Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH

Expand Messages
  • David Ocame
    I said nothing about UFOs driven by intelligent humans. I said intelligent aliens. UFOlogy is not a science. Scientists have to take the good with the bad.
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 30, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      I said nothing about UFOs driven by intelligent humans. I said intelligent aliens.

      UFOlogy is not a science. Scientists have to take the good with the bad. Their theories must stand up to intense scrutiny by being published in peer reviewed journals. Peer reviewed means that before they even get published, the papers are sent out to be reviewed by other scientists. If those scientists find the paper does not prove its claim by a preponderance of evidence, the paper does not get published. It's this kind of review process that keeps bad science from getting getting out.

      UFOlogy does not have this. Yes, Ufologists do publish papers and write books. But they are certainly not scrutinized by other scientists first. UFOLogy also seems to entail a lot of belief. People believe in UFOs. Belief is not good enough for scientists. Belief implies an overwhelming persistence of ideas without direct evidence.

      This is fine for churches. Let me be clear here. I have nothing against churches and religion (ok, yes I do. The bloodiest wars in human history have been fought in the name of religion. Anyone wanting to argue that point should look at what we are doing in Iraq and Afganistan today. But, that has nothing to do with my point). Religion and science have nothing to do with each other. I, myself, have been known to sit inside a pew or two. But, I am clear that I keep the two separate.

      Science is not a belief system, it is a proof system. Period.

      I do not believe in aliens (ETs). I can't. I've never met one, never seen its dead body nor its crashed spaceship. But, I am clear that there is overwhelming mathematical probability for their existence due to the tremendous number of stars and galaxies in this universe. It would be absurd to think there was no other life and intelligent life in the universe. I seek to find the evidence that proves this view correct. When I find it, then I will believe it.

      Lastly, as far as the Corpus Callosum is concerned. I don't think I understand your question. Sure there's a circuit breaker..it's called a scalpel. Were you looking for something different?

      Thanks,
      Dave

      "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@...> wrote:
      its

      So what about UFOs driven by intelligent humans?

      Ufology is a science. There's also pseudoufology.

      So is there some kind of circuit breaker for the corpus callosum?

      -Aut



      ***********************************
      ***********************************

      Dave Ocame, N1YVV

      East Shore Park Observatory
      FN31ng
      -72.53856 longitude
      41.16797 latitude




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Ocame
      ... Spacecraft piloted by intelligent humans or non-humans, from outside our planet, will be alien to us, regardless. ... Incorrect. ... presumptuous ... I
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        > >I said nothing about UFOs driven by intelligent
        > humans. I said intelligent aliens.
        >
        > I know, which was why I asked.

        Spacecraft piloted by intelligent humans or
        non-humans, from outside our planet, will be alien to
        us, regardless.

        > This common objection from peer review for journals
        > is in no means a prerequisite for a science

        Incorrect.

        > You'll find that your above is nothing but a
        presumptuous
        > scientistic opinion.

        I have done so and do not find this to be the case.
        You are arguing from emotion. In fact, there is no
        such word as "scientistic". Its a made up word usually
        used by those ignorant in the ways of science.

        >The sharing of claims and
        > evidence can be done by any means, usually
        > independently in ufology and related studies, but
        > the problem is that there are a lack of claims and
        > replication because the field is very open.

        True. But, that very lack is what makes it
        non-science.

        > cryptozoology, parapsychology, etc.)

        Do I have to say also that these are not sciences? OK,
        I will. They are not.

        > Whether or not it's a science has nothing to do with
        > whether it /is/ scrutinised by other scientists, but
        > whether it /can/ be. First of all the subject must
        > catch some of their attention.

        Again, true. Again, that is why it is not science.
        Thanks for amplifying my popint.

        >The professionals,
        > and their belonging journals, are usually interested
        > in phenomena which can be readily exploited for
        > monetary, social, tactical, medical, or even
        > �sthetic gain.

        Hmmmm...I've published twice in the last 2 years, I
        have yet to receive a dime for having done so. The
        journals in which I published are free to the public
        and do not accept advertisements. They have also not
        made any money. Your point is invalidated, and
        teetering on conspiracy theory.

        BTW, just because you think there is a conspiracy,
        doesn't make it so.


        > I thought they were fought over land and other
        > property, like slaves, food, livestock, and
        > integrity. What were you doing in a pew, if I may
        > ask?

        true. They were also fought over religion. Crusades
        anyone?

        > >Science is not a belief system, it is a proof
        > system. Period.
        >
        > Wrong.

        No. Right.

        >There is no such thing as scientific proof,
        > or disproof, because it relies on empiricism and
        > logical positivism. Rather, science can only found,
        > whereas only philosophy can prove.

        Science, by its very definition cannot rely on
        empiricism alone (nor logical positivism...whatever
        you think that means).

        Alright, I can see that you only want to argue. So
        this will be my last. You insist on arguing from
        nonsense (and non-science). So have it your way. UFOs
        exist because you say they do. James McDonald was
        murdered by criticism, and Phil Klass and I are both
        idiots.

        Happy now?

        I'm done with this list. I came here hoping to find
        something of value. I have not.
        Bye!

        Dave Ocame



        =====
        ***********************************
        ***********************************

        Dave Ocame, N1YVV

        East Shore Park Observatory
        FN31ng
        -72.53856 longitude
        41.16797 latitude
      • Roger Anderton
        ... Not so. The science community at present mostly ignores the Unified Field Theory of Boscovich; because of prejudices. Galileo found that he could present
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          >........That how science
          > proceeds and how it progresses.


          Not so. The science community at present mostly ignores the Unified Field
          Theory of Boscovich; because of prejudices. Galileo found that he could
          present his evidence, but his supposed peers decided to ignore it. Many in
          the science community have prejudices just as they did in Galileo's day.

          There was a time when scientists did not believe in the existence of stones
          falling from outer space. When two reputable witnesses -- Harvard professors
          reported seeing meteorites. Thomas Jefferson, one of the great minds of the
          age of Enlightenment in 1807 answered: "I could more easily believe that two
          Yankee professors would lie than that stones would fall down from heaven."

          Some people are so prejudiced that the only cure is for their brains to fall
          out.


          Roger




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David Ocame" <docame@...>
          To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:18 PM
          Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH


