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Fw: [UFOnet] Digest Number 1904

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  • visions
    Oh well, if you insist on this dialogue remaining public, thank you for keeping it short. Alfred wrote Oh, and as to being made ill with ~my~ behavior? Dave
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 4, 2004
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      Oh well, if you insist on this dialogue remaining public, thank you for keeping it short.
      Alfred wrote "Oh, and as to being made ill with ~my~ behavior?
      Dave replies: "You misread my remark Alfred. I wrote: "Being a passionate opponent about anything
      merely makes me ill!" I didn't say your behaviour made me ill.
      As for John Ford I can only reiterate that it was not relevant to the discussion on the Mortellaro case.
      My compassion or otherwise for John is also irrelevant in this context.
      Sorry Alfred but this conversation is boring me - others too I suspect..
      And it's nearly 1am in the UK - time for my beauty sleep.
      Dreams of compassion to all injured and 'injurers'
      Dave


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Alfred Lehmberg
      To: AlienViewGroup@yahoogroups.com ; ufonet@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:30 AM
      Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Digest Number 1904




      Really Dave... you distend credulity. I'm flummoxed, flamboozled, and absolutely frittered with your seemingly insentient response. Where is the compassion for the *injured* that you trot out so readily for the *injurer*? As to moving this to private E-mail -- no. Doctor Mortellaro was very keen on making this a public issue with his rampant self-promotion, and what's gravy for the goose is also gravy for the road-kill.

      Lastly, your sentiment regarding John Ford, an innocent man institutionalized to facilitate a corrupt political machine, was not lost on me. Where is your compassion for him? My "campaign" indeed... your consistency seems more than a touch awry.

      Oh, and as to being made ill with ~my~ behavior? Maybe you should double up your air-sickness bag. I think it's going to be a decidedly bumpy flight. Thanks.

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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: visions
      To: ufonet@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Alien Views
      Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 3:29 PM
      Subject: [AlienViewGroup] Re: [UFOnet] Digest Number 1904


      My comments Alfred between yours below....
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Alfred Lehmberg
      To: AlienViewGroup@yahoogroups.com ; ufonet@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 4:07 PM
      Subject: Re: [UFOnet] Digest Number 1904



      > Message: 6
      > Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:36:39 +0100
      > From: "visions" <visions@...>
      > Subject: Mortellaro, Hopkins and Lehmberg - what's really going on?
      >
      > I am posting below Alfred Lehmberg's statement on the Jim Mortellaro
      > abduction case on the freely accessible Updates forum.
      > In my opinion it is almost completely personality clash stuff.

      That's fair Dave. I know exactly how you feel, I understand the provenance
      of your feelings, and I appreciate your integrity in the move *against the
      flow* to defend what I fear will prove ultimately indefensible. I remind
      you that, this time last year (?), I felt exactly as ~you~ now feel... and
      did the exact same things... many of us ~have~. Like many before you, I
      fear regret and disappointment bears down on you like a freight train, Dave.

      D I think we view this whole thing quite differently Alfred. If this freight train arrives, there will be no disappointment because I have no great investment in wanting the story to be true. It's just that up to now I've thought there was enough evidence to prove it was. I do have frustration about a case so full of 'facts' turning into a hoax with so few.
      From a ufological point of view I might slightly regret if a so called watertight case became full of holes but on the other hand, I find hoaxes quite fascinating in many ways .The Adamski affair is a case in point. I met him too - a very plausible fellow.
      I would feel sorry though for people who would feel upset about being let down, feel sorry even for you Alfred :-) if it turns out you have been led a merry dance all for nought. But most of all I would feel sorry for Jim.
      For if he did set out on a path to deceive people into thinking he had been abducted knowing that eventually his story of medical experts backing him would expose him, the act would be so illogical that one must assume he was very sick and deserving of my sympathy.
      There again, if the abductions were real - and Budd doesn't dispute that they could be - and Jim was responsible for forged documents, that would still make him a person deserving of my sympathy, akin to capable mediums who, desperate to gain acceptance, indulge in a touch of trickery. Pretty sad really.
      To be pedantic or put a Sherlock Holmsian slant on it, we hear from Budd that the documents were false but even he isn't saying that it was Jim who falsified them.


      > It's no surprise to me that Jim did some bizarre things - he's that kind
      of guy.

      Which leaves all sorts of room for exploration that you blithely close the
      door on Dave... why is that? Could it be, 'twixt you and me, that "clash"
      you'd have 'twixt "Jim" and me?

      D Exploration? I'm sorry I don't understand your point Alfred. I see no
      point in discussing what went on between he and thee unless it is
      directly relevant to the case in hand.

