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Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

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  • Joe McGonagle
    Just a quick note in case anyone has the impression that I am veering off-topic in an attempt to bash Stan, I think I should clarify my reasoning for
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 28, 2002
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      Just a quick note in case anyone has the impression that I am
      veering off-topic in an attempt to "bash" Stan, I think I should
      clarify my reasoning for challenging his post.

      Please note that this post may be negated by any response from
      Stan that is already in the pipeline, due to the inherrent (and
      justified) delays in the moderation of the list.

      A major postulation involved in this thread is that UFOlogy as a
      subject area has little or no credibility in the general
      scientific community.

      I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
      scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved (even
      amongst "serious" researchers, including Stan) to set out to
      prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet in our
      universe.

      It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be to
      prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet, but to
      attempt to identify what UFO's are.

      Cheers, Joe
    • youfoh
      ... I m with Joe on this one. It must be determined first what constitutes a UFO. Only then could one determine, perhaps obviously, what it s purpose is.
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 28, 2002
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        --- In ufonet@y..., "Joe McGonagle" <joe@m...> wrote:
        >
        > It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be to
        > prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet, but to
        > attempt to identify what UFO's are.

        I'm with Joe on this one. It must be determined first what
        constitutes a UFO. Only then could one determine, perhaps obviously,
        what it's purpose is. Without such a bearing, it's only presumptuous
        to label it an alien spacecraft or mezmerizing dodad.
      • Roger Anderton
        Hi Joe, ... Yes, but: (1) Mainstream science has ignored the subject of UFOs. The subject was supposed to have been solved in Condon report etc. (A few
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 1, 2002
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          Hi Joe,

          > It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be to
          > prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet, but to
          > attempt to identify what UFO's are.


          Yes, but:

          (1) Mainstream science has ignored the subject of UFOs. The subject was
          supposed to have been solved in Condon report etc. (A few scientists like
          Hynek disagreed.)

          That left the field open to independent researchers- amateurs, lone
          scientists etc., and all those people have now had a very long time to reach
          their own conclusions to the answer. These people think that the answer is
          now obvious.

          From that perspective the solution is just a matter of convincing everyone
          else.

          There is too much History of their investigations, to be able to easily
          start afresh. And to start afresh, ignoring their work, is showing no
          respect to them, for many of them have applied the scientific method.

          (2) There are many other 'buts'. .......


          Which probably add up to being that its too late to do as you say. It should
          have been done that way in the first instance, but now we have things like
          Roswell: where we know that something was defintely covered up, whether it
          was weather balloon, aliens or something else. From that perspective, 'we'
          merely want the authorities to tell the truth and convince us. The scientifc
          method does not seem able to cope with the scenario that has been
          concluded. Starting again, merely seems another cover up.




          -Roger





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Joe McGonagle" <joe@...>
          To: <ufoupdates@...>; <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 12:12 AM
          Subject: [UFOnet] Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


          > Just a quick note in case anyone has the impression that I am
          > veering off-topic in an attempt to "bash" Stan, I think I should
          > clarify my reasoning for challenging his post.
          >
          > Please note that this post may be negated by any response from
          > Stan that is already in the pipeline, due to the inherrent (and
          > justified) delays in the moderation of the list.
          >
          > A major postulation involved in this thread is that UFOlogy as a
          > subject area has little or no credibility in the general
          > scientific community.
          >
          > I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
          > scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved (even
          > amongst "serious" researchers, including Stan) to set out to
          > prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet in our
          > universe.
          >
          > It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be to
          > prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet, but to
          > attempt to identify what UFO's are.
          >
          > Cheers, Joe
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • major_crisis
          ... was ... scientists like ... to reach ... answer is ... everyone ... easily ... no ... method. ... Those that have applied the scientific method should then
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 2, 2002
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            --- In ufonet@y..., "Roger Anderton" <R.J.Anderton@b...> wrote:
            > Hi Joe,
            >
            > > It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be to
            > > prove that UFO's are spaceships from another planet, but to
            > > attempt to identify what UFO's are.
            >
            >
            > Yes, but:
            >
            > (1) Mainstream science has ignored the subject of UFOs. The subject
            was
            > supposed to have been solved in Condon report etc. (A few
            scientists like
            > Hynek disagreed.)
            >
            > That left the field open to independent researchers- amateurs, lone
            > scientists etc., and all those people have now had a very long time
            to reach
            > their own conclusions to the answer. These people think that the
            answer is
            > now obvious.
            >
            > From that perspective the solution is just a matter of convincing
            everyone
            > else.
            >
            > There is too much History of their investigations, to be able to
            easily
            > start afresh. And to start afresh, ignoring their work, is showing
            no
            > respect to them, for many of them have applied the scientific
            method.
            >

            Those that have applied the scientific method should then submit
            papers for peer (scientific) review. If no scientists can pick holes
            in their work, then it will stand.

            Aside from those using strict scientific disciplines, many ufologists
            have as you say done an excellent job, and their work could be used
            as a basis for further scientific work.
            Unfortunately, the majority of ufo researchers have not documented
            all aspects of their work, starting with the source of their data,
            the rationale used to come to certain conclusions, etc, rendering
            their work worthless to anyone trying to follow it up.

            > (2) There are many other 'buts'. .......
            >
            >
            > Which probably add up to being that its too late to do as you say.
            It should
            > have been done that way in the first instance, but now we have
            things like
            > Roswell: where we know that something was defintely covered up,
            whether it
            > was weather balloon, aliens or something else. From that
            perspective, 'we'
            > merely want the authorities to tell the truth and convince us. The
            scientifc
            > method does not seem able to cope with the scenario that has been
            > concluded. Starting again, merely seems another cover up.
            >
            >

            No, I disagree. The difficulty would be establishing what data can be
            used scientifically. Much of it is dated, and relies heavily on
            witness testimony. Some of those witnesses will now be dead, others
            will have the added difficulty of remembering events from a long time
            ago without adding to or detracting from those memories.

            Radar tapes have been destroyed, or decomposed, so have film
            negatives. Contemporary records have been lost or destroyed.

            It is never too late to start applying the scientific method. It may
            take 50 years to build up sufficient acceptable data on which to base
            testable hypotheses, but the longer the start is delayed, ultimately
            the longer it will take to make any progress.

            Before any of this can take place, people involved in investigation
            of UFO's need to be trained (not as scientists, but how to collect
            and document information in a way that will be acceptable to science).

            Cheers, Joe
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