          >
          > Hmmm...somebody needs to take a bunch of classes in
          > how to write proper sentences and paragraphs. All I
          > can make out is thisDr. McDonald committed suicide and
          > the author of this email blames Phil Klass for it. The
          > rest is mostly ramblings and convolutions that make no
          > sense whether you read it forwards or in reverse!
          >
          > And just how is Phil Klass to blame for McDonald's
          > death? Was he even there at the time? Or, are you
          > saying that Phil's criticism pushed McDonald to take
          > his own life. Oh well! Too bad if McDonald couldn't
          > take it.
          >
          > There seems to be a lack of understanding in how
          > science works. Here. let me show you.
          > You make a statement, or a claim. You back it up with
          > whatever evidence you have. Then you publish it. At
          > that point, your statement or claim is subject to
          > intense scrutiny and criticism. That how science
          > proceeds and how it progresses. That's how scientist
          > separate the good science from the bad.
          >
          > So far, all that's been seen from the UFO community is
          > bad science...and writing. If you can call it science,
          > or writing. You want people to start listening? Start
          > doing good science and CLEAR writing. That is the only
          > way you will ever have credibility and acceptance.
          >
          > Stop bellyaching, and get to work.
          >
          > Dave Ocame
          >
          >
          > --- Alfred Lehmberg <alienview@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH -- A Review of Wendy
          > Connors' Sixth
          > Compilation of Ufological Aural History
          > by Alfred Lehmberg
          > www.AlienView.net
          >
          >
          > Wendy Connors _is_ a wonderland. She _continues_ to
          > produce the quality
          > ufological goods at her usual prodigious, if
          > worryingly race-running pace.
          > Additionally, if beside the point (...which is the
          > truly monumental
          > ufological contribution of Dr. James E. McDonald, plus
          > some cogent but
          > alternant thinking on the Extraterrestrial
          > Hypothesis...), she puts in
          > _this_ iteration of her foundational ufological
          > history series a high
          > ornament on the tree symbolizing her ever expanding
          > contribution to it! She
          > illustrates (by accident or design), in an unspoken
          > sidebar, every reason
          > one needs to have... for detesting the scurrilous
          > activities of Philip J.
          > Klass (et al), arch skeptibunky, uber-menchen CSICOP
          > storm-trooper, and
          > specious agenda grinder. Hyperbole and histrionics?
          > In my opinion,
          > decidedly, no.
          >
          >
          > Philip Klass, by way of quick explanation, and
          > forgetting that he is at the
          > tap-root of every less-than-constructive attitude our
          > hijacked mainstream
          > communicates with regard to UFOs... was socially
          > instrumental to, and so
          > holds, in my too humble opinion, _some_
          > responsibility... for the tragic
          > suicide (..._if_ that's what it was...!) of the this
          > review's hinge pin,
          > nascent ufologist Dr. James E. McDonald.
          >
          >
          > I think it can be argued, reader, that there is
          > metaphoric blood on Mr.
          > Klass' hands. Among portentously outrageous others,
          > Klass' obtuse
          > blindsiding, completely immaterial, totally baseless,
          > absolutely fraudulent,
          > and patently disingenuous attacks on the competence,
          > character,
          > intelligence, and integrity of Dr. McDonald are well
          > known and require no
          > citation.
          >
          >
          > James McDonald, indeed, was an early victim of a
          > conjectured "Mothman
          > Futility Mechanism." The sufferer of this mechanism
          > is a rational person
          > who encounters an aspect of the 'highly strange', and,
          > in a passionate
          > investigation of that very real strangeness, ends up
          > paying an awful 'price'
          > for the pursuit of that enigma's challenge... as it's
          > demanded by the
          > 'enforcement arm' (Klass et al) of the jealous
          > non-elected... "them," to put
          > a point on it. ...And please ask me who "they" are...
          > please. Please.
          >
          >
          > This story transcends mere tragedy, good reader.
          > McDonald lost a
          > shining-star career, followed by his family (A wife
          > and six kids), and then
          > finally his life... when he walked out into a lonely
          > desert, hounded by the
          > capering trolls and ardent apologists of a
          > disingenuous and corrupted
          > mainstream (Klass, et al)... and fired a 38 caliber
          > bullet into his brain.
          >
          >
          > ...
          >
          >
          > To his credit, the memory of Dr. McDonald is lauded by
          > ALL the quality
          > ufological proponents, and studiously ignored, unless
          > pressed, by the
          > opponents of same. To the discomfiting chagrin of the
          > latter, Dr. McDonald
          > actually _was_ what most mainstream scientists and
          > researchers only pretend
          > to be: data driven explorers of the brave unknown and
          > courageous surveyors
          > of our inevitable and fast approaching future ...
          > incisive scouts and
          > intrepid pioneers on a four-fold path of experience,
          > knowledge, wisdom, and
          > enlightenment!
          >
          >
          > A result of Wendy Connors' tireless diligence, Dr.
          > McDonald provides the
          > listener another "real deal": a _private_ audience
          > where he lays out, in a
          > cogent, practical, and compelling manner, [One]: the
          > case for UFOs and the
          > extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH)... [Two]: the abject
          > failure of Science,
          > Agency, Institution or Government (SAIG) to address
          > UFOs in a _remotely_
          > intelligent manner... and [Three]: the incompetent,
          > biased, and sullenly
          > canted 'official' investigations of UFOs _extant_...
          > and referenced today...
          > inexplicably, still! One begins to sense the awful
          > magnitude of the
          > terrible forces (SAIG!) that would be arrayed unjustly
          > against our intrepid
          > Doctor...
          >
          >
          > Just so we'll understand who we're dealing with here,
          > James Edward McDonald
          > held a respected Doctorate in physics from Iowa State
          > University in the
          > early fifties. He had worked there, briefly, as an
          > assistant professor in
          > meteorology. Additionally, he was a research
          > physicist in the University of
          > Chicago's department of meteorology. A member of the
          > University of Arizona
          > faculty, he was first an associate professor, then a
          > _full_ professor in the
          > real-world department of meteorology. Full
          > professorships in moneyed
          > academic departments from world-class Universities are
          > not handed out like
          > happy meals.
          >
          >
          > McDonald was also a senior physicist in the
          > University's Institute of
          > Atmospheric Physics, served as both associate director
          > and scientific
          > director... where he was a preferred advisor to
          > numerous federal agencies,
          > including the National Science Foundation, the Office
          > of Naval Research, the
          > National Academy of Sciences, and the Environmental
          > Science Service
          > Administration. If he'd been for sale to a foreign
          > government, the price tag
          > would have been in the high nine figures. This
          > individual was a world-class
          > act of trained intelligence, a top drawer scientist, a
          > hard-nosed
          > researcher, and was "afraid of nothing," ... he'd
          > also, along with his wife,
          > seen a UFO!
          >
          >
          > It's no stretch he was the Klansman skeptibunky's
          > worst nightmare. He was a
          > brave and talented intellectual, 'a man of, zeotropic,
          > color' with age,
          > experience, and reputation. He could say, and very
          > well, exactly what he
          > meant! ...And... he held the "ace river card", good
          > reader... he wore an
          > academic 'badge'!
          >
          >
          > It's no wonder that he would have to be destroyed.
          > ...And he was. Verily.
          > Thank _you_, Mr. Klass (...et al living and dead...).
          >
          >
          > Again -- Dr. McDonald was an articulate, engaging, and
          > compelling speaker
          > with a fine sense of humor as reported by seminal
          > ufologist Richard Hall,
          > and, as the listener will discover, constructively
          > humorous. He was even
          > able to make his audience _laugh_ at his opposition
          > (likely his most
          > unforgivable 'sin', on reflection, against his
          > back-shooting, corner-sniping
          > and tres-cowardly opponents) as he exemplifies, even
          > today, the totality of
          > their collective failure to pursue _real_ science with
          > reasonable examples,
          > faultless logic, and illustrative parables... or
          > pertinent conjectures based
          > on facts and truly scientific thinking... like Dr.
          > McDonald was legend to be
          > able to do... Listeners of Connors' compilation are
          > enabled to hear that for
          > themselves...
          >
          >
          > McDonald produced no books on the subject of UFOs,
          > unfortunately, but did
          > produce several short pieces on his series of lectures
          > and presentations
          > made to learned colleagues and other professional
          > persons. These talks
          > included explications on:
          >
          >
          > 1. Our Science in Default ... a paper detailing 22
          > Years of Inadequate UFO
          > Investigations
          >
          >
          > 2. The "Problem" of Unidentified Flying Objects ...
          > thoughts on perceiving a
          > cover-up.
          >
          >
          > 3. Meteorological Factors in Unidentified Radar
          > Returns
          >
          >
          > 4. UFOs And The Condon Report ... A Scientist's
          > Critique on Condon's
          > validity and procedure.
          >
          >
          > 5. Statement on UFOs ... Hearings Before The Committee
          > on Science.
          > Debunking the debunkers.
          >
          >
          > This is a hint of what the listener is treated to...
          > sober and intelligent
          > reflections on the reality of UFOs. No hyperbole or
          > histrionics... just
          > straight science as pure as the garden variety
          > skeptibunky (Klass et al)
          > would _purport_ to want to have it!
          >
          >
          > Verily! Weigh Dr. McDonald's concise speech of even
          > _yesterday_ against the
          > state of the art skeptibunker's duplicitous pule of
          > today, and be not too
          > surprised with regard to who arrives the proverbial
          > day-late-and-dollar-short! All the senseless
          > faux-skepticisms still trotted
          > out currently with insentient and numbing regularity
          > were asked and
          > answered, proffered and discredited... suggested and
          > invalidated decades ago
          > by James E. McDonald! Wendy Connors, indeed, provides
          > you with a primary
          > reference proof you can hold in your hands! UFOs
          > _are_ real!
          >
          >
          > ...That's not _all_ that will be found on Wendy's
          > current compilation!
          >
          >
          > ...There's Edward R. Murrow, one of the last few media
          > journalists who had
          > respect for the sensibilities of news consumers and
          > who believed that an
          > _informed_ public was the one best served. Not
          > resorting to cheap-shots,
          > easy sensationalism or degrading comedy, he puts the
          > subject of UFOs
          > squarely in the street during an incisive thirty
          > minute radio program... as
          > valid today as it was in 1950!
          >
          >
          > ...There's Air Chief Marshall, Lord Hugh Dowding, dead
          > in 1970, a British
          > Royal Air Force Chief of Staff, who relates his belief
          > in the ETH (a belief
          > maintained until the end of his life) on August 9,
          > 1954.
          >
          >
          > ...There's a copy of "Open Mind Debate" _ A public
          > affairs program from 1960
          > where Professor Eric F. Goldman of Princeton
          > University moderates an
          > _astonishing_ program on the subject of UFOs. The
          > subject, "Are Flying
          > Saucers Only Science Fiction"?... is debated by
          > guests: Dr. J. Allen Hynek,
          > Dr. Donald H. Menzel, Dr. Ronald Leonard Sprinkle, Dr.
          > Frank Saltzburg and
          > researcher John G. Fuller. Be amazed how cagey,
          > obfuscating, evasive, and
          > _guarded_ Dr. Menzel can be... and wonder why.
          > Reflect on why he would be
          > the _only_ panel member to get angry... Do scientists
          > _really_ do as they
          > want?
          >
          >
          > That's not all! General Douglas MacArthur holds forth
          > on UFOs and
          > extraterrestrials! Dr. Adolph G. Dittmar explicates
          > on them! Dr. Ivan T.
          > Sanderson lectures about them! Robert Coe Gardner
          > cogitates in their
          > regard... out loud! Dr. Willy Ley compellingly
          > expounds! Wow!
          >
          >
          > That's, still, not all! Twelve hours less change,
          > total time, awaits the
          > open mind and courageous heart of a curious listener.
          > ...And _be_
          > curious... good reader!
          >
          >
          > Curious, you increase our aggregate bravery to
          > challenge the unknown; by
          > becoming more brave; you expand and elevate our
          > society; you help to re-take
          > our hijacked mainstream! Additionally, you invalidate
          > the specious
          > pronouncements of Philip Klass (et al) and his
          > capering coterie of cultish
          > apologists, men who have always resorted to character
          > assassination,
          > baseless innuendo, and duplicitous mechanism... when
          > they can't debate their
          > worthy opponents competently on the issue at hand and
          > are keen, only, upon
          > grinding their own duplicitous axes...
          >
          >
          > ...And who can blame them... standing tall only
          > insures their demise... real
          > debate hastens their destruction... real dialogue only
          > provides for the
          > righteous invalidations they have earned! But, then, I
          > don't _care_ what
          > their reasons are for their obfuscation! They are not
          > shared with _me_, and
          > so are then unacceptable, on spec!
          >
          >
          > That these threadbare and disingenuous pelicanists
          > stand in the way of human
          > progression with their senseless and obstinate
          > obliviousness, that they
          > ignore recorded history, or that they connive to
          > despoil, degrade, and
          > destroy their betters... are reasons enough to
          > discredit them -- provide for
          > _their_ professional demise... dismiss _their_ legacy,
          > such as it is! Yea
          > and Verily!
          >
          >
          > Wendy Connors provides, in my opinion, ample
          > historical evidence for the
          > validity of all the preceding contentions in her
          > latest compilation, "James
          > E. McDonald & The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis." The
          > listener should not be
          > disappointed...
          >
          >
          > More info and purchase information can be found
          > contacting Wendy Connors at:
          > wendy@... ... Read on!
          >
          >
          >
          > alienview@...
          >
          > www.AlienView.net
          >
          >
          >
          > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list
          > dedicated to:
          > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the
          > Paranormal.
          >
          > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
          > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
          > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
          > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
          >
          >
          > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted
          > to this list require
          > further investigation.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufonet/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > =====
          > ***********************************
          > ***********************************
          >
          > Dave Ocame, N1YVV
          >
          > East Shore Park Observatory
          > FN31ng
          > -72.53856 longitude
          > 41.16797 latitude
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
          > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
          >
          > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
          > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
          > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
          > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
          >
          > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
          require
          > further investigation.
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Roger Anderton
          ... working with epilepsy patients. Sounds like when you are talking about ufology, it might just be a subject outside your expertise. ... Not so - in the
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            > I am a scientist working in a real lab. In fact, I am in Neurochemistry,
            working with epilepsy patients.


