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Re: [ufodiscussion] The Pandora Box of Concern

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  • Keith McLean
    Hi Os, No problem. :) Lately I ve been getting slower and slower in my responses to email, what with the surge in material to this list ( :) :-/) and (somewhat
    Message 1 of 102 , Sep 1, 2004
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      Hi Os,

      No problem. :)

      Lately I've been getting slower and slower in my
      responses to email, what with the surge in material to
      this list ( :) :-/) and (somewhat like Regan) I face a
      time delay due to being in a faraway country to the US
      (at mininmum about 15 hrs time difference between
      Australia and the US!!).

      I'm of a spiritual orientation too, and I value the
      role Of Jessus Christ in history and moral/spiritual
      consciousness. Isn't it interesting that many can't
      seem to seperate the figure of Jesus Christ from the
      structures and doctrines of the church and
      Christainity? They blame Christ for the deeds of
      ignorant or uninformed people, when this figure was
      not trying to create a religion but a consciousness
      change in humanity.

      The role of drugs in our lives is too pervasive, and
      the dark activities you describe seem driven by it's
      availability - the ability to control others with
      technology. And more generally, poeple are too reliant
      on medicines to "fix" their problems - suppress it and
      it will "go away".

      Anyway, thanks very much for your comments - much
      appreciated. :)