      > Maybe if he'd written as much about Alfred,
      > we might have seen a similar character slur too. I do not know.

      "Slurs" notwithstanding, I'd welcome the debate, Dave, forgetting that the
      more you insist on fanning this flame the more that *character* under
      discussion is going to be exposed.

      D I had happily withdrawn from the issue Alfred awaiting new facts to emerge when you
      did the fanning by posting a new lengthy statement on Updates. I merely replied here on UFOnet.
      I didn't reply to Updates because my posts rarely see the light of day there. I also didn't post to AV because we'd already had this discussion there and I imagine punters have had enough of it.
      I'm posting this there now because you have placed this discussion again on AV.


      I submit that the good Doctor
      (...forgetting ufology and abduction research...) is ill served by your
      innocent defense of him, and further submit that the Doctor can't write
      anything about me that he didn't make up out of whole cloth. Moreover, I
      told the Doctor before I jumped off his ufological cliff with him in 2002
      that if he was playing me false in any way that he would regret it. He knew
      full well, from the outset that I could be, at least, as passionate an
      opponent as I was an ally. This is a bed he made all on his own. He
      shouldn't be over-surprised at being expected to sleep in it.

      D Forgive me Alfred but I'm not into this opponent or ally way of life.
      There are many reasons why we all do what we do. If somebody upsets me
      I do my best to get over it and let it go. Admittedly you have invested more
      in this than I have - I'm merely an observer, you were a participant in the affair.
      So I'm not judging how you should behave. Being a passionate opponent about anything
      merely makes me ill! That's why I don't see you as an opponent - merely a
      person with a different point of view to mine.

      > What is more important than what did or did not go on between these two,
      is the UFO abduction case and whether it is fact or fiction.

      Agreed -- a fact that should not get lost in this alleged clash of
      personalities given that (all?) the documentation provided in this
      fact/fiction mix seems to be fraudulent, and that the most respected
      abduction researcher in the field (arguably) has walked away from him in
      abject disgust...

      D All is rightly queried because we don't know if there is other documentation which is not labelled false.


      > Personally, I still haven't seen enough evidence for burying the whole
      saga as a hoax with Jim the trickster -
      > at least without knowing a lot more about what really DID or DID NOT
      happen.

      Fair enough... and as soon as you get the more positive "bird's-eye,
      low-down on this caper," that persons close to the scene (...a lot closer
      than you, Dave...) are reporting on, I hope you do me the courtesy of
      letting me know. As you (...and the Doctor!) must know, I'll be the ~first~
      to mea culpa! Verily!

      D As I said before, the facts are really all that matter. Whatever the 'bird's eye lowdown' reveals will probably be heard first by you because I'm sure you're one of those who are closer to the scene than I.

      > I would suggest that UFO research generally also needs to know every
      detail so that if mistakes have been made, we can learn how not to repeat
      them.

      Which sounds good as a closing impact statement, but is ultimately as
      nebulous and empty as continuing this impassioned but uninformed defense of
      the good Doctor's dodgy, unsupported, and seemingly contrived, now, claims.

      D As nebulous and empty as any defence that anybody is innocent until proved guilty.


      You're a good man, Dave, with all the integrity and compassion that you only
      ~think~ you detect elsewhere. You are ~me~, Dave, 365 days ago, and I can't
      work up even the slightest irritation with you, given that. I forgive you
      your thin insults and veiled challenges because you're that good man I
      alluded to earlier. You're a ~good~ man, Dave; you'll come around. And I
      won't say I told you so. I was told, and it made no difference to me. Why
      should ~you~ be any different?

      D Thank you Alfred for the compliments. I am pleased you can't work up the slightest irritation with me. I will really have to try harder!! :-) Perhaps I could wear a I Love Jim Mortellaro T shirt to your birthday party? :-)
      Of course I could opine that a thin insult is when somebody forgives you for thin insults and veiled challenges you are unware of! Certainly I have no problems with anybody who puts faith in others even if that faith is subsequently proved to be misplaced. I think the difference between you and me Alfred is that if Jim is ultimately proved to be a fraud, I will still call him a friend.

      One question, though... why did you snip the "John Ford" request for
      donation from your post? You left in ~everything~ else...

      D No hidden agenda Alfred. It was your campaign not mine and it wasn't directly relevant to the discussion.

      "JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
      He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
      one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
      he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
      $450.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!"

      What did John Ford ever do to you?

      D Not one thing Alfred. A worthy cause I'm sure. One request - in the absence of further solid facts in this case could we take a breather on this matter? Or continue if you insist, offlist.
      Thanks
      Dave Haith

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