            Sounds like when you are talking about ufology, it might just be a subject
            outside your expertise.

            >Skeptics simply seek proof through direct evidence.

            Not so - in the philosophy movement of Skepticism, it has just become a
            mind-set of not believing evidence if it contradicts one's beliefs. The
            paragon of skeptics in the 18th C David Hume stated the credo as: "No
            testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of
            such a kind that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which
            it endeavours to establish." I suppose there is a spectrum range of
            skeptics; some skeptics being not as skeptical as other skeptics. But a
            "true" diehard skeptic is not using his brain and might as well let it fall
            out.

            Roger

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "David Ocame" <docame@...>
            To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:00 AM
            Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH


            > Oh, hey Stu. How's it going? Struck a nerve did I?
            >
            > No, I think I have Alfred dead on.
            >
            > He is in fact a lucid and very fluent user of the English
            > language,
            >
            > Lucid? Did you and I read the same passage?
            > Lucid: 1. easily understood 2. Mentally sound: sane. Webster's II
            University Edition.
            > Sorry, but nothing Alfred wrote fits this definition.
            >
            > I think the use of the word "metaphorical" probably lets him off
            > the hook in terms of accusing Klass of responsibility for
            > MacDonald's death. Anyone who knows MacDonald's life story will
            > know the reasons why he took his own life.
            >
            > However, Aflred clearly blames Phil Klass for it. This is not metaphorism,
            this is assignment of blame. It lets him off no hooks.
            >
            > Your diatribe about "science" is just that.
            >
            > D-i-a-t-r-i-b-e...diatribe: Bitterly abusive criticism or denunciation.
            also from Webster's
            >
            > I was certainly critical, this was intentional. But bitter?....no. In
            fact, I was laughing as I wrote it. I knew people would either not bother to
            listen to me, or someone would argue. Guess where you fit in, Stu?
            >
            > Alfred knows all about science
            >
            > No, now we've already covered this, Stu. Alfred has demonstrated his
            inability to understand science.
            >
            > and how it has admirably served the UFO community
            > -not.
            >
            > Science certainly has served all communities. If only you would listen and
            learn what science is saying. It is a sad fact, that all human society on
            this planet undervalues it's scientists (witness my paycheck). Our dear U.S.
            President Bush is a fine example of that. He still completely ignores
            warnings that we are causing global warming. Our negative effect on our
            planet is a sad truth. Yet, you cannot live without us! You would all still
            be living to the ripe old age of 20, but for scientists. The same is true
            for the UFO community, if only you would listen.
            >
            > No, we have not given in and said, "ok, you are right. UFOs exist." What
            we have done is shown how you have not one shred of evidence that biological
            extraterrestrials are flying spaceships through our atmosphere. Instead of
            taking that as the challenge it is, you mistook it as insult.
            >
            > Pray tell, what are you doing as a scientist to advance the
            > cause of ufology?
            >
            > I am a scientist working in a real lab. In fact, I am in Neurochemistry,
            working with epilepsy patients. I get paid to do science because I am good
            at it. I've been doing it for the past 30 years. I do nothing to advance
            ufology. As I said, I am a scientist. Ufology is NOT a science. When you
            want it to be a science, let me know and I will help.
            >
            > Or are you a complete sceptic who wishes to
            > prove the whole thing is a waste of time?
            >
            > As a matter of fact, being a skeptic is not the evil thing you make it out
            to be. Sure, skeptics doubt and raise questions. This is a bad thing?
            Skeptics simply seek proof through direct evidence. Truth is, I can't say
            UFOs (as driven by intelligent aliens) exist or don't exist. There's no
            evidence for or against them. But, when I come home from work, I spend most
            of my free time searching for this evidence. I've invested $1000s of my own
            money developing equipment to aid me in this search. At least I do that
            much. At least I do that much.
            >
            > Thanks, Dave Ocame
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ***********************************
            > ***********************************
            >
            > Dave Ocame, N1YVV
            >
            > East Shore Park Observatory
            > FN31ng
            > -72.53856 longitude
            > 41.16797 latitude
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
            > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
            >
            > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
            > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
            > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
            > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
            >
            > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
            require
            > further investigation.
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Roger Anderton
            ... name of religion. While science provides the weapons of mass destruction. ... From: David Ocame To: Autymn D. C.
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              >>ok, yes I do. The bloodiest wars in human history have been fought in the
              name of religion.

