Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [UFOnet] #13 Counting coup in the final conflict

Expand Messages
  • TimeStar
    Roger: Your communications are providing a rich lode of documentation of the chaos that permeates Ufology. Thank you for the inexpensive documentation of the
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 2, 2001
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Roger: Your communications are providing a rich lode of documentation of
      the chaos that permeates Ufology. Thank you for the inexpensive
      documentation of the mentality and bias of unqualified "UFO investigators".

      At the beginning of this dialogue I decided that I would invest the time
      necessary to exchange up to 13 emails on the topic with you. We have just
      exceeded the time and energy I can afford to budget for this research.
      There's no need to continue the discussion.

      Again, thank you for the great documentation you have volunteered.

      Regards,

      Krsanna


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@...>
      To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 2:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [UFOnet] #10 Counting coup in the final conflict


      > Thanks for that Information Krsanna.
      > Jung can talk a lot of nonsense at times, no wonder some of the Nazis were
      > deceived into thinking some of his ideas justified their actions.
      > Jung admitted his theory attempting to explain the UFO phenomenon, did
      not
      > work completely, because it could not explain the physical evidence
      > sometimes left behind. So, later investigators have tried to expand on
      his
      > ideas. I am more impressed by the later amendments, than what you give as
      > Jung's theory in its original form.
      >
      > The idea that :
      > "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be
      negatively
      > distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not,
      like
      > the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is
      not
      > a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
      > essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which
      have
      > disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
      > repressed...."
      >
      > Sounds good, but then saying in the definition :
      >
      > "... the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
      > consciousness,
      > and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their
      existence
      > exclusively to heredity......."
      >
      > This is a separate idea from the first. So, he stringing together
      > assumptions. The second assumption could be invalid, while the first one
      > valid, vice versa or whatever.
      >
      > His thesis is a good guess, but there are other variations that can be
      > constructed similar to it.
      >
      > But its boring me, I would prefer to not bother any more with Jung. And
      the
      > second e-mail on Jung makes me go zzzzzzzzzz.
      >
      > The point being missed about the Data that's supposed to support
      > Reincarnation, is that there are other theories than Reincarnation that
      can
      > be constructed to try to explain the data. So, how do you prove one theory
      > over the other?
      >
      > Cheers Roger
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "TimeStar" <timestar@...>
      > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:54 AM
      > Subject: [UFOnet] #10 Counting coup in the final conflict
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Here's Jung's definition of the collective unconscious that I promised.
      > The
      > > need for defining the collective unconscious was introduced by Roger
      > > Anderton's suggestion that the factual data Jenny Cockrell's remembered
      > > about a past-life might be attributed to "Jung's Collective
      Unconscious".
      > >
      > > Since the collective unconscious, as defined by Jung, is an entirely
      > > impersonal element of the psyche comprised of archetypes, which symbolic
      > in
      > > nature, neither Jenny Cockrell's discrete knowledge nor personal
      > experience,
      > > by definition, be attributed to the collective unconscious. Jenny
      > > Cockrell's personal knowledge of a past life could only be explained by
      > > personal consciousness. According to Jung, "While the personal
      > unconscious
      > > is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious
      > but
      > > which have disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten
      or
      > > repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
      > > consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired, but
      > owe
      > > their existence exclusively to heredity."
      > >
      > > Gregory had written about Jenny Cockrell's apparent reincarnation with a
      > > short overview: "Briefly, she was living in America, getting
      flashbacks
      > of
      > > living in Ireland about 40 years previously. Not only did she find the
      > > place, she found the living children she once had, who were now older
      than
      > > her current life, who were very sceptical, until she shared personal
      > details
      > > that no one else would know."
      > >
      > > An explanation of Jung's method of proof for the collective unconscious
      is
      > > included in the same chapter cited below. Of course, if Roger has
      > concluded
      > > that C. G. Jung's work is not of interest to him, even though it was he
      > who
      > > interjected "Jung's Collective Unconscious" as an explanation for past
      > life
      > > memories, the following definition will have little relevance to Roger's
      > > fixated view. However, it might be of interest to others.
      > >
      > > Regards, Krsanna Duran
      > >
      > > THE CONCEPT OF THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS
      > > Excerpted from "The Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious"
      > > By C. G. Jung
      > >
      > > "Probably none of my empirical concepts has met with so much
      > > misunderstanding as the idea of the collective unconscious. In what
      > follows
      > > I shall try to give (1) a definition of the concept, (2) a description
      of
      > > what it means for psychology, (3) an explanation of the method of proof,
      > and
      > > (4) an example.
      > >
      > > "1. Definition
      > >
      > > "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be
      > negatively
      > > distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not,
      > like
      > > the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is
      > not
      > > a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
      > > essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which
      > have
      > > disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
      repressed,
      > > the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
      > consciousness,
      > > and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their
      > existence
      > > exclusively to heredity. Whereas the personal unconscious consists for
      > the
      > > most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is
      made
      > up
      > > essentially of archetypes.
      > >
      > > "The concept of the archetype, which is an indispensable correlate of
      the
      > > idea of the collective unconscious, indicates the existence of definite
      > > forms in the psyche which seem to be present always and everywhere.
      > > Mythological research calls them "motifs"; in the psychology of
      primitives
      > > they correspond to Levy-Bruh's concept of "representations collectives,"
      > and
      > > in the field of comparative religion they have been defined by Hubert
      and
      > > Mauss as "categories of the imagination." Adolf Bastian long ago called
      > > them "elementary" or primordial thoughts." From these references it
      > should
      > > be clear enough that my idea of the archetype - literally a pre-existent
      > > form - does not stand alone but is something that is recognized and
      named
      > in
      > > other fields of knowledge."
      > >
      > > "My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate
      > > consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we
      > believe
      > > to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal
      > unconscious
      > > as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective,
      > > universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals.
      > > This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is
      > inherited.
      > > It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become
      > > conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic
      > > contents."
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > UFOnet is an open, international, free news and discussion list dedicated
      to:
      > UFOs, Anomalous Phenomena, Astronomy, Skywatching, SETI, the Latest on
      > Aerospace Research and Space Flight, Free & New Energy, Exoscience, etc.
      > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
      > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
      > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
      > Messages to the list-owner: jkumeling@...
      >
      > Word voor fl 20,- lid van de UFOnieuwsbrief. Zes maal per jaar in de echte
      brievenbus het laatste nieuws uit de ufologie, astronomie, ruimtevaart en
      aanverwante onderwerpen. Kijk op www.ufonet.nl!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Roger Anderton
      Thanks, But I thought the chaos was coming from you. ... From: TimeStar To: Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 4, 2001
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks, But I thought the chaos was coming from you.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "TimeStar" <timestar@...>
        To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 10:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [UFOnet] #13 Counting coup in the final conflict


