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#10 Counting coup in the final conflict

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  • TimeStar
    Here s Jung s definition of the collective unconscious that I promised. The need for defining the collective unconscious was introduced by Roger Anderton s
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 30, 2001
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      Here's Jung's definition of the collective unconscious that I promised. The
      need for defining the collective unconscious was introduced by Roger
      Anderton's suggestion that the factual data Jenny Cockrell's remembered
      about a past-life might be attributed to "Jung's Collective Unconscious".

      Since the collective unconscious, as defined by Jung, is an entirely
      impersonal element of the psyche comprised of archetypes, which symbolic in
      nature, neither Jenny Cockrell's discrete knowledge nor personal experience,
      by definition, be attributed to the collective unconscious. Jenny
      Cockrell's personal knowledge of a past life could only be explained by
      personal consciousness. According to Jung, "While the personal unconscious
      is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but
      which have disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
      repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
      consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe
      their existence exclusively to heredity."

      Gregory had written about Jenny Cockrell's apparent reincarnation with a
      short overview: "Briefly, she was living in America, getting flashbacks of
      living in Ireland about 40 years previously. Not only did she find the
      place, she found the living children she once had, who were now older than
      her current life, who were very sceptical, until she shared personal details
      that no one else would know."

      An explanation of Jung's method of proof for the collective unconscious is
      included in the same chapter cited below. Of course, if Roger has concluded
      that C. G. Jung's work is not of interest to him, even though it was he who
      interjected "Jung's Collective Unconscious" as an explanation for past life
      memories, the following definition will have little relevance to Roger's
      fixated view. However, it might be of interest to others.

      Regards, Krsanna Duran

      THE CONCEPT OF THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS
      Excerpted from "The Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious"
      By C. G. Jung

      "Probably none of my empirical concepts has met with so much
      misunderstanding as the idea of the collective unconscious. In what follows
      I shall try to give (1) a definition of the concept, (2) a description of
      what it means for psychology, (3) an explanation of the method of proof, and
      (4) an example.

      "1. Definition

      "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be negatively
      distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not, like
      the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is not
      a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
      essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which have
      disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or repressed,
      the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in consciousness,
      and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their existence
      exclusively to heredity. Whereas the personal unconscious consists for the
      most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is made up
      essentially of archetypes.

      "The concept of the archetype, which is an indispensable correlate of the
      idea of the collective unconscious, indicates the existence of definite
      forms in the psyche which seem to be present always and everywhere.
      Mythological research calls them "motifs"; in the psychology of primitives
      they correspond to Levy-Bruh's concept of "representations collectives," and
      in the field of comparative religion they have been defined by Hubert and
      Mauss as "categories of the imagination." Adolf Bastian long ago called
      them "elementary" or primordial thoughts." From these references it should
      be clear enough that my idea of the archetype - literally a pre-existent
      form - does not stand alone but is something that is recognized and named in
      other fields of knowledge."

      "My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate
      consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe
      to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious
      as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective,
      universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals.
      This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is inherited.
      It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become
      conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic
      contents."




