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Re: UFOnet: "early silicone implants leaked"

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  • Don Bennett
    To Roger Anderton; OK, I finally get your drift. I think I ve finally figured out the source of misunderstanding between us. I think you advocate banning
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 1, 2000
      To Roger Anderton;
      OK, I finally get your drift. I think I've finally figured out the source
      of misunderstanding between us. I think you advocate banning everything you
      argue against such as anything technological that ever harmed anyone or was
      present, innocent bystander or not, when someone was harmed. You think I'm
      trying to "justify" (whatever that means) the slaughter of 0.05% of the
      people who buy products that benefit humanity; benefit being defined solely
      by sales.
      When I say "So what?" I'm not being rhetorical or dismissive; I really
      want to know what are the harmful effects of silicone leakage: Is it
      painful? Unsightly? Causative of disease? What disease? Oprah on TV
      saying "Oh, how awful!" is not a disease!
      I think the most horrible thing I ever saw on TV was an eminent United
      States Government public health expert, an M.D., I believe, saying that the
      poor unschooled black STD victims who were given phony medicine so that
      science could study the course of the disease through their horrible,
      agonizing deaths, "should have been proud of their contribution to science."
      She should have been hanged with the rest of the Nazi War criminals at
      Nuremberg. At the same time, I feel that the attitude that says that every
      product defect was deliberately installed in the product to inflict harm,
      pain and death on customers in order to satisfy corporate greed is stupid.
      The famous Ford Pinto "Let 'em burn." internal corporate memo is a case in
      point. Ford measured human pain, suffering and death in terms of dollars
      because that's what the courts do. Ford was wrong and the courts were
      wrong.
      Don Bennett

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Roger Anderton <R.J.Anderton@...>
      To: ufonet@egroups.com <ufonet@egroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000 10:56 PM
      Subject: Re: UFOnet: "early silicone implants leaked"