        > Roger: Your communications are providing a rich lode of documentation of
        > the chaos that permeates Ufology. Thank you for the inexpensive
        > documentation of the mentality and bias of unqualified "UFO
        investigators".
        >
        > At the beginning of this dialogue I decided that I would invest the time
        > necessary to exchange up to 13 emails on the topic with you. We have just
        > exceeded the time and energy I can afford to budget for this research.
        > There's no need to continue the discussion.
        >
        > Again, thank you for the great documentation you have volunteered.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Krsanna
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@...>
        > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 2:26 PM
        > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] #10 Counting coup in the final conflict
        >
        >
        > > Thanks for that Information Krsanna.
        > > Jung can talk a lot of nonsense at times, no wonder some of the Nazis
        were
        > > deceived into thinking some of his ideas justified their actions.
        > > Jung admitted his theory attempting to explain the UFO phenomenon, did
        > not
        > > work completely, because it could not explain the physical evidence
        > > sometimes left behind. So, later investigators have tried to expand on
        > his
        > > ideas. I am more impressed by the later amendments, than what you give
        as
        > > Jung's theory in its original form.
        > >
        > > The idea that :
        > > "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be
        > negatively
        > > distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not,
        > like
        > > the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is
        > not
        > > a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
        > > essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which
        > have
        > > disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
        > > repressed...."
        > >
        > > Sounds good, but then saying in the definition :
        > >
        > > "... the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
        > > consciousness,
        > > and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their
        > existence
        > > exclusively to heredity......."
        > >
        > > This is a separate idea from the first. So, he stringing together
        > > assumptions. The second assumption could be invalid, while the first one
        > > valid, vice versa or whatever.
        > >
        > > His thesis is a good guess, but there are other variations that can be
        > > constructed similar to it.
        > >
        > > But its boring me, I would prefer to not bother any more with Jung. And
        > the
        > > second e-mail on Jung makes me go zzzzzzzzzz.
        > >
        > > The point being missed about the Data that's supposed to support
        > > Reincarnation, is that there are other theories than Reincarnation that
        > can
        > > be constructed to try to explain the data. So, how do you prove one
        theory
        > > over the other?
        > >
        > > Cheers Roger
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "TimeStar" <timestar@...>
        > > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:54 AM
        > > Subject: [UFOnet] #10 Counting coup in the final conflict
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Here's Jung's definition of the collective unconscious that I
        promised.
        > > The
        > > > need for defining the collective unconscious was introduced by Roger
        > > > Anderton's suggestion that the factual data Jenny Cockrell's
        remembered
        > > > about a past-life might be attributed to "Jung's Collective
        > Unconscious".
        > > >
        > > > Since the collective unconscious, as defined by Jung, is an entirely
        > > > impersonal element of the psyche comprised of archetypes, which
        symbolic
        > > in
        > > > nature, neither Jenny Cockrell's discrete knowledge nor personal
        > > experience,
        > > > by definition, be attributed to the collective unconscious. Jenny
        > > > Cockrell's personal knowledge of a past life could only be explained
        by
        > > > personal consciousness. According to Jung, "While the personal
        > > unconscious
        > > > is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been
        conscious
        > > but
        > > > which have disappeared from consciousness through having been
        forgotten
        > or
        > > > repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been
        in
        > > > consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired,
        but
        > > owe
        > > > their existence exclusively to heredity."
        > > >
        > > > Gregory had written about Jenny Cockrell's apparent reincarnation with
        a
        > > > short overview: "Briefly, she was living in America, getting
        > flashbacks
        > > of
        > > > living in Ireland about 40 years previously. Not only did she find the
        > > > place, she found the living children she once had, who were now older
        > than
        > > > her current life, who were very sceptical, until she shared personal
        > > details
        > > > that no one else would know."
        > > >
        > > > An explanation of Jung's method of proof for the collective
        unconscious