              While science provides the weapons of mass destruction.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "David Ocame" <docame@...>
              To: "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@...>; "ufos" <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH


              > I said nothing about UFOs driven by intelligent humans. I said
              intelligent aliens.
              >
              > UFOlogy is not a science. Scientists have to take the good with the bad.
              Their theories must stand up to intense scrutiny by being published in peer
              reviewed journals. Peer reviewed means that before they even get published,
              the papers are sent out to be reviewed by other scientists. If those
              scientists find the paper does not prove its claim by a preponderance of
              evidence, the paper does not get published. It's this kind of review process
              that keeps bad science from getting getting out.
              >
              > UFOlogy does not have this. Yes, Ufologists do publish papers and write
              books. But they are certainly not scrutinized by other scientists first.
              UFOLogy also seems to entail a lot of belief. People believe in UFOs. Belief
              is not good enough for scientists. Belief implies an overwhelming
              persistence of ideas without direct evidence.
              >
              > This is fine for churches. Let me be clear here. I have nothing against
              churches and religion (ok, yes I do. The bloodiest wars in human history
              have been fought in the name of religion. Anyone wanting to argue that point
              should look at what we are doing in Iraq and Afganistan today. But, that has
              nothing to do with my point). Religion and science have nothing to do with
              each other. I, myself, have been known to sit inside a pew or two. But, I am
              clear that I keep the two separate.
              >
              > Science is not a belief system, it is a proof system. Period.
              >
              > I do not believe in aliens (ETs). I can't. I've never met one, never seen
              its dead body nor its crashed spaceship. But, I am clear that there is
              overwhelming mathematical probability for their existence due to the
              tremendous number of stars and galaxies in this universe. It would be absurd
              to think there was no other life and intelligent life in the universe. I
              seek to find the evidence that proves this view correct. When I find it,
              then I will believe it.
              >
              > Lastly, as far as the Corpus Callosum is concerned. I don't think I
              understand your question. Sure there's a circuit breaker..it's called a
              scalpel. Were you looking for something different?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Dave
              >
              > "Autymn D. C." <lysdexia@...> wrote:
              > its
              >
              > So what about UFOs driven by intelligent humans?
              >
              > Ufology is a science. There's also pseudoufology.
              >
              > So is there some kind of circuit breaker for the corpus callosum?
              >
              > -Aut
              >
              >
              >
              > ***********************************
              > ***********************************
              >
              > Dave Ocame, N1YVV
              >
              > East Shore Park Observatory
              > FN31ng
              > -72.53856 longitude
              > 41.16797 latitude
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
              > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
              >
              > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
              > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
              > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
              > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
              >
              > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
              require
              > further investigation.
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Stuart Miller
              Roger Nice bunch of replies. Unfortunately, it would appear that the supercillious little twerp has fled as the temperature has warmed up a bit. But just in
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Roger

                Nice bunch of replies. Unfortunately, it would appear that the
                supercillious little twerp has fled as the temperature has
                warmed up a bit. But just in case he's still lurking.


                --- David Ocame <docame@...> wrote:

                ---------------------------------
                >Oh, hey Stu. How's it going? Struck a nerve did I?

                Yep. My funny bone. Thanks for the laugh and the inspiration for
                a new column for UFO Review. See the next issue.

                >No, I think I have Alfred dead on.

                No you don't. In fact you don't have a clue.

                >>He is in fact a lucid and very fluent user of the English
                >>language,

                >Lucid? Did you and I read the same passage?
                >Lucid: 1. easily understood 2. Mentally sound: sane. Webster's
                >II University Edition.
                >Sorry, but nothing Alfred wrote fits this definition.

                Well you can't have it both ways. Then if he's not lucid, he has
                much in common with you.

                <snip>

                >>Your diatribe about "science" is just that.

                >D-i-a-t-r-i-b-e...diatribe: Bitterly abusive criticism or
                >denunciation. also from Webster's

                >I was certainly critical, this was intentional. But
                >bitter?....no. In fact, I was laughing as I wrote it. I knew
                >people would either not bother to listen to me, or someone
                >would argue. Guess where you fit in, Stu?

                Fascinating. If a nerve was touched son, it was one of yours.
                What a hostile response to a fairly straightforward reply that
                didn't agree with yours. You're behaviour is completely in
                keeping with the atypical paranoid sceptic who has clearly been
                bruised many times in "fights" and thinks everyone is out to get
                him. You have only one means of reply - attack. Result? You come
                over as a bitter, twisted individual. Out of interest, how are
                your personal relationships? Do you have any?

                I have no desire to promote science within ufology, none at all.
                I don't believe it can serve the ufological community one little
                bit. It never has and it never really will. It's useless, and
                filled with useless individuals like yourself. You claim a
                scientific background but proudly state you've made no
                scientific contribution to Ufology. I'm not sure where you're
                coming from and I suspect you haven't got much of a clue either.

                >Science certainly has served all communities. If only you would
                >listen and learn what science is saying.

                Oh pray, do tell. What is it saying?

                >It is a sad fact, that all human society on this planet
                >undervalues it's scientists (witness my paycheck).

                Unlikely. Market forces etc.

                >Our dear U.S. President Bush is a fine example of that. He
                >still completely ignores warnings that we are causing global
                >warming. Our negative effect on our planet is a sad truth. Yet,
                >you cannot live without us! You would all still be living to
                >the ripe old age of 20, but for scientists. The same is true
                >for the UFO community, if only you would listen.

                I don't follow how no one in the ufological community would not
                live past the age of 20 without the help of science? This isn't
                errrrr lucid. Perhaps you ought to contact Alfred for lessons on
                clarity of speech.


                >No, we have not given in and said, "ok, you are right. UFOs
                >exist." What we have done is shown how you have not one shred
                >of evidence that biological extraterrestrials are flying
                >spaceships through our atmosphere. Instead of taking that as
                >the challenge it is, you mistook it as insult.

                Ooooh, listen to her!! I took nothing as an insult. Well, not
                true - your reply was insulting but not your original post. And
                I'm not sure how you have gathered exactly what my views on
                slimy aliens are. You're battle weary David. You've obviously
                been through this so many times before that you're working to a
                script. I have no idea whether biological non terrestrial beings
                fly UFOs. I do know there is abundant, ample, overwhelming,
                utterly convincing and undeniable proof that strange, anomalous
                craft have been in our skies and are here regularly. I've got
                the photos, the witness statements, and the trace evidence to
                prove all that.


                >>Or are you a complete sceptic who wishes to
                >>prove the whole thing is a waste of time?

                >As a matter of fact, being a skeptic is not the evil thing you
                >make it out to be.

                Oh for god's sake, you sad sod. Where have I said being a
                sceptic is an evil thing? For a so called scientist who should
                be used to methodolgy and proof, you appear to be unable to read
                and digest text properly. If I ever became epileptic, then keep
                any godam medication you may have worked on away from me please.
                You're not very good at this are you?

                >Sure, skeptics doubt and raise questions. This is a bad thing?

                Generally no. In your case I'm considering making an exception.

                >Skeptics simply seek proof through direct evidence. Truth is, I
                >can't say UFOs (as driven by intelligent aliens) exist or don't
                >exist. There's no evidence for or against them. But, when I
                >come home from work, I spend most of my free time searching for
                >this evidence. I've invested $1000s of my own money developing
                >equipment to aid me in this search. At least I do that much. At
                >least I do that much.

                And so good, it has to be said twice. This equipment you've been
                developing that helps search for evidence of intelligent
                extraterrestrial reality - how does it work? Is it like a little
                detector that emits a beep when one is in the presence of some
                thing not of this world? Is it one of those microwave jobbies
                that can tell you if you've got an alien inplant in your brain?
                Does it have lots of wires and batteries and steam coming out of
                various bits? Is it available by mail order and do you take
                credit cards? You have a captive market here and I wanna buy!!

                God save us.

                stuart miller
              • Ken Klingbeil
                Hi Roger, Thank you, Thank you, We might suggest next time use , Lack of understanding in stead of prejudice., But you are right on Love Life Ken ... From:
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 1, 2004
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Roger,
                  Thank you, Thank you, We might suggest next time use , Lack of
                  understanding in stead of prejudice., But you are right on
                  Love Life
                  Ken



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@...>
                  To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 9:24 AM
                  Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH


