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RE: [turkishlearner] etymology of müslüman?

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  • Tim Davies
    Does anyone know the historical origin of the word müslüman? I don t know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem produced Muslim, Musulman and Islam etc.,
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2006
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      Does anyone know the historical origin of the word müslüman?
      I don't know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem produced Muslim,
      Musulman and Islam etc., so that much I understand.
      But the Turkish looks as if it consists of a noun müs + the suffix -lú + the
      personal noun-maker 'man'.
      Or has it just been assimilated from Arabic? does müs mean anything on its
      own?
      Tim
    • Esen Gur
      Hi Tim, According to Sevan Niþanyan s Etimoloji Sözlüðü, Müslüman originates from the word selam which in Arabic means be in good health/ safe .
      Message 2 of 20 , May 1, 2006
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        Hi Tim,

        According to Sevan Niþanyan's Etimoloji Sözlüðü, "Müslüman" originates from the word "selam" which in Arabic means ""be in good health/ safe". Thus "selam" originates "Ýslam" which means "to trust/to surrender to be safe". And "müslüman" is simply "one who surrenders". You're right about the -man suffix. This suffix is a personal noun maker such as in "tercüman" (translator, one who translates: tercüme eden)

        By the way "Teslim olma" for "surrender" also points out the same origin in Arabic.

        And "müs" on its own does not mean anything, it's actually "mü/mu" that means something: it's a prefix in Arabic, a personal noun maker just like "-man". Here are some examples to it:

        müdavim: devam eden (frequenter, one who frequently (devamlý) visits some place)
        mütercim: another word for "translator" again, one who translates, "tercüme eden". One of them should be farsi, I'm not sure, bot both are used.
        müsebbip: sebep olan, causer, one who causes stg.

        Hope I made it clear, it's difficult when you try to trace the arabic/farsi origins. Niþanyan's dictionary helps a lot. http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/

        Kolay gelsin :)
        Esen Gür

        Tim Davies <timadavies@...> wrote:
        Does anyone know the historical origin of the word müslüman?
        I don't know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem produced Muslim,
        Musulman and Islam etc., so that much I understand.
        But the Turkish looks as if it consists of a noun müs + the suffix -lú + the
        personal noun-maker 'man'.
        Or has it just been assimilated from Arabic? does müs mean anything on its
        own?
        Tim




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      • burak
        To my knowledge, one of the meanings of the word selam is peace..so, origin of the word musluman is also peace. ... Hi Tim, According to Sevan Niþanyan s
        Message 3 of 20 , May 1, 2006
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          To my knowledge, one of the meanings of the word selam
          is peace..so, origin of the word musluman is also
          peace.


          --- Esen Gur <kuskurza@...> wrote:


          ---------------------------------
          Hi Tim,

          According to Sevan Niþanyan's Etimoloji Sözlüðü,
          "Müslüman" originates from the word "selam" which in
          Arabic means ""be in good health/ safe". Thus "selam"
          originates "Ýslam" which means "to trust/to surrender
          to be safe". And "müslüman" is simply "one who
          surrenders". You're right about the -man suffix. This
          suffix is a personal noun maker such as in "tercüman"
          (translator, one who translates: tercüme eden)

          By the way "Teslim olma" for "surrender" also points
          out the same origin in Arabic.

          And "müs" on its own does not mean anything, it's
          actually "mü/mu" that means something: it's a prefix
          in Arabic, a personal noun maker just like "-man".
          Here are some examples to it:

          müdavim: devam eden (frequenter, one who frequently
          (devamlý) visits some place)
          mütercim: another word for "translator" again, one
          who translates, "tercüme eden". One of them should be
          farsi, I'm not sure, bot both are used.
          müsebbip: sebep olan, causer, one who causes stg.

          Hope I made it clear, it's difficult when you try to
          trace the arabic/farsi origins. Niþanyan's dictionary
          helps a lot. http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/

          Kolay gelsin :)
          Esen Gür

          Tim Davies <timadavies@...> wrote:
          Does anyone know the historical origin of the word
          müslüman?
          I don't know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem
          produced Muslim,
          Musulman and Islam etc., so that much I understand.
          But the Turkish looks as if it consists of a noun müs
          + the suffix -lú + the
          personal noun-maker 'man'.
          Or has it just been assimilated from Arabic? does müs
          mean anything on its
          own?
          Tim




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        • Erol Tunali
          ... From: gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Av.Murat Bülent Hattatoglu Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:42 PM
          Message 4 of 20 , May 2, 2006
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            Below you'll find what a friend has learnt from another list, for me:



            -----Original Message-----
            From: gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Av.Murat Bülent Hattatoglu
            Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:42 PM
            To: gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [GXneX Dil KuramX] Re: [Güneþ Dil Kuramý] FW: RE: [turkishlearner] etymology of mXslXman?