      > Roger
      >
      > The Film 'Yesterdays Children' staring Jane Seymour, based on the true
      story
      > of Jenny Cockell is hard to discredit as research into reincarnation.
      > Briefly, she was living in America, getting flashbacks of living in
      Ireland
      > about 40 years previously. Not only did she find the place, she found the
      > living children she once had, who were now older than her current life,
      who
      > were very sceptical, until she shared personal details that no one else
      > would know.
      >
      > A Close friend of mine from England told me that when his father died his
      > daughter was born not so long afterwards. One day they were driving along,
      > his daughter old enough to speak, looked across to a factory, turned to
      her
      > Mom and Dad and said 'I used to work there'. Indeed his father did. It's
      not
      > measured but it makes you wonder doesn't it ?
      >
      > Another case I watched last year, I don't recall the exact details but
      > remember very clearly the indication of a boy born in a village in India,
      I
      > believe, who when old enough claimed to have lived in a recent life there.
      > He claimed to have been shot in the head during a robbery, they
      investigated
      > the incident and it was verified. The kicker being the boy had a birth
      mark
      > in exactly the same place as the entry point of the bullet in the head
      from
      > the previous life. Like Jenny Cockell the previous family now enjoy the
      > company of the boy in the knowledge of who he is to them.
      >
      > How would you explain these cases ? I attended a conference several years
      > ago that included two gentleman that claimed to have proof reincarnation
      is
      > measurable and scientificly prooven, if I can find a reference to their
      > research I will forward it on.
      >
      > regards Vince
      >
      > > From: "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@...>
      > > Reply-To: ufonet@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:54:23 +0100
      > > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Counting coup in the final conflict
      > >
      > > Krsanna
      > >
      > > This counting coup seems to be irrelevant to any enemy that does not
      notice.
      > >
      > > Genocide against women and children seems to happen in most wars by both
      > > sides, but being unpleasant it usually gets covered up.
      > >
      > > Certain prophecies seem self - fulfilling. If a person or persons is
      told
      > > they are doomed no matter what, and believe the prophecy then they can
      give
      > > up, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
      > >
      > > What I am interested in is proof not faith. If person or people believe
      in
      > > things like reincarnation. The question is - are they being deceived. If
      > > they are deceived then believing in such deceptions can allow them to
      > > accept defeat easier, because they believe the illusion that it is not
      the
      > > end.
      > >
      > > In my Britannica vol. 19, 1971 p 111 about Primitive religions it says:
      > >
      > > "... in primitive religion varieties of gods, tricksters, malevolent
      beings,
      > > fetishes, and magico - religious practices are met, with, the
      comprehensive
      > > reality is the reality of the sacred, the reality defined by [Rudolf]
      Otto
      > > as 'the holy'........"
      > >
      > > Clearly a different viewpoint not understood by the Westernised mind of
      the
      > > Europeans. Ancient ancestors from the stars would obviously be more
      > > acceptable to this point of view. What is interesting is the recognition
      > > that there are entities that are 'tricksters'. Certain UFO cases seem to
      > > have entities that are tricksters, the genuine crop circles might be
      done by
      > > tricksters, poltergeists seem tricksters, ghosts channelled as accounted
      in
      > > book Hungry Ghosts seem tricksters, a lot of tricksters seem involved
      in
      > > John Keel's book The Mothman Prophecies. A non - Western perspective is
      more
      > > prepared to accept this sort of reality.
      > >
      > > BUT how do people that accept such a reality, know when they are not
      being
      > > tricked?
      > >
      > > If such people contact an entity and it tells them things they do not
      wish
      > > to believe, do they then deem it to be a trickster?
      > >
      > > While if they contact an entity and tells them what they want to
      believe, do
      > > they then deem it as telling the truth?
      > >
      > > Is it a case that people whether they are Westernised or non-
      Westernised
      > > want to belief what is pleasant to them?
      > >
      > > Hence the non - Westerner wants to deceive themselves that reincarnation
      is
      > > real, and manages to place its Faith in a group of tricksters that tell
      it
      > > that lie?
      > >
      > > Cheers Roger
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "TimeStar" <timestar@...>
      > > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 5:59 PM
      > > Subject: [UFOnet] Counting coup in the final conflict
      > >
      > >
      > >> This is data to be included for Roger Anderton's consideration in
      > > questions about the Bohemian burning and connectedness of intelligence
      in
      > > the cosmos:
      > >>
      > >> These are the days of the final fall of Rome, a much hated empire that
      was
      > > the real subject of Revelations. Rome is surrounded by seven hills, and
      > > Rome sanitized John the Revelator's references to the seven hills to
      make
      > > the Vatican look like good and pious priests tending the Lord's sheep.
      Rome
      > > was really the wolf in sheep's clothing all along; and David Bohm
      (quantum
      > > physicist) pointed out that many of the problems with European-based
      > > sciences were reactive rebellions against religious excesses. Reactive
      > > rebellions against tyranny are as dangerous as the tyrannies they seek
      to
      > > overthrow. And that's how European-based religion and science were
      born.
      > >>
      > >> Counting coup was a tradition in Native America that contrasts the
      > > European penchant for extracting vengeance on enemies, that generated
      the
      > > next round of psychotic reaction, in Europe. Counting coup in Native
      > > America was the polar opposite of the Hebraic doctrine of taking an eye
      for
      > > an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
      > >>
      > >> In counting coup one would overtake an opponent and touch them with the
      > > weapon that would have destroyed then releasing the opponent to live
      another
      > > day. "I could kill you but am strong enough and live with a power that
      > > allows you to live," was the message of counting coup. The practice of