      >
      >
      >
      >Carrying on from what you said: ".........The TV show ran a clip (I saw
      it)
      >of Carole Doda, twenty
      >years later, performing in the topless club. She has had silicone oil in
      >her breasts far longer than any other woman because she was the first. Last
      >I heard she was fine.
      >So the answer to the leakage is, once again, so what?
      >Get a little perspective on the technophobia the Luddites promote. The
      >annual traffic death toll of 50,000 killed proves the human race isn't
      ready
      >for the invention of the wheel! So what?"
      >
      >
      >The same sort of reasoning was used to justify tobacco was safe for a such
      a
      >long time 'I know someone who is in their 80s smoked all their life and
      >there's nothing wrong with them, hence smoking is not bad for your health
      >etc.' The reasoning was flawed then, and its flawed again.
      >
      >As to your "50,000 killed proves the human race isn't ready for the
      >invention of the wheel" does it really prove that or does it really prove
      >that car safety does not matter, because people don't matter in our
      society,
      >when compared to a few people making a lot of money. A similar bad product
      >is conventional science, because it seeks to justify why people are
      >unimportant, and why we have to do experimentation upon them. But all of
      >that is advertising, so that you buy the product. Buyer beware.
      >
      >It appears that covert operation involving stealth helicopters might be
      >going on in Brazil, similar to the cattle mutilations operation in N
      >America. In Brazil, people are being experimented upon. (See UFO Danger
      Zone
      >Terror and Death in Brazil - where next? by Bob Pratt ) Did you really want
      >to buy this product of "conventional science" that would justify such an
      >operation (if it exists)?
      >
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: Don Bennett <dpbennett@...>
      >To: <ufonet@egroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 3:58 AM
      >Subject: Re: UFOnet: "early silicone implants leaked"
      >
      >
      >>
      >> My source on this answer is the "60 Minutes" TV Magazine show.
      >> To fully understand the bad science behind the silicone breast
      implant
      >> controversy, you have to go all the way back to long before silicone
      >breast
      >> implants to the inventor of silicone breast enlargement, Carole Doda.
      >> That's a name the Feminazis (all five of 'em) don't want you to know.
      >> Carole Doda was a musician (saxophone, I think) who applied for a job at
      a
      >> topless club in San Francisco 'way back in the swinging sixties. The
      >> manager of the topless club told Carole Doda she couldn't work in his
      club
      >> because her breasts were not big enough. (Evidently the clientele of the
      >> club consisted of Neanderthal knuckle-draggers like me) Being an
      >inventive
      >> and enterprising young lady, Carole Doda went to a local Auto Parts store
      >> and bought a gallon or so of Automotive Grade Silicone oil. She then
      >talked
      >> a Doctor in to filling a big syringe with this Automotive Grade Silicone
      >oil
      >> and injecting it in to her breasts with a needle. She got the job, and
      so
      >> many women demanded Silicone breast enlargement that the breast implant,
      >> with silicone oil enclosed in a capsule of silicone plastic, was invented
      >to
      >> meet the demand. The TV show ran a clip (I saw it) of Carole Doda,
      twenty
      >> years later, performing in the topless club. She has had silicone oil in
      >> her breasts far longer than any other woman because she was the first.
      >Last
      >> I heard she was fine.
      >> So the answer to the leakage is, once again, so what?
      >> Get a little perspective on the technophobia the Luddites promote.
      >The
      >> annual traffic death toll of 50,000 killed proves the human race isn't
      >ready
      >> for the invention of the wheel! So what?
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: Roger Anderton <R.J.Anderton@...>
      >> To: ufonet@egroups.com <ufonet@egroups.com>
      >> Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 3:23 PM
      >> Subject: Re: UFOnet: BUDDEN's EM Fields.
      >>
      >>
      >> >
      >> >I don't know much about breast cancer, but I thought it was established
      >> that
      >> >the early silicon implants leaked.
      >> >
      >> >When it comes to studies about how many users of mobile phones have
      >cancer
      >> >compared to a control group of non users, the data ends up being
      >disputed.
      >> >
      >> >Some studies of lab animals reveals that there is an effect. But then
      >other
      >> >studies do not show an effect.
      >> >
      >> >Data is disputed. Data that showed smoking caused health problems was
      >> >disputed for a very long time. Data that asbestos was unsafe was
      disputed
      >> >for a very long time.
      >> >
      >> >It takes a very long time before evidence is agreed upon.
      >> >
      >> >But do you not think it is illogical that new products such as mobile
      >> phones
      >> >are assumed safe, and then sold to the public. There is no testing
      before
      >> >selling the product to check for any health effects. This means that the
      >> >human population is conducted to an experiment : the product is assumed
      >> >safe, and only when overwhelming evidence to the contrary is discovered
      >> from
      >> >actually doing the experiment is an erroneous assumption accepted as
      >being
      >> >wrong.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >Science has been corrupted by sellers interested in making money.
      >> >Assumptions are made that make sellers a profit. Science is applied to
      >> >problems created by sellers, and if science reveals that the assumption
      >is
      >> >erroneous then sellers say 'well we didn't know that at the time we sold
      >> it,
      >> >and can't be make responsible for the problems created by the product we