            Merhabalar,
            Esen Gür öbekdeþimizin açýklamalarý esas itibarýyla doðrudur. Bir-iki husus eklenebilir :
            1) Müselmân sözcüðü Müslim'in deðiþik söyleniþidir, belki de Farsça telâffuzdur, bilemiyorum. Arapça aslýnýn, daha doðrusu, biz Türk'lerin Arapça aslýndan kaynaklanarak telâffuz þeklinin Müslim idiðini biliyoruz. "Müslüman" diye biz diyoruz, sin ile lam arasýnda vav veya baþka birþey yoktur çünkü. Þurasý da vurgulanasýdýr ki, sondaki -mân kýsmý, Türkçe'deki gibi baðýmsýz ek deðildir. Çünkü -m harfi ek olmayýp doðrudan doðruya köke dâhildir. Tercümân örneði de aynýdýr, gerçek telâffuzu "tercemân"dýr ve "terceme"den gelir, te-re-cim-mim-he yazýlýr. Arapça bilmiyorum, o kýsmýný sayýn Turhan Tisinli'ye danýþmalýdýr, ama Osmanlýca bilgime dayanarak söyleyebilirim ki, bu sözcük eðer fiil çekimlerinin tef'il bâbýndan ise o halde kökünün de
            re-cim-mim olmasý gerekir. Böyle 2 sözcük biliyoruz : a) Recm=Taþlama, taþa tutma; çoðulu rücûm. b) Rücüm=Akan yýldýz, kuyrukluyýldýz; bunun da çoðulu rücûm. Eðer kök bu ikincisi ise, "yýldýzýn bir yerden diðerine akýp kaydýðý gibi, birþeyi bir dilden diðerine aktarmak" þeklinde kavram anlamý kazandýrýlmýþ olabilir.
            Eðer terceme sözcüðü isim ise, çekimli bir fiil deðil ise, o zaman tef'il bâbýndan da olmaz , o halde bu yorumum yanlýþ demektir.
            2) Müslim-selam-sâlim-selamet hep silm=sin-lam-mim kökünden gelir. Selm deðil de silm okunmasý, esireli olmasýndan ileri geliyor. Teslîm sözcüðünün ise seleme kökünden geldiði yazýlýdýr Ferit Devellioðlu'da ve diðerlerinde. Ancak, seleme de silm'den geliyor olabilir, bu nokta da yine Osmanlýca bilgisi ile deðil ancak Arapça filolojiyle çözülebilir. Silm'in de, selâmetin de anlamýnýn ise, "barýþýklýk hali, barýþ ortamý" idiði tartýþmasýzdýr, arkadaþýmýz burada da isabet buyurmuþtur.
            3) Þalom sözcüðünün selam ile ayný idiði de bilinmektedir, zaten Ýbranca ile Arapça ayný Sami dilinin kollarýdýr. Beyt-ül Lahim'in Ýbranca'da Bethlehem, Yevm-i Kebîr'in Yom Kippur vs. olmasý gibi. Muhtemelen kökü de aynýdýr.
            4) Mu-, mü- kýsmýna gelince: Bunlarýn kendi baþýna birþey ifade etmediði tabiî ki doðrudur; bu mim, fiilden özne ve nesne yapar. Müþeddîd=Þiddet kökünden, þiddetlendiren demek olur; müþedded dersek o zaman da "þiddetlendirilmiþ" olur. Sonda -y varsa özne olur, yoksa -e'li okunup nesne olur. Bunlar tamam. Bir tek þunu eklemek istiyorum ki, o çekim eki zaten mu- veya mü- deðildir, yalnýzca m-'dir, fiillerin çekim kuralý böyledir. M-'den sonraki sessizle arasýnda kalýn mý ince mi okunacaðý, sessizlerin ince mi kalýn mý idiðine baðlýdýr, bunlarla karar verilemeyecek sözcüklerde (örneðin re'nin kalýný incesi yoktur, buna raðmen mürur deriz) telâffuz ise, harekesine göredir (konmuþsa tabiî, çoðu kez konmaz biliyorsunuz!)
            Saygýlarýmla sevgili öbekdeþlerim,
            Av.Murat
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ugur Murat Leloglu
            To: Gunesdilkurami (E-mail)
            Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 5:51 PM
            Subject: [Güneþ Dil Kuramý] FW: RE: [turkishlearner] etymology of mXslXman?



            Aþaðýdaki konuda yorum yapabilecek olan var mý? Þimdiden teþekkürler.

            Uður Murat


            Esen Gur <kuskurza@...> wrote: To: turkishlearner@yahoogroups.com
            From: Esen Gur <kuskurza@...>
            Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 04:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
            Subject: RE: [turkishlearner] etymology of müslüman?