                  > >........That how science
                  > > proceeds and how it progresses.
                  >
                  >
                  > Not so. The science community at present mostly ignores the Unified Field
                  > Theory of Boscovich; because of prejudices. Galileo found that he could
                  > present his evidence, but his supposed peers decided to ignore it. Many
                  in
                  > the science community have prejudices just as they did in Galileo's day.
                  >
                  > There was a time when scientists did not believe in the existence of
                  stones
                  > falling from outer space. When two reputable witnesses -- Harvard
                  professors
                  > reported seeing meteorites. Thomas Jefferson, one of the great minds of
                  the
                  > age of Enlightenment in 1807 answered: "I could more easily believe that
                  two
                  > Yankee professors would lie than that stones would fall down from heaven."
                  >
                  > Some people are so prejudiced that the only cure is for their brains to
                  fall
                  > out.
                  >
                  >
                  > Roger
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "David Ocame" <docame@...>
                  > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:18 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hmmm...somebody needs to take a bunch of classes in
                  > > how to write proper sentences and paragraphs. All I
                  > > can make out is thisDr. McDonald committed suicide and
                  > > the author of this email blames Phil Klass for it. The
                  > > rest is mostly ramblings and convolutions that make no
                  > > sense whether you read it forwards or in reverse!
                  > >
                  > > And just how is Phil Klass to blame for McDonald's
                  > > death? Was he even there at the time? Or, are you
                  > > saying that Phil's criticism pushed McDonald to take
                  > > his own life. Oh well! Too bad if McDonald couldn't
                  > > take it.
                  > >
                  > > There seems to be a lack of understanding in how
                  > > science works. Here. let me show you.
                  > > You make a statement, or a claim. You back it up with
                  > > whatever evidence you have. Then you publish it. At
                  > > that point, your statement or claim is subject to
                  > > intense scrutiny and criticism. That how science
                  > > proceeds and how it progresses. That's how scientist
                  > > separate the good science from the bad.
                  > >
                  > > So far, all that's been seen from the UFO community is
                  > > bad science...and writing. If you can call it science,
                  > > or writing. You want people to start listening? Start
                  > > doing good science and CLEAR writing. That is the only
                  > > way you will ever have credibility and acceptance.
                  > >
                  > > Stop bellyaching, and get to work.
                  > >
                  > > Dave Ocame
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- Alfred Lehmberg <alienview@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH -- A Review of Wendy
                  > > Connors' Sixth
                  > > Compilation of Ufological Aural History
                  > > by Alfred Lehmberg
                  > > www.AlienView.net
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Wendy Connors _is_ a wonderland. She _continues_ to
                  > > produce the quality
                  > > ufological goods at her usual prodigious, if
                  > > worryingly race-running pace.
                  > > Additionally, if beside the point (...which is the
                  > > truly monumental
                  > > ufological contribution of Dr. James E. McDonald, plus
                  > > some cogent but
                  > > alternant thinking on the Extraterrestrial
                  > > Hypothesis...), she puts in
                  > > _this_ iteration of her foundational ufological
                  > > history series a high
                  > > ornament on the tree symbolizing her ever expanding
                  > > contribution to it! She
                  > > illustrates (by accident or design), in an unspoken
                  > > sidebar, every reason
                  > > one needs to have... for detesting the scurrilous
                  > > activities of Philip J.
                  > > Klass (et al), arch skeptibunky, uber-menchen CSICOP
                  > > storm-trooper, and
                  > > specious agenda grinder. Hyperbole and histrionics?
                  > > In my opinion,
                  > > decidedly, no.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Philip Klass, by way of quick explanation, and
                  > > forgetting that he is at the
                  > > tap-root of every less-than-constructive attitude our
                  > > hijacked mainstream
                  > > communicates with regard to UFOs... was socially
                  > > instrumental to, and so
                  > > holds, in my too humble opinion, _some_
                  > > responsibility... for the tragic
                  > > suicide (..._if_ that's what it was...!) of the this
                  > > review's hinge pin,
                  > > nascent ufologist Dr. James E. McDonald.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I think it can be argued, reader, that there is
                  > > metaphoric blood on Mr.
                  > > Klass' hands. Among portentously outrageous others,
                  > > Klass' obtuse
                  > > blindsiding, completely immaterial, totally baseless,
                  > > absolutely fraudulent,
                  > > and patently disingenuous attacks on the competence,
                  > > character,
                  > > intelligence, and integrity of Dr. McDonald are well
                  > > known and require no
                  > > citation.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > James McDonald, indeed, was an early victim of a
                  > > conjectured "Mothman
                  > > Futility Mechanism." The sufferer of this mechanism
                  > > is a rational person
                  > > who encounters an aspect of the 'highly strange', and,
                  > > in a passionate
                  > > investigation of that very real strangeness, ends up
                  > > paying an awful 'price'
                  > > for the pursuit of that enigma's challenge... as it's
                  > > demanded by the
                  > > 'enforcement arm' (Klass et al) of the jealous
                  > > non-elected... "them," to put
                  > > a point on it. ...And please ask me who "they" are...
                  > > please. Please.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > This story transcends mere tragedy, good reader.
                  > > McDonald lost a
                  > > shining-star career, followed by his family (A wife
                  > > and six kids), and then
                  > > finally his life... when he walked out into a lonely
                  > > desert, hounded by the
                  > > capering trolls and ardent apologists of a
                  > > disingenuous and corrupted
                  > > mainstream (Klass, et al)... and fired a 38 caliber
                  > > bullet into his brain.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To his credit, the memory of Dr. McDonald is lauded by
                  > > ALL the quality
                  > > ufological proponents, and studiously ignored, unless
                  > > pressed, by the
                  > > opponents of same. To the discomfiting chagrin of the
                  > > latter, Dr. McDonald
                  > > actually _was_ what most mainstream scientists and
                  > > researchers only pretend
                  > > to be: data driven explorers of the brave unknown and
                  > > courageous surveyors
                  > > of our inevitable and fast approaching future ...
                  > > incisive scouts and
                  > > intrepid pioneers on a four-fold path of experience,
                  > > knowledge, wisdom, and
                  > > enlightenment!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > A result of Wendy Connors' tireless diligence, Dr.
                  > > McDonald provides the
                  > > listener another "real deal": a _private_ audience
                  > > where he lays out, in a
                  > > cogent, practical, and compelling manner, [One]: the
                  > > case for UFOs and the
                  > > extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH)... [Two]: the abject
                  > > failure of Science,
                  > > Agency, Institution or Government (SAIG) to address
                  > > UFOs in a _remotely_
                  > > intelligent manner... and [Three]: the incompetent,
                  > > biased, and sullenly
                  > > canted 'official' investigations of UFOs _extant_...
                  > > and referenced today...
                  > > inexplicably, still! One begins to sense the awful
                  > > magnitude of the
                  > > terrible forces (SAIG!) that would be arrayed unjustly
                  > > against our intrepid
                  > > Doctor...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Just so we'll understand who we're dealing with here,
                  > > James Edward McDonald
                  > > held a respected Doctorate in physics from Iowa State
                  > > University in the
                  > > early fifties. He had worked there, briefly, as an
                  > > assistant professor in
                  > > meteorology. Additionally, he was a research
                  > > physicist in the University of
                  > > Chicago's department of meteorology. A member of the
                  > > University of Arizona
                  > > faculty, he was first an associate professor, then a
                  > > _full_ professor in the
                  > > real-world department of meteorology. Full
                  > > professorships in moneyed
                  > > academic departments from world-class Universities are
                  > > not handed out like
                  > > happy meals.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > McDonald was also a senior physicist in the
                  > > University's Institute of
                  > > Atmospheric Physics, served as both associate director
                  > > and scientific
                  > > director... where he was a preferred advisor to
                  > > numerous federal agencies,
                  > > including the National Science Foundation, the Office
                  > > of Naval Research, the
                  > > National Academy of Sciences, and the Environmental
                  > > Science Service
                  > > Administration. If he'd been for sale to a foreign
                  > > government, the price tag
                  > > would have been in the high nine figures. This
                  > > individual was a world-class
                  > > act of trained intelligence, a top drawer scientist, a
                  > > hard-nosed
                  > > researcher, and was "afraid of nothing," ... he'd
                  > > also, along with his wife,
                  > > seen a UFO!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It's no stretch he was the Klansman skeptibunky's
                  > > worst nightmare. He was a
                  > > brave and talented intellectual, 'a man of, zeotropic,
                  > > color' with age,
                  > > experience, and reputation. He could say, and very
                  > > well, exactly what he
                  > > meant! ...And... he held the "ace river card", good