      Thanks,

      Keith

      --- Os Wilkes <oswilkes@...> wrote:
      > >Hi Os,
      >
      > Hi Keith!!! :D
      >
      > Geeze, I am sorry this took me so long to respond
      > to!!! You know what I
      > did??? I put this in a special folder which I just
      > made for things I
      > want to be sure to pay attention to!!! And then I
      > forgot to look in that
      > folder when I visited the list mail!!! LOLOL I
      > apologize, I sometimes
      > do this. You know, I cannot tell you how many
      > things I have lost because
      > I put them in "a safe place".
      >
      > Doh!!!
      > >
      > >Thanks for your decisive comments and friendly
      > manner.
      > >:)
      >
      > What a nice thing to say about an opinionated cranky
      > old curmudgeon!! :D
      > Thank you!
      > >
      > >I've been reading all your exchanges, and it seems
      > to
      > >me that you have a sense of things from a crucial
      > >practical perspective.
      >
      > !!! Thank you again !!! :D I never expect to hear
      > my rants
      > characterized like this. ;)
      > >
      > >I'm not sure how many rival speakers/investigators
      > >could withstand the mud wrestling test. ;)
      >
      > Well, maybe we can omit the wrestling part and just
      > throw people in the
      > mud. Phil Klass would be a good start, he's flung
      > enough in his day to
      > warrant a little instant karma. He would probably
      > look a lot better
      > covered in mud too. He's pretty scary looking. I
      > can see him in a Nazi
      > uniform with a riding crop or swagger stick, talking
      > about whether or not
      > to gas the pretty ladies, but then gassing them
      > anyway. LOL
      > >
      > >Ever since hearing about alien abductions I have
      > found
      > >them to be unpleasant. Like you argued, an
      > abduction
      > >is an abduction, and no amount of apologetics will
      > >change the definition of this concept. It might
      > then
      > >be a mistake to assume a metaphysical explanation
      > or
      > >justification for abduction given contact
      > experiences
      > >are expressed in this questionable and unethical
      > >behaviour.
      >
      > You know, the abductees themselves go back and forth
      > on this concept
      > themselves. The ones who admit abductions are
      > criminal often believe
      > later that enduring these events is a test of their
      > spirit. Kind of in
      > the same way people say suffering builds character
      > or Jesus dying for our
      > sins. Some might come to believe that they have a
      > karmic debt and that
      > is why these crimes are directed against them. I
      > know of one abductee
      > who was told before having his genitals electrocuted
      > (or whatever they
      > do), that they were putting him through a primal
      > pain release procedure
      > to purify his soul for events which were to come.
      >
      > In the close view, these are crimes. In the realm
      > of the spirit, where
      > some of us believe we choose our paths before
      > incarnating, these may
      > indeed be tests and hurdles a soul needs to sort
      > through. I am not
      > qualified to address the latter. I can only report
      > the various
      > testimonials I have heard.
      >
      > When I hear things attributed to aliens like, "The
      > Indian population is
      > bovine in nature, and they are to be seen living
      > quietly and eating a
      > mostly vegetarian diet, without much achievement and
      > without much
      > ambition, like cattle" I tend to wonder about their
      > actual spiritual
      > orientation.
      >
      > When I hear things like, "I was forced against my
      > will to copulate with
      > an alien human hybrid because I was ovulating at the
      > time" and the
      > abductee presents the physical signs of human rape
      > and shows ligature
      > marks on her wrists and ankles which would
      > correspond nicely to rope
      > burns, I have to wonder about who the aliens really
      > are in addition to
      > their spiritual orientation.
      >
      > And also wonder how nonsense of this stripe furthers
      > anyones spiritual
      > growth whatsoever.
      >
      > By the way, the abductee with the rope burns asked
      > her neighbours to tell
      > her if they saw anything funny on the night of one
      > of her abductions.
      > The neighbours reported that this abductee was
      > witnessed getting into a
      > dark unmarked van with two men. They saw nothing
      > odd about it because it
      > was a recurring event in her life. She was a
      > reproductive biologist btw.
      > The aliens got her to use her talents in their
      > labs, to create hybrids.
      > I have to wonder why aliens need to have beautiful
      > twenty something
      > women do their gene splicing for them? Surely they
      > have scientists more
      > qualified than young beginners???
      >
      > Ah, that reminds me of the contactee who went to
      > school to become a
      > Pharmacist, because the aliens told him to. When he
      > worked in the
      > Pharmacy, he had many instances of missing time.
      > And missing inventory
      > no doubt.
      >
      > Keith, I really do not want to discount the
      > spiritual value of abductions
      > or that some of them may be helping people
      > spiritually. I do have to
      > question the events I have studied, because for the
      > most part, they
      > include such inconsistencies as the ones I have just
      > relayed.
      >
      > >You have mentioned the creation of
      > >abductees and their abuse - the faking of abductee
      > >experiences by certain "investigators": we would
      > need
      > >to avoid a witchhunt after the alleged suspects,
      > but
      > >surely there must be a way to properly identify and
      > >stop these practises?
      >
      > Unless the victims report, or there is an undercover
      > investigation on
      > their activities, little can be done. This is a
      > criminal activity of
      > broad distribution. It is well known in literature
      > as such tales as
      > "Svengali" and "the Curse of the Jade Scorpion".
      >
      > When the perps pick people like mental patients,
      > they have the upper hand
      > if the abductee comes out of the aether and realizes
      > they have been
      > tampered. For the same reason that rape victims far
      > under report their
      > rapists. But in the case of abductees, they may
      > never come out of the
      > aether. Date rape drugs are used. One of these
      > perps told me he himself
      > used aerosolized Ketamine to disable his victims.
      > These disorient and
      > skew memory, as does hypnosis.
      >
      > They really have the upper hand.
      >
      > I have given this much thought, and I would be the
      > first person to
      > volunteer to go undercover if I thought I had
      > excellent back up by
      > trained and serious law enforcement agents. I have
      > been considering
      > making enquiries. In the meantime, my word alone
      > does not establish
      > proof. I have only seen a few instances of
      > researchers hypnotizing
      > people and those were done in groups. People who
      > create abductees like
      > Boylan, do this in private with no witnesses.
      > >
      >
      === message truncated ===

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    • vgambino1@cox.net
      ... [response part 2] ... me and insist on creating such discord I meant no offense and do not wish to bandy insults with you. Please choose another as I will
      Message 102 of 102 , Sep 6, 2004
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        Vince, I am truly sorry that you see everything I say as telling you that
        you
        are inferior. I am really not. I do not think that my mind is up to par with
        theirs either and I have come a long way since I began. I have been trying
        to figure this stuff out for 32 years and I have figured out some things. If
        I hadn't I'd be pretty slow in that amount of time... I have also made quite
        a few friends in the process. People learn in different ways and I think
        some people need hands on contact to even believe.

        V: I pulled the 4 statements you made from your answer to keith as
        an example of why I made my statements. The first one suggests we
        are not able to make contact as we are inferior or deficient in our
        capacities.

        J:No I said no such thing, You again have taken it personally when I was
        discussing
        mind power of the greys and yes what I have experienced and others until
        they got used to it. Even Burish mentioned something of it which was one
        reason I was reading his stuff as "it" for me pointed to first hand
        experience... In fact it took me some time to deal with it myself. You are
        both speaking as if you have never experienced it to me, am I wrong??? This
        however doesn't mean that you can't or won't, neither does it mean that you
        can't or won't learn telepathic communication.