            Hi Tim,

            According to Sevan Niþanyan's Etimoloji Sözlüðü, "Müslüman" originates from the word "selam" which in Arabic means ""be in good health/ safe". Thus "selam" originates "Ýslam" which means "to trust/to surrender to be safe". And "müslüman" is simply "one who surrenders". You're right about the -man suffix. This suffix is a personal noun maker such as in "tercüman" (translator, one who translates: tercüme eden)

            By the way "Teslim olma" for "surrender" also points out the same origin in Arabic.

            And "müs" on its own does not mean anything, it's actually "mü/mu" that means something: it's a prefix in Arabic, a personal noun maker just like "-man". Here are some examples to it:

            müdavim: devam eden (frequenter, one who frequently (devamlý) visits some place)
            mütercim: another word for "translator" again, one who translates, "tercüme eden". One of them should be farsi, I'm not sure, bot both are used.
            müsebbip: sebep olan, causer, one who causes stg.

            Hope I made it clear, it's difficult when you try to trace the arabic/farsi origins. Niþanyan's dictionary helps a lot. http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/

            Kolay gelsin :)
            Esen Gür

            Tim Davies <timadavies@...> wrote:
            Does anyone know the historical origin of the word müslüman?
            I don't know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem produced Muslim,
            Musulman and Islam etc., so that much I understand.
            But the Turkish looks as if it consists of a noun müs + the suffix -lú + the
            personal noun-maker 'man'.
            Or has it just been assimilated from Arabic? does müs mean anything on its
            own?
            Tim




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          • can_bekaroglu
            Hello, Even though Esen Gür and Uğur already told a good deal about the issue, here is what I know about the word müslüman . The word muslim is Arabic
            Message 5 of 20 , May 29, 2006
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              Hello,


              Even though Esen Gür and Uður already told a good deal about the
              issue, here is what I know about the word "müslüman".

              The word "muslim" is Arabic as already known, and the Turkish way
              of pronunciation (with vowal harmony and sutitable orthography)
              is "müslüm".
              The suffix "an" is Persian origin, which usually transforms
              adjectives into nouns, so the Persian Muslim+an usage,
              meaning "Muslim person" is spelled and pronunced like Müslüman. The
              same word is usually used like "Muselman" as borrowed from the
              Turks, rather than the Arabs, and used according to their
              orthography.