        > is
        > > > included in the same chapter cited below. Of course, if Roger has
        > > concluded
        > > > that C. G. Jung's work is not of interest to him, even though it was
        he
        > > who
        > > > interjected "Jung's Collective Unconscious" as an explanation for past
        > > life
        > > > memories, the following definition will have little relevance to
        Roger's
        > > > fixated view. However, it might be of interest to others.
        > > >
        > > > Regards, Krsanna Duran
        > > >
        > > > THE CONCEPT OF THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS
        > > > Excerpted from "The Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious"
        > > > By C. G. Jung
        > > >
        > > > "Probably none of my empirical concepts has met with so much
        > > > misunderstanding as the idea of the collective unconscious. In what
        > > follows
        > > > I shall try to give (1) a definition of the concept, (2) a description
        > of
        > > > what it means for psychology, (3) an explanation of the method of
        proof,
        > > and
        > > > (4) an example.
        > > >
        > > > "1. Definition
        > > >
        > > > "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be
        > > negatively
        > > > distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does
        not,
        > > like
        > > > the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently
        is
        > > not
        > > > a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
        > > > essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but
        which
        > > have
        > > > disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
        > repressed,
        > > > the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
        > > consciousness,
        > > > and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their
        > > existence
        > > > exclusively to heredity. Whereas the personal unconscious consists
        for
        > > the
        > > > most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is
        > made
        > > up
        > > > essentially of archetypes.
        > > >
        > > > "The concept of the archetype, which is an indispensable correlate of
        > the
        > > > idea of the collective unconscious, indicates the existence of
        definite
        > > > forms in the psyche which seem to be present always and everywhere.
        > > > Mythological research calls them "motifs"; in the psychology of
        > primitives
        > > > they correspond to Levy-Bruh's concept of "representations
        collectives,"
        > > and
        > > > in the field of comparative religion they have been defined by Hubert
        > and
        > > > Mauss as "categories of the imagination." Adolf Bastian long ago
        called
        > > > them "elementary" or primordial thoughts." From these references it
        > > should
        > > > be clear enough that my idea of the archetype - literally a
        pre-existent
        > > > form - does not stand alone but is something that is recognized and
        > named
        > > in
        > > > other fields of knowledge."
        > > >
        > > > "My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate
        > > > consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we
        > > believe
        > > > to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal
        > > unconscious
        > > > as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective,
        > > > universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all
        individuals.
        > > > This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is
        > > inherited.
        > > > It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only
        become
        > > > conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic
        > > > contents."
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > UFOnet is an open, international, free news and discussion list
        dedicated
        > to:
        > > UFOs, Anomalous Phenomena, Astronomy, Skywatching, SETI, the Latest on
        > > Aerospace Research and Space Flight, Free & New Energy, Exoscience, etc.
        > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
        > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
        > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
        > > Messages to the list-owner: jkumeling@...
        > >
        > > Word voor fl 20,- lid van de UFOnieuwsbrief. Zes maal per jaar in de
        echte
        > brievenbus het laatste nieuws uit de ufologie, astronomie, ruimtevaart en
        > aanverwante onderwerpen. Kijk op www.ufonet.nl!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > UFOnet is an open, international, free news and discussion list dedicated
        to:
        > UFOs, Anomalous Phenomena, Astronomy, Skywatching, SETI, the Latest on
        > Aerospace Research and Space Flight, Free & New Energy, Exoscience, etc.
        > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
        > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
        > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
        > Messages to the list-owner: jkumeling@...
        >
        > Word voor fl 20,- lid van de UFOnieuwsbrief. Zes maal per jaar in de echte
        brievenbus het laatste nieuws uit de ufologie, astronomie, ruimtevaart en
        aanverwante onderwerpen. Kijk op www.ufonet.nl!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.