        V:Your second and third statement combine to say you have
        experienced this and thus have a greater understanding than the
        rest of us who have never been abducted or encountered these
        beings in our lives.

        J: Thus??? So to you, because I have experienced it and you haven't
        I have greater experience... Yes I would say that is generally true...
        However most things in life are up to interpretation and I could just as
        easily interpret them wrong even though I have had more experience than you.
        This is why I usually state "I Think". Am I allowed to think and have an
        opinion
        based on my experiences Vern???

        V:You may be possessed of firsthand knowledge about these beings.
        This does not mean that you know all the truth. You can’t even be
        sure that what you have experienced is not just a construct of your
        own subconscious being manipulated to reinforce a false nature of
        these beings that they wish you to believe.

        J:No, I don't know all the truth Vern. Oh Really? So you are saying
        that I don't know my own mind??? Tell me. is it because I have experienced
        it
        that I don't know my own mind do you think? Want to buy an island???

        V:Still you exhibit this reaction every time you are confronted as do I.
        This could also be a reason for their subterfuge and lack of
        forthright interaction wit us.

        J: Vince you don't know me and you don't know what I can or can't do...
        Please do not
        include me in what you feel you can do... I have on numerous occasions
        overcome the Flight and Fight syndrome... So just because you feel you can't
        doesn't mean others can't learn better...

        V:Jahnets Please understand that all I or anyone else have is their own
        world and reality.
        J: True...
        V:I can not have yours and you can not have mine.I have not lived your
        life and experienced what you have.

        J: Yet you keep trying to tell me what I am capable of based on what you are
        capable of or what others think they are capable of...


        V:I have not lived your life and experienced what you have. I only have my
        own experience. I was not taught by the same teachers as you and the people
        who
        influenced me were mine alone and you can not relate to them in the
        way I do. Our entire lives are individual and distinct to each and every
        one of us.
        J: So are you saying we should stop trying to communicate because you are on
        a different path??? Or is it possible to take the experiences of another and
        learn
        from them??? Doesn't mean you have to agree with them...

        Yes this IS a problem and causes most of the contention you have
        experienced in this group.

        J: This is the cause of most of the dissension in the world, not just my
        life or within this group... Yet you say this as if it's all my problem...

        V:WE are all distinct individuals. We can not live your life and
        understand your world in any other way than as a comparison to our
        own.

        J: Exactly... Like I said you will not believe anyone unless it sounds right
        to
        you regardless of what actually happened, so you need to experience it
        yourself...;-)








        -----Original Message-----
        From: vgambino1@... [mailto:vgambino1@...]
        Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:43 PM
        To: ufodiscussion@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: RE: [ufodiscussion] The Pandora Box of Concern [response
        part 2]


        >
        > From: <vgambino1@...>
        > Date: 2004/09/05 Sun PM 07:28:35 EDT
        > To: <ufodiscussion@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: RE: [ufodiscussion] The Pandora Box of Concern
        [response part 2]
        >
        > Hi Jahnets
        I included the comments made from the previous post so we could
        identify where I found the points I spoke to.

        3. ETs seek to obtain materials and social knowledge
        from the population, but must do this secretly knowing
        these will not be provided willingly with full consent
        by the population.

        V: I think you got this one right keith. they are sampling us and our
        cultural development and using this information to promote their own
        agenda. If we understood nothing else this would be the most telling
        of what their purpose is.

        Has nothing to do with "knowing" they won't provide them normal
        information. I think it has more to do with peoples minds not being
        able to handle the high rise in energy to communicate with them. Just
        as Burish told of the J-Rod grabbing him and forcing a opening in his
        mind for him so he would be able to understand and communicate
        on a better level with them. I guess you have never met up with one
        face to face and experienced this?
        Sorry I have been reading what you guys are posting and to me it
        seems as though some of you haven't had the experience or you
        wouldn't think the way you do.
        You can't come into contact with that higher energy and feel so
        utterly threatened unless your mind hasn't been opened to the
        contact. Then you would experience it like a short circuit of your
        nerves and be fearful of it. This is one reason it is so important to
        meditate, as it helps stregthen the nervous system and gets you
        used to higher energy a little at a time.




        #1. I think it has more to do with peoples minds not being
        able to handle the high rise in energy to communicate with them.