              Best Regards,
              Can Bekaroðlu




              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Av.Murat Bülent
              Hattatoglu
              > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 12:42 PM
              > To: gunesdilkurami@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [GXneX Dil KuramX] Re: [Güneþ Dil Kuramý] FW: RE:
              [turkishlearner] etymology of mXslXman?
              >
              >
              > Merhabalar,
              > Esen Gür öbekdeþimizin açýklamalarý esas itibarýyla
              doðrudur. Bir-iki husus eklenebilir :
              > 1) Müselmân sözcüðü Müslim'in deðiþik söyleniþidir, belki de
              Farsça telâffuzdur, bilemiyorum. Arapça aslýnýn, daha doðrusu, biz
              Türk'lerin Arapça aslýndan kaynaklanarak telâffuz þeklinin Müslim
              idiðini biliyoruz. "Müslüman" diye biz diyoruz, sin ile lam arasýnda
              vav veya baþka birþey yoktur çünkü. Þurasý da vurgulanasýdýr ki,
              sondaki -mân kýsmý, Türkçe'deki gibi baðýmsýz ek deðildir. Çünkü -m
              harfi ek olmayýp doðrudan doðruya köke dâhildir. Tercümân örneði de
              aynýdýr, gerçek telâffuzu "tercemân"dýr ve "terceme"den gelir, te-re-
              cim-mim-he yazýlýr. Arapça bilmiyorum, o kýsmýný sayýn Turhan
              Tisinli'ye danýþmalýdýr, ama Osmanlýca bilgime dayanarak
              söyleyebilirim ki, bu sözcük eðer fiil çekimlerinin tef'il bâbýndan
              ise o halde kökünün de
              > re-cim-mim olmasý gerekir. Böyle 2 sözcük biliyoruz : a)
              Recm=Taþlama, taþa tutma; çoðulu rücûm. b) Rücüm=Akan yýldýz,
              kuyrukluyýldýz; bunun da çoðulu rücûm. Eðer kök bu ikincisi
              ise, "yýldýzýn bir yerden diðerine akýp kaydýðý gibi, birþeyi bir
              dilden diðerine aktarmak" þeklinde kavram anlamý kazandýrýlmýþ
              olabilir.
              > Eðer terceme sözcüðü isim ise, çekimli bir fiil deðil ise, o
              zaman tef'il bâbýndan da olmaz , o halde bu yorumum yanlýþ demektir.
              > 2) Müslim-selam-sâlim-selamet hep silm=sin-lam-mim kökünden
              gelir. Selm deðil de silm okunmasý, esireli olmasýndan ileri
              geliyor. Teslîm sözcüðünün ise seleme kökünden geldiði yazýlýdýr
              Ferit Devellioðlu'da ve diðerlerinde. Ancak, seleme de silm'den
              geliyor olabilir, bu nokta da yine Osmanlýca bilgisi ile deðil ancak
              Arapça filolojiyle çözülebilir. Silm'in de, selâmetin de anlamýnýn
              ise, "barýþýklýk hali, barýþ ortamý" idiði tartýþmasýzdýr,
              arkadaþýmýz burada da isabet buyurmuþtur.
              > 3) Þalom sözcüðünün selam ile ayný idiði de bilinmektedir,
              zaten Ýbranca ile Arapça ayný Sami dilinin kollarýdýr. Beyt-ül
              Lahim'in Ýbranca'da Bethlehem, Yevm-i Kebîr'in Yom Kippur vs. olmasý
              gibi. Muhtemelen kökü de aynýdýr.
              > 4) Mu-, mü- kýsmýna gelince: Bunlarýn kendi baþýna birþey
              ifade etmediði tabiî ki doðrudur; bu mim, fiilden özne ve nesne
              yapar. Müþeddîd=Þiddet kökünden, þiddetlendiren demek olur; müþedded
              dersek o zaman da "þiddetlendirilmiþ" olur. Sonda -y varsa özne
              olur, yoksa -e'li okunup nesne olur. Bunlar tamam. Bir tek þunu
              eklemek istiyorum ki, o çekim eki zaten mu- veya mü- deðildir,
              yalnýzca m-'dir, fiillerin çekim kuralý böyledir. M-'den sonraki
              sessizle arasýnda kalýn mý ince mi okunacaðý, sessizlerin ince mi
              kalýn mý idiðine baðlýdýr, bunlarla karar verilemeyecek sözcüklerde
              (örneðin re'nin kalýný incesi yoktur, buna raðmen mürur deriz)
              telâffuz ise, harekesine göredir (konmuþsa tabiî, çoðu kez konmaz
              biliyorsunuz!)
              > Saygýlarýmla sevgili öbekdeþlerim,
              > Av.Murat
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ugur Murat Leloglu
              > To: Gunesdilkurami (E-mail)
              > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 5:51 PM
              > Subject: [Güneþ Dil Kuramý] FW: RE:
              [turkishlearner] etymology of mXslXman?
              >
              >
              >
              > Aþaðýdaki konuda yorum yapabilecek olan var mý? Þimdiden
              teþekkürler.
              >
              > Uður Murat
              >
              >
              > Esen Gur <kuskurza@...> wrote: To: turkishlearner@yahoogroups.com
              > From: Esen Gur <kuskurza@...>
              > Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 04:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
              > Subject: RE: [turkishlearner] etymology of müslüman?
              >
              > Hi Tim,
              >
              > According to Sevan Niþanyan's Etimoloji
              Sözlüðü, "Müslüman" originates from the word "selam" which in
              Arabic means ""be in good health/ safe". Thus "selam"
              originates "Ýslam" which means "to trust/to surrender to be
              safe". And "müslüman" is simply "one who surrenders". You're right
              about the -man suffix. This suffix is a personal noun maker such as
              in "tercüman" (translator, one who translates: tercüme eden)
              >
              > By the way "Teslim olma" for "surrender" also points out the
              same origin in Arabic.
              >
              > And "müs" on its own does not mean anything, it's
              actually "mü/mu" that means something: it's a prefix in Arabic, a
              personal noun maker just like "-man". Here are some examples to it:
              >
              > müdavim: devam eden (frequenter, one who frequently
              (devamlý) visits some place)
              > mütercim: another word for "translator" again, one who
              translates, "tercüme eden". One of them should be farsi, I'm not
              sure, bot both are used.
              > müsebbip: sebep olan, causer, one who causes stg.
              >
              > Hope I made it clear, it's difficult when you try to trace the
              arabic/farsi origins. Niþanyan's dictionary helps a lot.
              http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/
              >
              > Kolay gelsin :)
              > Esen Gür
              >
              > Tim Davies <timadavies@...> wrote:
              > Does anyone know the historical origin of the word müslüman?
              > I don't know Arabic, but was told that the s-l-m stem produced
              Muslim,
              > Musulman and Islam etc., so that much I understand.
              > But the Turkish looks as if it consists of a noun müs + the
              suffix -lú + the
              > personal noun-maker 'man'.
              > Or has it just been assimilated from Arabic? does müs mean
              anything on its
              > own?
              > Tim
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
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              >
              > adresine boþ bir ileti gönderiniz.
              > Topluluktan ayrýlmak isterseniz,
              >
              > gunesdilkurami-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > adresine boþ bir ileti atýnýz.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              Learn turkish language Turkish language Learning turkish
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              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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