Sent via OnlineMac WebMail - www.onlinemac.com
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>---
      > >>[This E-mail Scanned for viruses by Onlinemac.com]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Show all 20 messages in this topic