        2. I guess you have never met up with one face to face and
        experienced this?
        3. it seems as though some of you haven't had the experience or you
        wouldn't think the way you do.

        4. This is one reason it is so important to meditate, as it helps
        stregthen the nervous system and gets you used to higher energy a
        little at a time.

        J: No It isn't a veiled attempt to tell you that you are not good
        enough...
        Nor am I a religious zealot, if anything I am more spiritual by nature.
        Vern, I am not as eloquent as others speaking and I am very blunt.
        I tell it the way I see it.I am not trying to convince any of you... This
        is
        simply my opinion based on my experiences with many, and I repeat
        many
        other beings.... I don't give a flying f if you believe me or not, ok...
        You can believe anything you want. The only reason I have been
        discussing this is because Keith seemed interested in what I had
        experienced. Maybe he wanted a good laugh,what ever...
         
        V: I pulled the 4 statements you made from your answer to keith as
        an example of why I made my statements. The first one suggests we
        are not able to make contact as we are inferior or deficient in our
        capacities.
        Your second and third statement combine to say you have
        experienced this and thus have a greater understanding than the
        rest of us who have never been abducted or encountered these
        beings in our lives.
        You may be possessed of firsthand knowledge about these beings.
        This does not mean that you know all the truth. You can’t even be
        sure that what you have experienced is not just a construct of your
        own subconscious being manipulated to reinforce a false nature of
        these beings that they wish you to believe.


        J:Oh really... Only to your world??? This may be a problem...

        Jahnets Please understand that all I or anyone else have is their own
        world and reality.
        I can not have yours and you can not have mine. I have not lived your
        life and experienced what you have. I only have my own experience. I
        was not taught by the same teachers as you and the people who
        influenced me were mine alone and you can not relate to them in the
        way I do. Our entire lives are individual and distinct to each and every
        one of us.
        Yes this IS a problem and causes most of the contention you have
        experienced in this group.
        WE are all distinct individuals. We can not live your life and
        understand your world in any other way than as a comparison to our
        own.

        J:Why don't you try to contact them yourself and have your own
        experience then you can judge for yourself? 
        If you put the thought out there in meditation or go up on the astral
        plane and think it, I'm sure you would get a response...
        I'm not being a smart ass here. I just think that is the only way you
        will believe and understand some of this.


        AS I said in previous comments I have made to this group I have
        attempted this and do believe that my mind is connected to a realm
        where information is being directed to me and experience many
        instances of what appears to me to be psychic manipulation. I can
        not say this is a benefit to me only that it is occurring and I am just
        as influenced in my way as you were.

        J: Vern, I may be wrong but I think what you are experiencing may be your
        inner self.
        This frequently feels like being manipulated by the conscious personality.

        Maybe it is in how you say what you do
        and not what you are attempting to say.
        J:Well now that is possible as the things we are discussing are hard
        to put to words, but I don't think that intelligence has anything to do
        with it.  You could be a genius with a disintegrating nerve system and
        it is my belief that you would still have problems being around them. 
        Just like if you ran a mile without exercising your muscles first you
        would probably gets cramps. Same thing... But this is my opinion
        based on my experiences...

        I agree and do not doubt I would have to exercise my mind and my
        abilities to understand these alien beings. As I have no facility with
        telepathy It might fail altogether. If that is the only way they can
        communicate it may be impossible to form a conversation and create
        true understanding in myself.

        J:Or maybe you are being paranoid and fearful solely because they
        are different than us??? Or you are being manipulated by the people
        here that don't want us to know about them because they are in a
        position of power and if we do learn about them then their power will
        be much less. 


        Yes I am a bit of a paranoid. I have fears and questions that disturb
        me. I am not however xenophobic. I welcome an encounter and
        discussion. That is if it could happen between myself and the aliens in
        a honest and open manner. One that I am not forced to their opinions
        by coercion or deceit. One in which the entire world could share in.
        Not a private conversation where I am abducted and manipulated with
        out my consent.
        As I have only the reports of abductees to prepare myself I find
        there is cause for fear and the possibility I will be deluded into a
        belief structure that is not of my own making.

        J:I'm glad to hear you say this even if you only believe the ones who
        are freaked out...

        Jahnets I am not sure why you discount these individuals and their
        stories. the evidence is strong enough for me that they did
        experience the horrors they describe. I accept their stories in the
        same way I accept your own. I am not only believing the horror
        stories I also accept the benign ones with just as much conviction.
        You made an assumption here and it was incorrect.