      > > taking scalps and body parts to count the dead was introduced by the
      French
      > > in colonial America, and was not a practice in Native America before the
      > > European influx.
      > >>
      > >> In 1887 the Apache performed as the finest light calvary on the face of
      > > the planet. Geronimo and a small band of warriors who were shaman
      evaded
      > > all efforts of the U.S. Calvary. Geronimo and his warriors surrendered
      to
      > > the U.S. Calvary, saying that they were lonely for their families. The
      U.S.
      > > Army had taken Apache women and children into captivity in the absence
      of
      > > Geronimo and his warriors and were starving them to death. Genocide of
      the
      > > Apache women and children is a well documented fact, and Geronimo and
      his
      > > warriors hoped to save their families by surrendering to the Calvary.
      > >>
      > >> The U.S. Calvary might never have caught up with the superior military
      > > force the Apache warriors represented had the Calvary not starved the
      women
      > > and children to death, thus forcing Geronimo's warriors to take the
      drastic
      > > action of surrender in a vain effort to save their families. In this
      way
      > > the U.S. Calvary fought a war of genocide against women and children
      while
      > > losing a war of skill to Geronimo's warriors.
      > >>
      > >> What the Euro-American Calvary did not understand was the shamanic
      skill
      > > of Geronimo's warriors that included knowledge of reincarnation and
      > > connection with ancestors from the stars, the ancient astronauts.
      Geronimo
      > > surrendered to the U.S. Calvary knowing they would rise to life again
      and
      > > that their people were connected to the stars.
      > >>
      > >> Geronimo's real battle took place on a front of knowledge the
      > > Euro-American never imagined. Native American prophecy had warned
      Native
      > > Americans that they would lose everything -- family, land and
      tradition --
      > > for seven generations. At the end of seven generations everything would
      be
      > > returned to the native people. Knowledge of reincarnation in Native
      > > American cast the prophesies for the seventh generation in their own
      light
      > > that few Euro-Americans ever dared to believe.
      > >>
      > >> Depending on how the generations are counted, the time for the Native
      > > American family, land and tradition to return to them has come.
      According
      > > to one Mayan count, the date that 500 years of darkness would end was
      March
      > > 15, 1995. In that month, March, 1995, the American dollar went into an
      > > unprecedented free-fall while the stock market remained relatively
      stable.
      > > The Euro-Americans soon made plans to issue two new forms of currency!!!
      > > One currency was designed to be used abroad and another currency was
      > > designed for domestic use. The articulated justification for this was
      that
      > > the different currency used outside America's borders would help control
      > > drug money.
      > >>
      > >> An articulated justification is a legal terms that describes what an
      > > organization uses as an excuse to cover-up other motives that might
      include
      > > an illegal act. So, the effort to control drug money outside America's
      > > borders was an articulated justification that could be construed to have
      > > merit that was used to cover up something else. I suggest that what
      they
      > > were really covering up was the effort to create a controlled economy
      within
      > > American borders that functioned independently of the international
      economy.
      > > This would allow Americans to believe that they were prosperous within
      > > American borders despite the real economic condition of the world. This
      > > unprecedented effort to control America's currency suggested that
      someone,
      > > somewhere suspected that the American dollar was in real trouble. Alan
      > > Greenspan of the Federal Reserve Board would be a good candidate for
      > > knowledge of the currency, and he has manipulated the currency like a
      master
      > > craftsman for the last decade.
      > >>
      > >> The free-fall of the American dollar indicated that something radical
      > > happened in March, 1995, which happened to correspond with the date of
      > > prophecy offered by the Maya. There is no currency on Planet Earth
      capable
      > > of covering up the changes taking place in the cosmos in which Earth
      > > resides, nor can the changes in the human condition accompanying the
      cosmic
      > > evolution be turned back. Mts Vesuvius and Etna quiet down from time to
      > > time but their catastrophic eruptions are inevitable, and earthquake
      > > activity in the Mediterranean area that Rome calls home continues to
      > > accelerate.
      > >>
      > >> Native America's science and prophesies are holding true in a radically
      > > changing world. In Rome's final fall that is taking place the Native
      > > American tradition suggests counting coup -- touching the enemy that
      sought
      > > to conquer the native people, land and tradition to release them in
      their
      > > fall.
      > >>
      > >> And with the shaman's knowledge of many lives and home in the stars,
      the
      > > native traditions that are rising again could kill but are strong enough
      and
      > > are sustained with a power that allows opponents to fall with grace. In
      > > 2012 Rome's final fall with those who walked in the path of the beast
      will
      > > be complete as the native traditions are starting their movement back to
      the
      > > stars. Geronimo's words for this time would probably have been simple,
      like
      > > his explanation that his warriors were lonely for their families when
      they
      > > surrendered to the U.S. Calvary.
      > >>
      > >> WE COME BACK!
      > >>
      > >> Regards,
      > >>
      > >> Krsanna Duran
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • Roger Anderton
      Thanks for that Information Krsanna. Jung can talk a lot of nonsense at times, no wonder some of the Nazis were deceived into thinking some of his ideas
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 2, 2001
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        Thanks for that Information Krsanna.
        Jung can talk a lot of nonsense at times, no wonder some of the Nazis were
        deceived into thinking some of his ideas justified their actions.
        Jung admitted his theory attempting to explain the UFO phenomenon, did not
        work completely, because it could not explain the physical evidence
        sometimes left behind. So, later investigators have tried to expand on his
        ideas. I am more impressed by the later amendments, than what you give as
        Jung's theory in its original form.