                  > > reader... he wore an
                  > > academic 'badge'!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It's no wonder that he would have to be destroyed.
                  > > ...And he was. Verily.
                  > > Thank _you_, Mr. Klass (...et al living and dead...).
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Again -- Dr. McDonald was an articulate, engaging, and
                  > > compelling speaker
                  > > with a fine sense of humor as reported by seminal
                  > > ufologist Richard Hall,
                  > > and, as the listener will discover, constructively
                  > > humorous. He was even
                  > > able to make his audience _laugh_ at his opposition
                  > > (likely his most
                  > > unforgivable 'sin', on reflection, against his
                  > > back-shooting, corner-sniping
                  > > and tres-cowardly opponents) as he exemplifies, even
                  > > today, the totality of
                  > > their collective failure to pursue _real_ science with
                  > > reasonable examples,
                  > > faultless logic, and illustrative parables... or
                  > > pertinent conjectures based
                  > > on facts and truly scientific thinking... like Dr.
                  > > McDonald was legend to be
                  > > able to do... Listeners of Connors' compilation are
                  > > enabled to hear that for
                  > > themselves...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > McDonald produced no books on the subject of UFOs,
                  > > unfortunately, but did
                  > > produce several short pieces on his series of lectures
                  > > and presentations
                  > > made to learned colleagues and other professional
                  > > persons. These talks
                  > > included explications on:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 1. Our Science in Default ... a paper detailing 22
                  > > Years of Inadequate UFO
                  > > Investigations
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 2. The "Problem" of Unidentified Flying Objects ...
                  > > thoughts on perceiving a
                  > > cover-up.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 3. Meteorological Factors in Unidentified Radar
                  > > Returns
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 4. UFOs And The Condon Report ... A Scientist's
                  > > Critique on Condon's
                  > > validity and procedure.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 5. Statement on UFOs ... Hearings Before The Committee
                  > > on Science.
                  > > Debunking the debunkers.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > This is a hint of what the listener is treated to...
                  > > sober and intelligent
                  > > reflections on the reality of UFOs. No hyperbole or
                  > > histrionics... just
                  > > straight science as pure as the garden variety
                  > > skeptibunky (Klass et al)
                  > > would _purport_ to want to have it!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Verily! Weigh Dr. McDonald's concise speech of even
                  > > _yesterday_ against the
                  > > state of the art skeptibunker's duplicitous pule of
                  > > today, and be not too
                  > > surprised with regard to who arrives the proverbial
                  > > day-late-and-dollar-short! All the senseless
                  > > faux-skepticisms still trotted
                  > > out currently with insentient and numbing regularity
                  > > were asked and
                  > > answered, proffered and discredited... suggested and
                  > > invalidated decades ago
                  > > by James E. McDonald! Wendy Connors, indeed, provides
                  > > you with a primary
                  > > reference proof you can hold in your hands! UFOs
                  > > _are_ real!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...That's not _all_ that will be found on Wendy's
                  > > current compilation!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...There's Edward R. Murrow, one of the last few media
                  > > journalists who had
                  > > respect for the sensibilities of news consumers and
                  > > who believed that an
                  > > _informed_ public was the one best served. Not
                  > > resorting to cheap-shots,
                  > > easy sensationalism or degrading comedy, he puts the
                  > > subject of UFOs
                  > > squarely in the street during an incisive thirty
                  > > minute radio program... as
                  > > valid today as it was in 1950!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...There's Air Chief Marshall, Lord Hugh Dowding, dead
                  > > in 1970, a British
                  > > Royal Air Force Chief of Staff, who relates his belief
                  > > in the ETH (a belief
                  > > maintained until the end of his life) on August 9,
                  > > 1954.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...There's a copy of "Open Mind Debate" _ A public
                  > > affairs program from 1960
                  > > where Professor Eric F. Goldman of Princeton
                  > > University moderates an
                  > > _astonishing_ program on the subject of UFOs. The
                  > > subject, "Are Flying
                  > > Saucers Only Science Fiction"?... is debated by
                  > > guests: Dr. J. Allen Hynek,
                  > > Dr. Donald H. Menzel, Dr. Ronald Leonard Sprinkle, Dr.
                  > > Frank Saltzburg and
                  > > researcher John G. Fuller. Be amazed how cagey,
                  > > obfuscating, evasive, and
                  > > _guarded_ Dr. Menzel can be... and wonder why.
                  > > Reflect on why he would be
                  > > the _only_ panel member to get angry... Do scientists
                  > > _really_ do as they
                  > > want?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That's not all! General Douglas MacArthur holds forth
                  > > on UFOs and
                  > > extraterrestrials! Dr. Adolph G. Dittmar explicates
                  > > on them! Dr. Ivan T.
                  > > Sanderson lectures about them! Robert Coe Gardner
                  > > cogitates in their
                  > > regard... out loud! Dr. Willy Ley compellingly
                  > > expounds! Wow!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That's, still, not all! Twelve hours less change,
                  > > total time, awaits the
                  > > open mind and courageous heart of a curious listener.
                  > > ...And _be_
                  > > curious... good reader!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Curious, you increase our aggregate bravery to
                  > > challenge the unknown; by
                  > > becoming more brave; you expand and elevate our
                  > > society; you help to re-take
                  > > our hijacked mainstream! Additionally, you invalidate
                  > > the specious
                  > > pronouncements of Philip Klass (et al) and his
                  > > capering coterie of cultish
                  > > apologists, men who have always resorted to character
                  > > assassination,
                  > > baseless innuendo, and duplicitous mechanism... when
                  > > they can't debate their
                  > > worthy opponents competently on the issue at hand and
                  > > are keen, only, upon
                  > > grinding their own duplicitous axes...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ...And who can blame them... standing tall only
                  > > insures their demise... real
                  > > debate hastens their destruction... real dialogue only
                  > > provides for the
                  > > righteous invalidations they have earned! But, then, I
                  > > don't _care_ what
                  > > their reasons are for their obfuscation! They are not
                  > > shared with _me_, and
                  > > so are then unacceptable, on spec!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > That these threadbare and disingenuous pelicanists
                  > > stand in the way of human
                  > > progression with their senseless and obstinate
                  > > obliviousness, that they
                  > > ignore recorded history, or that they connive to
                  > > despoil, degrade, and
                  > > destroy their betters... are reasons enough to
                  > > discredit them -- provide for
                  > > _their_ professional demise... dismiss _their_ legacy,
                  > > such as it is! Yea
                  > > and Verily!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Wendy Connors provides, in my opinion, ample
                  > > historical evidence for the
                  > > validity of all the preceding contentions in her
                  > > latest compilation, "James
                  > > E. McDonald & The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis." The
                  > > listener should not be
                  > > disappointed...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > More info and purchase information can be found
                  > > contacting Wendy Connors at:
                  > > wendy@... ... Read on!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > alienview@...
                  > >
                  > > www.AlienView.net
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list
                  > > dedicated to:
                  > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the
                  > > Paranormal.
                  > >
                  > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                  > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted
                  > > to this list require
                  > > further investigation.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufonet/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  > > Terms of Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > =====
                  > > ***********************************
                  > > ***********************************
                  > >
                  > > Dave Ocame, N1YVV
                  > >
                  > > East Shore Park Observatory
                  > > FN31ng
                  > > -72.53856 longitude
                  > > 41.16797 latitude
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
                  > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
                  > >
                  > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                  > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                  > >
                  > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
                  > require
                  > > further investigation.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
                  > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
                  >
                  > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                  > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                  > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                  >
                  > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
                  require
                  > further investigation.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Roger Anderton
                  Dear Ken I am trying to find people that are interested in this sort of thing:-- Galileo found that his peers were doing things wrong, but he found that he was
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 2, 2004
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Ken