      >> >have sold' - they then take the money and run. It is a case of win- win
      >for
      >> >the seller of a product. And a case of buyer beware.
      >> >
      >> >Does this give you faith in the scientific method. Further experiments
      >are
      >> >planned to be conducted on the population, such as GM food.
      >> >
      >> >Some buyers have noticed the pattern - that science likes to claim to be
      >> >right even when it is later proven to be wrong.
      >> >
      >> >Do you enjoy being a guinea pig?
      >> >
      >> >I am saying that the theory upon which science is wrong, and the full
      >> >effects of electromagnetism have not been taken into account. This means
      >> >that the EM effects with cancer appear intermittent. And there is a
      >> >conspiracy to prevent any of this being revealed.
      >> >
      >> >Eventually this Nazi inspired experimentation program on the general
      >> >populace will create problems that our inadequate science will be unable
      >to
      >> >solve.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >----- Original Message -----
      >> >From: Don Bennett <dpbennett@...>
      >> >To: <ufonet@egroups.com>
      >> >Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 4:01 AM
      >> >Subject: Re: UFOnet: BUDDEN's EM Fields.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >>
      >> >> "There is a case in BT where an engineer was a very big user of mobile
      >> >> phones and he died of brain cancer." Here we go again. Dow spent a
      >> >zillion
      >> >> dollars to study millions of people to prove that for EVERY woman who
      >had
      >> >> silicone breast implants and came down with the cobblies (lupus,
      breast
      >> >> cancer, autoimmune disease, etc.) there was a woman who had NO breast
      >> >> implants and came down with the same diseases. By that time Dow was
      >> broke
      >> >> and the Luddites had gone on to mobile phones and brain cancer. Until
      >> you
      >> >> tell me HOW MANY people using mobile phones come down with brain
      cancer
      >> >AND
      >> >> HOW MANY people who don't use mobile phones come down with brain
      cancer
      >> >the
      >> >> answer is SO WHAT?!!!!!!!!!
      >> >> -----Original Message-----
      >> >> From: Roger Anderton <R.J.Anderton@...>
      >> >> To: ufonet@egroups.com <ufonet@egroups.com>
      >> >> Date: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 4:32 PM
      >> >> Subject: Re: UFOnet: BUDDEN's EM Fields.
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> >There is more to Budden's theorizing than that. Personally I think
      >> Budden
      >> >> is
      >> >> >a bit muddled on some things and has a collection of patch work
      >> theories,
      >> >> >without knowing the physics behind it all. But the physics has been
      >> >> >suppressed, re my Einstein conspiracy theory :
      >> >www.einsteinconspiracy.co.uk
      >> >> >
      >> >> >Budden when I pushed him, admitted to a sort of conspiracy in
      science.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >You say that you have never been affected from working in an
      >> >> electromagnetic
      >> >> >environment.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >Budden has the idea of 'electro sensitive' people, these people are
      >very
      >> >> >sensitive to electromagnetism. Since you are unaffected by
      >> >> electromagnetism,
      >> >> >then you are obviously not what he would call an 'electro sensitive'
      >> >> person.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >New Scientist this week article Metal heads p 36 - 39, gives part of
      >the
      >> >> >possible mechanism that Budden needs for his 'electro sensitive'
      >people
      >> >> >idea.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >quote : "... the human brain contains about 6 milligrams of copper,
      >> >enough
      >> >> >to print a small circuit board. Zinc, iron and manganese are just as
      >> >> >plentiful.... While we have known about metals in the body and brain
      >for
      >> >> >decades, it is only recently that science has stopped seeing them as
      >> just
      >> >> >trace elements and started to ask what on earth they are doing... the
      >> >brain
      >> >> >concentrates metals better than any other tissue in the body... our
      >> >brains
      >> >> >do not work properly without metals. Many neurons release zinc,
      copper
      >> or
      >> >> >iron to help transmit signals across synapses..."
      >> >> >
      >> >> >Now no one is really average, we are all different, we have different
      >> >> >heights, weights etc. People have different concentrations of metal
      in
      >> >> their
      >> >> >brains. Some have more, some have less than average. Metal acts like
      a
      >> >> >conductor, an aerial. An electromagnetic field must have an effect on
      >> >such
      >> >> >an arrangement. And it must be that a certain concentration of metal
      >in
      >> >> your
      >> >> >brain makes you a Budden 'electro sensitive' person. While a person
      >> >without
      >> >> >this amount of metal is not so adversely affected.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >The question: is the electromagnetic effect on a brain does it
      >activate
      >> >> >hallucinations/ dreams, or is there more involved such as can a brain
      >> act
      >> >> >like a radio set? There is a lot more to it than just this metal, for
      >> >> >instance you say:
      >> >> >
      >> >> >"ALL Radio systems, except microwaves from dishes obey the
      >> inverse-square
      >> >> >law, they drop off in intensity very rapidly, double the distance and
      >> you
      >> >> >only get a quarter of the intensity etc."
      >> >> >
      >> >> >The inverse square law is not important in this scenario. Einstein
      >> >> explained
      >> >> >the photo electric effect in terms of quanta. It was observed in
      order
      >> >for
      >> >> >light to cause a metal to emit electrons, the light had to be above a
      >> >> >certain frequency. While light below that frequency never caused the
      >> >metal