        The idea that :
        "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be negatively
        distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not, like
        the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is not
        a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
        essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which have
        disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
        repressed...."

        Sounds good, but then saying in the definition :

        "... the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
        consciousness,
        and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their existence
        exclusively to heredity......."

        This is a separate idea from the first. So, he stringing together
        assumptions. The second assumption could be invalid, while the first one
        valid, vice versa or whatever.

        His thesis is a good guess, but there are other variations that can be
        constructed similar to it.

        But its boring me, I would prefer to not bother any more with Jung. And the
        second e-mail on Jung makes me go zzzzzzzzzz.

        The point being missed about the Data that's supposed to support
        Reincarnation, is that there are other theories than Reincarnation that can
        be constructed to try to explain the data. So, how do you prove one theory
        over the other?

        Cheers Roger

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "TimeStar" <timestar@...>
        To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:54 AM
        Subject: [UFOnet] #10 Counting coup in the final conflict


        >
        > Here's Jung's definition of the collective unconscious that I promised.
        The
        > need for defining the collective unconscious was introduced by Roger
        > Anderton's suggestion that the factual data Jenny Cockrell's remembered
        > about a past-life might be attributed to "Jung's Collective Unconscious".
        >
        > Since the collective unconscious, as defined by Jung, is an entirely
        > impersonal element of the psyche comprised of archetypes, which symbolic
        in
        > nature, neither Jenny Cockrell's discrete knowledge nor personal
        experience,
        > by definition, be attributed to the collective unconscious. Jenny
        > Cockrell's personal knowledge of a past life could only be explained by
        > personal consciousness. According to Jung, "While the personal
        unconscious
        > is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious
        but
        > which have disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or
        > repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
        > consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired, but
        owe
        > their existence exclusively to heredity."
        >
        > Gregory had written about Jenny Cockrell's apparent reincarnation with a
        > short overview: "Briefly, she was living in America, getting flashbacks
        of
        > living in Ireland about 40 years previously. Not only did she find the
        > place, she found the living children she once had, who were now older than
        > her current life, who were very sceptical, until she shared personal
        details
        > that no one else would know."
        >
        > An explanation of Jung's method of proof for the collective unconscious is
        > included in the same chapter cited below. Of course, if Roger has
        concluded
        > that C. G. Jung's work is not of interest to him, even though it was he
        who
        > interjected "Jung's Collective Unconscious" as an explanation for past
        life
        > memories, the following definition will have little relevance to Roger's
        > fixated view. However, it might be of interest to others.
        >
        > Regards, Krsanna Duran
        >
        > THE CONCEPT OF THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS
        > Excerpted from "The Archetypes And The Collective Unconscious"
        > By C. G. Jung
        >
        > "Probably none of my empirical concepts has met with so much
        > misunderstanding as the idea of the collective unconscious. In what
        follows
        > I shall try to give (1) a definition of the concept, (2) a description of
        > what it means for psychology, (3) an explanation of the method of proof,
        and
        > (4) an example.
        >
        > "1. Definition
        >
        > "The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be
        negatively
        > distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that it does not,
        like
        > the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is
        not
        > a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up
        > essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which
        have
        > disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or repressed,
        > the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in
        consciousness,
        > and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe their
        existence
        > exclusively to heredity. Whereas the personal unconscious consists for
        the
        > most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is made
        up
        > essentially of archetypes.
        >
        > "The concept of the archetype, which is an indispensable correlate of the
        > idea of the collective unconscious, indicates the existence of definite
        > forms in the psyche which seem to be present always and everywhere.
        > Mythological research calls them "motifs"; in the psychology of primitives
        > they correspond to Levy-Bruh's concept of "representations collectives,"
        and
        > in the field of comparative religion they have been defined by Hubert and
        > Mauss as "categories of the imagination." Adolf Bastian long ago called
        > them "elementary" or primordial thoughts." From these references it
        should
        > be clear enough that my idea of the archetype - literally a pre-existent
        > form - does not stand alone but is something that is recognized and named
        in
        > other fields of knowledge."
        >
        > "My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate
        > consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we
        believe
        > to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal
        unconscious
        > as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective,
        > universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals.
        > This collective unconscious does not develop individually but is
        inherited.
        > It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become
        > conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic
        > contents."
        >
        >
      • Autymn D. C.
        From: Roger Anderton, R.J.Anderton@btinternet.com ... If you re asking for evidence for reincarnation, check the survivalscience eGroup archives and its
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 2, 2001
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          From: Roger Anderton, R.J.Anderton@...

          >The point being missed about the Data that's supposed to support
          >Reincarnation, is that there are other theories than Reincarnation that can
          >be constructed to try to explain the data. So, how do you prove one theory
          >over the other?
          If you're asking for evidence for reincarnation, check the
          survivalscience eGroup archives and its website, or www.victorzammit.com.
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