                    I am trying to find people that are interested in this sort of thing:--
                    Galileo found that his peers were doing things wrong, but he found that he
                    was blocked. The science revolution from Galileo has gone wrong, and those
                    in the science community have started doing things wrong just as they were
                    doing in Galileo's day.

                    In Galileo's day there were Catholic priests looking into the science
                    issues
                    that he was raising: the main group was the Society of Jesus (called
                    Jesuits)- they accepted the Copernican theory based upon their own
                    astronomical observations. But when Galileo went before the Inquistion,
                    they
                    did not come forward to defend him. Anyway the Jesuits continued their
                    scientific investigations, and then it came to the question of Newton's
                    theory. Upon the advice of the Jesuit Father Boscovich - Newton's theory
                    was
                    accepted. But Boscovich had a more advanced theory than Newton's.
                    Boscovich's theory was the basis for Quantum theory and Relativity theory,
                    it is the Unified Field Theory - that is being ignored. And by Paul Hill
                    NASA scientist study of UFOs his conclusion that some are using the UFT,
                    means that the scientists are not dealing with the relevant physics theory!

                    Roger
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Ken Klingbeil" <kenkling35@...>
                    > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 3:01 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Hi Roger,
                    > > Thank you, Thank you, We might suggest next time use , Lack of
                    > > understanding in stead of prejudice., But you are right on
                    > > Love Life
                    > > Ken
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@...>
                    > > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 9:24 AM
                    > > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > >........That how science
                    > > > > proceeds and how it progresses.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Not so. The science community at present mostly ignores the Unified
                    > Field
                    > > > Theory of Boscovich; because of prejudices. Galileo found that he
                    could
                    > > > present his evidence, but his supposed peers decided to ignore it.
                    Many
                    > > in
                    > > > the science community have prejudices just as they did in Galileo's
                    > day.
                    > > >
                    > > > There was a time when scientists did not believe in the existence of
                    > > stones
                    > > > falling from outer space. When two reputable witnesses -- Harvard
                    > > professors
                    > > > reported seeing meteorites. Thomas Jefferson, one of the great minds
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > age of Enlightenment in 1807 answered: "I could more easily believe
                    that
                    > > two
                    > > > Yankee professors would lie than that stones would fall down from
                    > heaven."
                    > > >
                    > > > Some people are so prejudiced that the only cure is for their brains
                    to
                    > > fall
                    > > > out.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Roger
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "David Ocame" <docame@...>
                    > > > To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:18 PM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hmmm...somebody needs to take a bunch of classes in
                    > > > > how to write proper sentences and paragraphs. All I
                    > > > > can make out is thisDr. McDonald committed suicide and
                    > > > > the author of this email blames Phil Klass for it. The
                    > > > > rest is mostly ramblings and convolutions that make no
                    > > > > sense whether you read it forwards or in reverse!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And just how is Phil Klass to blame for McDonald's
                    > > > > death? Was he even there at the time? Or, are you
                    > > > > saying that Phil's criticism pushed McDonald to take
                    > > > > his own life. Oh well! Too bad if McDonald couldn't
                    > > > > take it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There seems to be a lack of understanding in how
                    > > > > science works. Here. let me show you.
                    > > > > You make a statement, or a claim. You back it up with
                    > > > > whatever evidence you have. Then you publish it. At
                    > > > > that point, your statement or claim is subject to
                    > > > > intense scrutiny and criticism. That how science
                    > > > > proceeds and how it progresses. That's how scientist
                    > > > > separate the good science from the bad.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So far, all that's been seen from the UFO community is
                    > > > > bad science...and writing. If you can call it science,
                    > > > > or writing. You want people to start listening? Start
                    > > > > doing good science and CLEAR writing. That is the only
                    > > > > way you will ever have credibility and acceptance.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Stop bellyaching, and get to work.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dave Ocame
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- Alfred Lehmberg <alienview@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > Dr. James E. McDonald & The ETH -- A Review of Wendy
                    > > > > Connors' Sixth
                    > > > > Compilation of Ufological Aural History
                    > > > > by Alfred Lehmberg
                    > > > > www.AlienView.net
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Wendy Connors _is_ a wonderland. She _continues_ to
                    > > > > produce the quality
                    > > > > ufological goods at her usual prodigious, if
                    > > > > worryingly race-running pace.
                    > > > > Additionally, if beside the point (...which is the
                    > > > > truly monumental
                    > > > > ufological contribution of Dr. James E. McDonald, plus
                    > > > > some cogent but
                    > > > > alternant thinking on the Extraterrestrial
                    > > > > Hypothesis...), she puts in
                    > > > > _this_ iteration of her foundational ufological
                    > > > > history series a high
                    > > > > ornament on the tree symbolizing her ever expanding
                    > > > > contribution to it! She
                    > > > > illustrates (by accident or design), in an unspoken
                    > > > > sidebar, every reason
                    > > > > one needs to have... for detesting the scurrilous
                    > > > > activities of Philip J.
                    > > > > Klass (et al), arch skeptibunky, uber-menchen CSICOP
                    > > > > storm-trooper, and
                    > > > > specious agenda grinder. Hyperbole and histrionics?
                    > > > > In my opinion,
                    > > > > decidedly, no.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Philip Klass, by way of quick explanation, and
                    > > > > forgetting that he is at the
                    > > > > tap-root of every less-than-constructive attitude our
                    > > > > hijacked mainstream
                    > > > > communicates with regard to UFOs... was socially
                    > > > > instrumental to, and so
                    > > > > holds, in my too humble opinion, _some_
                    > > > > responsibility... for the tragic
                    > > > > suicide (..._if_ that's what it was...!) of the this
                    > > > > review's hinge pin,
                    > > > > nascent ufologist Dr. James E. McDonald.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think it can be argued, reader, that there is
                    > > > > metaphoric blood on Mr.
                    > > > > Klass' hands. Among portentously outrageous others,
                    > > > > Klass' obtuse
                    > > > > blindsiding, completely immaterial, totally baseless,
                    > > > > absolutely fraudulent,
                    > > > > and patently disingenuous attacks on the competence,
                    > > > > character,
                    > > > > intelligence, and integrity of Dr. McDonald are well
                    > > > > known and require no
                    > > > > citation.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > James McDonald, indeed, was an early victim of a
                    > > > > conjectured "Mothman
                    > > > > Futility Mechanism." The sufferer of this mechanism
                    > > > > is a rational person
                    > > > > who encounters an aspect of the 'highly strange', and,
                    > > > > in a passionate
                    > > > > investigation of that very real strangeness, ends up
                    > > > > paying an awful 'price'
                    > > > > for the pursuit of that enigma's challenge... as it's
                    > > > > demanded by the
                    > > > > 'enforcement arm' (Klass et al) of the jealous
                    > > > > non-elected... "them," to put
                    > > > > a point on it. ...And please ask me who "they" are...
                    > > > > please. Please.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This story transcends mere tragedy, good reader.
                    > > > > McDonald lost a
                    > > > > shining-star career, followed by his family (A wife
                    > > > > and six kids), and then
                    > > > > finally his life... when he walked out into a lonely
                    > > > > desert, hounded by the
                    > > > > capering trolls and ardent apologists of a
                    > > > > disingenuous and corrupted
                    > > > > mainstream (Klass, et al)... and fired a 38 caliber
                    > > > > bullet into his brain.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To his credit, the memory of Dr. McDonald is lauded by
                    > > > > ALL the quality
                    > > > > ufological proponents, and studiously ignored, unless
                    > > > > pressed, by the
                    > > > > opponents of same. To the discomfiting chagrin of the
                    > > > > latter, Dr. McDonald
                    > > > > actually _was_ what most mainstream scientists and
                    > > > > researchers only pretend
                    > > > > to be: data driven explorers of the brave unknown and
                    > > > > courageous surveyors
                    > > > > of our inevitable and fast approaching future ...
                    > > > > incisive scouts and
                    > > > > intrepid pioneers on a four-fold path of experience,
                    > > > > knowledge, wisdom, and
                    > > > > enlightenment!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > A result of Wendy Connors' tireless diligence, Dr.
                    > > > > McDonald provides the
                    > > > > listener another "real deal": a _private_ audience
                    > > > > where he lays out, in a
                    > > > > cogent, practical, and compelling manner, [One]: the
                    > > > > case for UFOs and the
                    > > > > extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH)... [Two]: the abject
                    > > > > failure of Science,
                    > > > > Agency, Institution or Government (SAIG) to address
                    > > > > UFOs in a _remotely_
                    > > > > intelligent manner... and [Three]: the incompetent,
                    > > > > biased, and sullenly
                    > > > > canted 'official' investigations of UFOs _extant_...
                    > > > > and referenced today...
                    > > > > inexplicably, still! One begins to sense the awful
                    > > > > magnitude of the
                    > > > > terrible forces (SAIG!) that would be arrayed unjustly
                    > > > > against our intrepid
                    > > > > Doctor...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Just so we'll understand who we're dealing with here,
                    > > > > James Edward McDonald
                    > > > > held a respected Doctorate in physics from Iowa State
                    > > > > University in the
                    > > > > early fifties. He had worked there, briefly, as an
                    > > > > assistant professor in
                    > > > > meteorology. Additionally, he was a research
                    > > > > physicist in the University of
                    > > > > Chicago's department of meteorology. A member of the
                    > > > > University of Arizona
                    > > > > faculty, he was first an associate professor, then a
                    > > > > _full_ professor in the
                    > > > > real-world department of meteorology. Full
                    > > > > professorships in moneyed
                    > > > > academic departments from world-class Universities are
                    > > > > not handed out like
                    > > > > happy meals.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > McDonald was also a senior physicist in the
                    > > > > University's Institute of
                    > > > > Atmospheric Physics, served as both associate director
                    > > > > and scientific
                    > > > > director... where he was a preferred advisor to
                    > > > > numerous federal agencies,
                    > > > > including the National Science Foundation, the Office