        Many of these are extremely unsettling and even terrifying to those
        that suffered them. The fact that most of the reported abductions
        include assertions of mental manipulation, abuse, and control makes
        me think that these individuals were not seeing what was real only
        what their abductors wanted them to see.
         
        J:Well now that is a curious statement...Why would the aliens want
        them to see that???

        It could be a way to frighten and coerce intransigent people into
        capitulation.


        I'm not sure why so many are saying these things but I do have one
        thought which could be wrong or could be right in some cases. It it
        this. This thought is hard for me to put to words but I will try...
        If you met one after reading all these accounts don't you think it
        would be natural to be scared and not sure of what was going to
        happen??? OK Now, so we have the adrenaline flowing already right...

        You have this right. There is a learned response and the fear of being
        subjected to the things described would teach us to be cautious and
        fearful in a similar situation.

        I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned to you about the astral
        plane and that there your thoughts become real. So you think
        something and it happens, much like that lucid dream I had about
        Osiris.
        Where I wanted to be closer to see and suddenly was floating in front
        of him so I could see...
        OK So what I'm thinking is that when they freak and think these
        things the greys think they want it and project it with their stronger
        emotions and stronger minds and voila you are freaked... Now I may
        be wrong
        but I think I'm close... After all they watch us go to scary movies and
        ferris wheels and watch gory movies and play killing games so some
        of them may think we get a kick out of this...

        It may be a feed back loop but I do not think it is this. I suspect they
        care very little what we think and how we feel. Their actions suggest
        a total lack of compassion and understanding of us. If they are as
        advanced as you suggest in other statements you have made, then I
        think they would have had a greater understanding of this aspect of
        our makeup.
         
        Recently it was expressed to me that the aliens were omniscient and
        all powerful. They knew what everyone on the face of the globe was
        doing and thinking. they could tag you and track you anywhere. and
        knew everything about everything. If this assertion is correct is it
        not possible that they could manipulate awareness and plant images
        and suggestions into their victims? Even if you discount omniscient
        beings and assume beings only marginally advanced from us. It seams
        to me that we must grant that they could deceive us.
         
        J:Yes but why would they want to???

        I have no answer for this but can propose many possibilities. They
        could be only motivated by their own needs and have no true desire
        to help us. They could be motivated by a need to repair the world
        they come from and are only attempting to extend our existence long
        enough to acquire what they seek from us. They could have a desire
        to manipulate us in hopes of reducing the threat we could pose them
        in their activities. I am sure I can think of more but you get my drift
        here.


        Have you ever read any old faerie books??? In the ones I have read
        that is exactly why they left... Mankind was fearful of them because
        they could do these things. Doesn't mean they will, just that they
        could...I don't think they are perfect and I think we will run into good
        ones and not so good ones, just like humans... It's kind of like when a
        woman runs across a man in a forest and she is alone right... How
        does she know
        he is nice or not???

        Again you speak truth here. We have within us a race trait and
        conditioned response. It is the Fight or Flight response we developed
        to help us survive as hunter / gatherers and stretches all the way to
        our most ancient past. It is ingrained in us and we can not overcome
        this without engaging our intellect. Still you exhibit this reaction
        every time you are confronted as do I.
        This could also be a reason for their subterfuge and lack of
        forthright interaction wit us.

        J:What if you had a conversation with someone and asked them to
        give you a rose or hearts in the clouds and then within three days a
        crop circle shows up with a heart in it??? Then another one that
        looks like a rose... What would you think???ha ha

        I would think that these individuals are attempting to convince me of
        their power and abilities to manipulate me.

        J:Why won't you accept that they are telepaths??? I'm not the only
        one that says this... I don't think you will believe anyone until you do it
        yourself...


        Again you made an assumption here. I do not discount the possibility
        that they are telepathic I suspect they have a facility in this and that
        is a source or possible reason for the reconfiguration of our brain in
        their attempt to communicate with us or manipulate us.
        I do not wish to speak ill of you or cause you distress in any way. I
        hope you can see my points here and understand I do not discount
        your assertions only wish you would consider my view as an objective
        observer. I have no personal agenda other than to put forth my
        thoughts and ideas so that we might find some connections to our
        respective experience and that of others. I recognize that the
        patterns of all the encounters and experiences form a picture that
        may not be pleasant but does remain in the realm of possibility.
        Warmly
        Vern





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