      >> >> >to emit electrons, no matter how intense the light was.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >There is no relationship between intensity of electromagnetic waves
      >(of
      >> >> >below critical freq) and emission of electrons from a metal. Hence
      the
      >> >> >inverse square law does not apply in the way that you may think. If
      >the
      >> >> >frequency you are dealing with is not of the critical type, then
      >> >intensity
      >> >> >is irrelevant.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >There is more to it than this, but you get the general idea.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >Are you sure that some of your colleagues are not being affected?
      Have
      >> >you
      >> >> >asked any of them if they get mysterious ailments? Have you noticed
      >any
      >> >> >losing their jobs?
      >> >> >I did not notice these things until I asked around. And it seems that
      >> >some
      >> >> >people are aware that mobile phones etc., cause them problems, and
      >they
      >> >try
      >> >> >to avoid using them. It is not until you ask, do you find out about
      >> these
      >> >> >things. These people do not generally like to say anything, because
      >the
      >> >> >general perception from the majority who are unaffected is, that they
      >> are
      >> >> >'whinging' about nothing.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >But the scenario reminds me of the canary bird taken down to mine
      >> shafts.
      >> >> >The canary would die first if there was lack of oxygen, and when the
      >> >miners
      >> >> >saw this they had time to get out before they too died. It seems to
      me
      >> >> these
      >> >> >'electro sensitive' people are the modern day canaries, but we are
      not
      >> >> >paying them any attention.
      >> >> >There is a case in BT where an engineer was a very big user of mobile
      >> >> phones
      >> >> >and he died of brain cancer.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >Basically orthodox physics is wrong. There is more to
      electromagnetism
      >> >than
      >> >> >currently accepted by the intellectuals in charge, and I have seen
      the
      >> >> >experiment that demonstrates this.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> >----- Original Message -----
      >> >> >From: Mike-O <Mike_ORTON_HARLECH@...>
      >> >> >To: <ufonet@egroups.com>
      >> >> >Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 6:01 PM
      >> >> >Subject: UFOnet: BUDDEN's EM Fields.
      >> >> >
      >> >> >
      >> >> >> Message text written by INTERNET:ufonet@egroups.com
      >> >> >> >Albert Budden for some time and found his stuff interesting.
      >> Basically
      >> >> he
      >> >> >> uses his Electro-Magnetic
      >> >> >> Field theory to explain UFOs too and the abduction phenomenon on
      EMF
      >> >> >effect
      >> >> >> on people's minds. <
      >> >> >> I have read one of his books, and I am not convinced with his
      ideas.
      >> >> >> During all my working life of 35 years I have worked in an
      >environment
      >> >> >> where there were very high electric fields, both 50 CPS,
      Microwaves,
      >> >VHF
      >> >> >> systems and when in Mountain Rescue, Personal RT equipment, 5-10
      >watts
      >> >a
      >> >> >> foot or so from my head.
      >> >> >> I now use a mobile phone.
      >> >> >> I have also worked very near Sames Generators, Van der Graff
      >> >Generators,
      >> >> >up
      >> >> >> to Mev X-Ray sets, Cockroft-Walton Machines, and Travelling Wave
      >type
      >> >> >> Accelerator. (35 Mev). I have worked in Labs packed full of
      various
      >> >> >> electronic black boxes.
      >> >> >> ALL Radio systems, except microwaves from dishes obey the
      >> >inverse-square
      >> >> >> law, they drop off in intensity very rapidly, double the distance
      >and
      >> >you
      >> >> >> only get a quarter of the intensity etc. So I and my fellow
      workers,
      >> >who
      >> >> >> were close to the many sources should have suffered more, seen more
      >> >UFOs
      >> >> >> and imagined that we were surrounded by little 3.5' grey monsters
      >with
      >> >> big
      >> >> >> black eyes. However we were able to carry on with highly technical
      >> >jobs,
      >> >> >> even sleep on the job without nightmares, yet the general public
      >> appear
      >> >> to
      >> >> >> suffer even if they only live near a piddling little transformer on
      >a
      >> >> >> housing estate.
      >> >> >> IF you start from the supposition that there is no life out there,
      >no
      >> >> >> aliens, therefore no UFOs and definitely no abductions, Budden's
      >> >> >> "explanation" is probably as good as any, but it is very difficult
      >to
      >> >> >> explain where the very consistant reports of abductees, the
      >> >radar-visual
      >> >> >> reports and even the Smith-Sarbacher letters fit into this EM
      >> delusion.
      >> >> >> The EM Delusion goes no way to explain the points that Harvard's
      >Prof
      >> >> Mack
      >> >> >> says need to be explained to find an explanation for Abductions,
      >other
      >> >> >than
      >> >> >> what they claim is happening to them actually is.
      >> >> >> ***********************************************
      >> >> >> Mid Wales Co-ordinator of WFIU.
      >> >> >> Mike Orton, CPhys., MInstP.,DCT(Batt)., MSRP., PGCE(Wales).
      >> >> >> 40 years in computing from Stretch to the networked Pentium, 35
      >years
      >> >as
      >> >> a
      >> >> >> Health Physicist. 25 Years in Safety Training.
      >> >> >> I.T Training, I.T.Security & Secure
      >> Access.
      >> >> >>
      >> >> >> E-Mail:
      >> >> >> Mike_orton_Harlech@...
      >> >> >> Phone:- 01766-780-665
      >> >> >> *********************************************
      >> >> >>
      >> >> >>
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    • Roger Anderton
      To Don Okay I am seeing where you are coming from a bit better. But you still don t have me completely right. I don t ..... advocate banning everything I
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 2, 2000
        To Don