                    > > > > of Naval Research, the
                    > > > > National Academy of Sciences, and the Environmental
                    > > > > Science Service
                    > > > > Administration. If he'd been for sale to a foreign
                    > > > > government, the price tag
                    > > > > would have been in the high nine figures. This
                    > > > > individual was a world-class
                    > > > > act of trained intelligence, a top drawer scientist, a
                    > > > > hard-nosed
                    > > > > researcher, and was "afraid of nothing," ... he'd
                    > > > > also, along with his wife,
                    > > > > seen a UFO!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's no stretch he was the Klansman skeptibunky's
                    > > > > worst nightmare. He was a
                    > > > > brave and talented intellectual, 'a man of, zeotropic,
                    > > > > color' with age,
                    > > > > experience, and reputation. He could say, and very
                    > > > > well, exactly what he
                    > > > > meant! ...And... he held the "ace river card", good
                    > > > > reader... he wore an
                    > > > > academic 'badge'!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It's no wonder that he would have to be destroyed.
                    > > > > ...And he was. Verily.
                    > > > > Thank _you_, Mr. Klass (...et al living and dead...).
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Again -- Dr. McDonald was an articulate, engaging, and
                    > > > > compelling speaker
                    > > > > with a fine sense of humor as reported by seminal
                    > > > > ufologist Richard Hall,
                    > > > > and, as the listener will discover, constructively
                    > > > > humorous. He was even
                    > > > > able to make his audience _laugh_ at his opposition
                    > > > > (likely his most
                    > > > > unforgivable 'sin', on reflection, against his
                    > > > > back-shooting, corner-sniping
                    > > > > and tres-cowardly opponents) as he exemplifies, even
                    > > > > today, the totality of
                    > > > > their collective failure to pursue _real_ science with
                    > > > > reasonable examples,
                    > > > > faultless logic, and illustrative parables... or
                    > > > > pertinent conjectures based
                    > > > > on facts and truly scientific thinking... like Dr.
                    > > > > McDonald was legend to be
                    > > > > able to do... Listeners of Connors' compilation are
                    > > > > enabled to hear that for
                    > > > > themselves...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > McDonald produced no books on the subject of UFOs,
                    > > > > unfortunately, but did
                    > > > > produce several short pieces on his series of lectures
                    > > > > and presentations
                    > > > > made to learned colleagues and other professional
                    > > > > persons. These talks
                    > > > > included explications on:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 1. Our Science in Default ... a paper detailing 22
                    > > > > Years of Inadequate UFO
                    > > > > Investigations
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 2. The "Problem" of Unidentified Flying Objects ...
                    > > > > thoughts on perceiving a
                    > > > > cover-up.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 3. Meteorological Factors in Unidentified Radar
                    > > > > Returns
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 4. UFOs And The Condon Report ... A Scientist's
                    > > > > Critique on Condon's
                    > > > > validity and procedure.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 5. Statement on UFOs ... Hearings Before The Committee
                    > > > > on Science.
                    > > > > Debunking the debunkers.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This is a hint of what the listener is treated to...
                    > > > > sober and intelligent
                    > > > > reflections on the reality of UFOs. No hyperbole or
                    > > > > histrionics... just
                    > > > > straight science as pure as the garden variety
                    > > > > skeptibunky (Klass et al)
                    > > > > would _purport_ to want to have it!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Verily! Weigh Dr. McDonald's concise speech of even
                    > > > > _yesterday_ against the
                    > > > > state of the art skeptibunker's duplicitous pule of
                    > > > > today, and be not too
                    > > > > surprised with regard to who arrives the proverbial
                    > > > > day-late-and-dollar-short! All the senseless
                    > > > > faux-skepticisms still trotted
                    > > > > out currently with insentient and numbing regularity
                    > > > > were asked and
                    > > > > answered, proffered and discredited... suggested and
                    > > > > invalidated decades ago
                    > > > > by James E. McDonald! Wendy Connors, indeed, provides
                    > > > > you with a primary
                    > > > > reference proof you can hold in your hands! UFOs
                    > > > > _are_ real!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...That's not _all_ that will be found on Wendy's
                    > > > > current compilation!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...There's Edward R. Murrow, one of the last few media
                    > > > > journalists who had
                    > > > > respect for the sensibilities of news consumers and
                    > > > > who believed that an
                    > > > > _informed_ public was the one best served. Not
                    > > > > resorting to cheap-shots,
                    > > > > easy sensationalism or degrading comedy, he puts the
                    > > > > subject of UFOs
                    > > > > squarely in the street during an incisive thirty
                    > > > > minute radio program... as
                    > > > > valid today as it was in 1950!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...There's Air Chief Marshall, Lord Hugh Dowding, dead
                    > > > > in 1970, a British
                    > > > > Royal Air Force Chief of Staff, who relates his belief
                    > > > > in the ETH (a belief
                    > > > > maintained until the end of his life) on August 9,
                    > > > > 1954.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...There's a copy of "Open Mind Debate" _ A public
                    > > > > affairs program from 1960
                    > > > > where Professor Eric F. Goldman of Princeton
                    > > > > University moderates an
                    > > > > _astonishing_ program on the subject of UFOs. The
                    > > > > subject, "Are Flying
                    > > > > Saucers Only Science Fiction"?... is debated by
                    > > > > guests: Dr. J. Allen Hynek,
                    > > > > Dr. Donald H. Menzel, Dr. Ronald Leonard Sprinkle, Dr.
                    > > > > Frank Saltzburg and
                    > > > > researcher John G. Fuller. Be amazed how cagey,
                    > > > > obfuscating, evasive, and
                    > > > > _guarded_ Dr. Menzel can be... and wonder why.
                    > > > > Reflect on why he would be
                    > > > > the _only_ panel member to get angry... Do scientists
                    > > > > _really_ do as they
                    > > > > want?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That's not all! General Douglas MacArthur holds forth
                    > > > > on UFOs and
                    > > > > extraterrestrials! Dr. Adolph G. Dittmar explicates
                    > > > > on them! Dr. Ivan T.
                    > > > > Sanderson lectures about them! Robert Coe Gardner
                    > > > > cogitates in their
                    > > > > regard... out loud! Dr. Willy Ley compellingly
                    > > > > expounds! Wow!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That's, still, not all! Twelve hours less change,
                    > > > > total time, awaits the
                    > > > > open mind and courageous heart of a curious listener.
                    > > > > ...And _be_
                    > > > > curious... good reader!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Curious, you increase our aggregate bravery to
                    > > > > challenge the unknown; by
                    > > > > becoming more brave; you expand and elevate our
                    > > > > society; you help to re-take
                    > > > > our hijacked mainstream! Additionally, you invalidate
                    > > > > the specious
                    > > > > pronouncements of Philip Klass (et al) and his
                    > > > > capering coterie of cultish
                    > > > > apologists, men who have always resorted to character
                    > > > > assassination,
                    > > > > baseless innuendo, and duplicitous mechanism... when
                    > > > > they can't debate their
                    > > > > worthy opponents competently on the issue at hand and
                    > > > > are keen, only, upon
                    > > > > grinding their own duplicitous axes...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ...And who can blame them... standing tall only
                    > > > > insures their demise... real
                    > > > > debate hastens their destruction... real dialogue only
                    > > > > provides for the
                    > > > > righteous invalidations they have earned! But, then, I
                    > > > > don't _care_ what
                    > > > > their reasons are for their obfuscation! They are not
                    > > > > shared with _me_, and
                    > > > > so are then unacceptable, on spec!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That these threadbare and disingenuous pelicanists
                    > > > > stand in the way of human
                    > > > > progression with their senseless and obstinate
                    > > > > obliviousness, that they
                    > > > > ignore recorded history, or that they connive to
                    > > > > despoil, degrade, and
                    > > > > destroy their betters... are reasons enough to
                    > > > > discredit them -- provide for
                    > > > > _their_ professional demise... dismiss _their_ legacy,
                    > > > > such as it is! Yea
                    > > > > and Verily!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Wendy Connors provides, in my opinion, ample
                    > > > > historical evidence for the
                    > > > > validity of all the preceding contentions in her
                    > > > > latest compilation, "James
                    > > > > E. McDonald & The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis." The
                    > > > > listener should not be
                    > > > > disappointed...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > More info and purchase information can be found
                    > > > > contacting Wendy Connors at:
                    > > > > wendy@... ... Read on!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > alienview@...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > www.AlienView.net
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list
                    > > > > dedicated to:
                    > > > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the
                    > > > > Paranormal.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                    > > > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted
                    > > > > to this list require
                    > > > > further investigation.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ufonet/
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    > > > > Terms of Service.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > =====
                    > > > > ***********************************
                    > > > > ***********************************
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dave Ocame, N1YVV
                    > > > >
                    > > > > East Shore Park Observatory
                    > > > > FN31ng
                    > > > > -72.53856 longitude
                    > > > > 41.16797 latitude
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
                    > > > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                    > > > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
                    > > > require
                    > > > > further investigation.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
                    > > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
                    > > >
                    > > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                    > > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                    > > >
                    > > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
                    > > require
                    > > > further investigation.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > UFOnet is an international news and discussion list dedicated to:
                    > > UFOs, UAP, Anomalous Phenomena in general and the Paranormal.
                    > >
                    > > To subscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > ufonet-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail message to:
                    > > ufonet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Website (Dutch only): http://www.ufonet.nl/
                    > > Messages to the list-owner: ufonet-admin@...
                    > >
                    > > Caution, many reports of unidentified phenomena posted to this list
                    > require
                    > > further investigation.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.