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Re: English and Turkish grammar terminology / case names

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  • fife_campbell@hotmail.com
    ... off ... Yes this is true but I m one of those folks who speaks his L2 better when he doesn t think about it. The idea that we think with a different part
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 3, 2000
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      > You are surely right about the difficulty of describing Turkish in
      > terms of latin grammar models and concepts. However, I find that so
      > many similarities are present, that any beginner can safely start
      off
      > with using English/Latin terminology. To have to start off with
      > learning the Turkish forms would be more than Ý could chew :)
      > The Turkish names are not self explanatory , so without a grammar to
      > guide you you're lost anyway ..

      Yes this is true but I'm one of those folks who speaks his L2 better
      when he doesn't think about it. The idea that we think with a
      different "part" of our brain when we use our L2 is something I buy
      completely. I like to remove as much English or Turkish or Scots as
      possible when I speak or learn Turkish.

      > I dont know the book you are referring to. None of the grammars
      > Ý've
      > seen (English, Norwegian) use Turkish terminology. Ýs there a
      > confusion to some extent about the Turkish terminology ? More than
      > once Ý've had different terms presented for the same things.

      Yeah I think so! This book provided Turkish and Swedish terms for
      grammar items.
    • Arzu Coltekin
      Hello again, tekrar merhaba, Ok, as I promised almost a week ago, I am back with the hikaye/rivayet/$art story. First of all, as Volkan gave the literal
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 4, 2000
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        Hello again, tekrar merhaba,

        Ok, as I promised almost a week ago, I am back with the
        "hikaye/rivayet/$art" story.

        First of all, as Volkan gave the literal meanings of these three words:

        hikaye (syn. OykU)= story (used in modern Turkish for the very meaning)
        rivayet (syn. sOylenti)= rumor (same as above)
        $art (syn. ko$ul)= condition (same as above)

        so they are foreign origin, but I'd like to say, 'naturalized' in Turkish
        and are used in daily language.

        Then.. Since I mixed up the stuff by throwing the question, and later was
        lucky to find a forgotton grammer book (Nurettin KoC's "YabancIlar iCin
        dilbilgisi" .. I don't even remember why and how did I get that copy.. but
        there it was, on my office shelves.. ) I found a nice page covering our
        puzzle about this.

        > > ... If that's the case then S.z.sart would be "geliyorsa".
        > >
        > > You are very right.
        > >
        > > What is your source for
        > > "1. S.z. (rivayet) : geliyormuS
        > > 2. S.z. (hikaye) : geliyordu
        > > 3. S.z. (sart) : geliyor " ?
        > > There exists a mistake there. Because "geliyor" is just Simdiki
        > Zaman. Let
        > > Arzu confirm me about that.

        Sevgili Nazik, very kind of you (just like your name, eh? :)..

        I am most honored with your reference to me, I wish I could really take
        this compliment. I am just a speculator really, and I do sincerely ask
        from the professionals that they should confirm my speculations. So when I
        don't give any references, don't take me for a "black book" ..

        (paranthesis for "black book" -- an idiomatic use in TR, for a book that
        old-time-judges used. it was supposed to have the correct assesment of
        anything.. so it is not the Orhan Pamuk novel called "kara kitap",
        although that one seems to have nice stuff as well! :) .. before closing
        the paranthesis, I'd like to have a etimological review for the color
        names in Turkish, anybody? Why do we have double names for some colors?)

        Yes, back to what I was saying.. (they'll arrest me one day only because I
        talk too much... do you think this is possible?)

        > What can I say Nazik, I'm a talented young man :O)

        talented, no doubt, young, you may have to prove ;)

        > Nah, it was total gueswork!

        Ok, you really did fine with the guess work according to the book here..

        These tenses are called "bile$ik zaman" - compound tense.
        Three compound tenses in Tr.

        Hikaye, Rivayet, $art.

        They can be blended with almost all the regular tenses, e.g. Past
        tense (geCmi$ zaman), Simple tense (geni$ zaman), future tense (gelecek
        zaman), Continious tense ($imdiki zaman).. etc.

        Since we started with '$imdiki zaman', I'll hereby confirm (with the help
        of the book) that Barry & Nazik were just right. Hope this agreement will
        bring peace to the earth. :)

        $.z.h = geliyordum (I was coming)
        -gelmiyordum (negative)

        $.z.r = geliyormu$um (I was said to be coming)
        -gelmiyormu$um (neg)

        $.z.$ = geliyorsam (if I was coming)
        -gelmiyorsam (neg)

        All the best,
        -Arzu
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