        Okay I am seeing where you are coming from a bit better. But you still don't
        have me completely right.

        I don't "..... advocate banning everything I
        argue against such as anything technological that ever harmed anyone or was
        present, innocent bystander or not, when someone was harmed."

        When you said "So what" it did sound like you were dismissive of human
        suffering, so you don't mean that. Okay.

        And what you really meant " .......... I really
        want to know what are the harmful effects of silicone leakage: Is it
        painful? Unsightly? Causative of disease? What disease? ...."

        In a previous e-mail, I said I did not know enough about silicone implants.
        Silicone implants was a diversion from what I was saying.

        Products are being brought onto the market without any 'real' caring about
        whether they cause health problems to the public. The example I am most
        familiar with is mobile phones. I have talked to people who know a lot
        about electronics, and they knew before the mobile phone network was set up
        that using the frequencies they were allocated was dubious. Ionizing
        radiation is known to cause cancer. Non ionizing radiation is supposed to
        not cause cancer (I would disagree upon this accepted wisdom, but never
        mind.) The frequencies used by mobile phones are too near ionizing
        radiation. Too many frequencies have been used for other things, most of it
        Black ops and military usage, and there was not much choice left as to what
        frequencies to use for mobile phones.

        It would seem logical to check that the frequencies were safe, before using
        them. But that was not what happened, they were just assumed safe and sold
        to the public. It is now that the experiment is being conducted on people.
        Data is being gathered on cancer rates etc., and by statistics testing to
        see if any link can be connected between the product causing health
        problems. It will then be a case of 'wisdom after the event' instead of
        'wisdom before the event.'

        According to orthodox theory there will be no health problems caused by
        mobile phones. It awaits an overwhelming amount of data proving the
        opposite, before the science community will change its beliefs.

        I find this waste of human life is deplorable, because physics is based on a
        misunderstanding of Einstein, hence the theory of physics is wrong. The
        theory of physics we have inherited comes from the events that led to WWII
        by the Nazis. It is more based on the idea of 'wisdom after the event' than
        'wisdom before the event', hence it becomes part of peoples reasoning that
        science is based on needing to do human experiments etc.

        You said : "I think the most horrible thing I ever saw on TV was an eminent
        United
        States Government public health expert, an M.D., I believe, saying that the
        poor unschooled black STD victims who were given phony medicine so that
        science could study the course of the disease through their horrible,
        agonizing deaths, "should have been proud of their contribution to science."
        She should have been hanged with the rest of the Nazi War criminals at
        Nuremberg. At the same time, I feel that the attitude that says that every
        product defect was deliberately installed in the product to inflict harm,
        pain and death on customers in order to satisfy corporate greed is stupid.
        The famous Ford Pinto "Let 'em burn." internal corporate memo is a case in
        point. Ford measured human pain, suffering and death in terms of dollars
        because that's what the courts do. Ford was wrong and the courts were
        wrong."


        I agree, and the reason why there are scientists that have this attitude is
        because the science we have is wrong. (Most scientists would be cleverer
        and not speak the 'plain truth' as the person above. They would not speak
        about having a belief that science has to operate on a human experimentation
        method. They would perceive it as a case of 'you want the truth, the truth
        is you can't take the truth' i.e the public is best not knowing what they
        think science is really like. ) Orthodox science has suppressed the
        existence of an alternative science.

        One of the factors that has suppressed the alternative physics is the
        Robertson Panel. The Robertson Panel set up to debunk high quality witnesses
        of UFOs, and suppress evidence of UFOs etc. could only work if it did the
        same in the public science sector. i.e. debunked scientists with unorthodox
        views. (Else 'they' might deduce the mechanism upon which UFOs operate, and
        'spill the beans.')

        In general only scientists that follow the orthodoxy get paid, those with
        other views are generally excommunicated from the science establishment,
        lose reputations etc., and have to find other means of getting paid. It
        leaves the scientists in the physics community with the impression that the
        one framework theory that they work from is the truth, or very near the
        truth. This is because it appears to have then proven itself against all
        other contenders. But the fight between the two theories has been unfair,
        there was not a proper fight. One theory has been nobbled, and never allowed
        to get into the boxing ring. Politics has corrupted science, and it acts to
        the benefit of sellers that want to make a fast buck.

        The advertising campaign however has made it seem that there is only one
        science framework theory. There is in general at least two ways to look at
        a problem, the physics community has only be allowed one framework theory to
        work from, because of the UFO conspiracy.



        Cheers Roger

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Don Bennett <dpbennett@...>
        To: <ufonet@egroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:08 PM
        Subject: Re: UFOnet: "early silicone implants leaked"


        >
        > To Roger Anderton;
        > OK, I finally get your drift. I think I've finally figured out the source
        > of misunderstanding between us. I think you advocate banning everything
        you
        > argue against such as anything technological that ever harmed anyone or
        was
        > present, innocent bystander or not, when someone was harmed. You think
        I'm
        > trying to "justify" (whatever that means) the slaughter of 0.05% of the
        > people who buy products that benefit humanity; benefit being defined
        solely
        > by sales.
        > When I say "So what?" I'm not being rhetorical or dismissive; I really
        > want to know what are the harmful effects of silicone leakage: Is it
        > painful? Unsightly? Causative of disease? What disease? Oprah on TV
        > saying "Oh, how awful!" is not a disease!
        > I think the most horrible thing I ever saw on TV was an eminent United
        > States Government public health expert, an M.D., I believe, saying that
        the
        > poor unschooled black STD victims who were given phony medicine so that
        > science could study the course of the disease through their horrible,
        > agonizing deaths, "should have been proud of their contribution to
        science."
        > She should have been hanged with the rest of the Nazi War criminals at
        > Nuremberg. At the same time, I feel that the attitude that says that
        every
        > product defect was deliberately installed in the product to inflict harm,
        > pain and death on customers in order to satisfy corporate greed is stupid.
        > The famous Ford Pinto "Let 'em burn." internal corporate memo is a case in
        > point. Ford measured human pain, suffering and death in terms of dollars
        > because that's what the courts do. Ford was wrong and the courts were
        > wrong.
        > Don Bennett
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