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Re: Are there two kinds of pitch?

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  • Kalle
    ... Then in what circumstances do you have this two different things under the hood feeling? ... No, I m not. My point is that separate cues can contribute
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2010
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      --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
      >
      > Kalle wrote:
      > > > I think there's a single pitch gestalt, but it's not a perfect
      > > > one, and in some circumstances I feel I can phenomenally detect
      > > > two different things under the hood. It's hard to know quite
      > > > what to make of such feelings however.
      > >
      > > That's really interesting. So if I understand correctly, you think
      > > that pure tones have both of these things.
      >
      > The phenomenal sensation for me is that they have only one.

      Then in what circumstances do you have this "two different things
      under the hood" feeling?

      > > > I suppose... correlated is a strange way to put it.
      > >
      > > I go with a stronger claim that there is a biological subsystem
      > > whose function is to detect periodicity in the signal. This same
      > > subsystem might have both time domain and frequency domain
      > > mechanisms for periodicity detection.
      >
      > Are you familiar with Oxenham et al 2004?

      No, I'm not.

      My point is that separate cues can contribute to a unitary sensation.
      For example, we know that auditory localization uses different cues
      but all contribute to a unitary perception. Terhardt on the other
      hand seems to confuse the number of mechanisms with the number of
      psychological attributes in the case of pitch.

      Kalle Aho
    • Carl Lumma
      ... Pure tones and complex tones 4K have a similar quality which is different from complex tones
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2010
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        > > > That's really interesting. So if I understand correctly,
        > > > you think that pure tones have both of these things.
        > >
        > > The phenomenal sensation for me is that they have only one.
        >
        > Then in what circumstances do you have this "two different things
        > under the hood" feeling?

        Pure tones and complex tones > 4K have a similar quality
        which is different from complex tones < 4K.

        > > > I go with a stronger claim that there is a biological
        > > > subsystem whose function is to detect periodicity in the
        > > > signal. This same subsystem might have both time domain
        > > > and frequency domain mechanisms for periodicity detection.
        > >
        > > Are you familiar with Oxenham et al 2004?
        >
        > No, I'm not.

        It's an interesting experiment though I have some outstanding
        questions about it, and I have problems with how people have
        interpreted the results (Shama 2004 for instance). You should
        check it out.

        > My point is that separate cues can contribute to a unitary
        > sensation.

        Indeed. That's sort of the whole purpose of the brain - to
        find causes for noisy and disparate sensory inputs.

        -Carl
      • Marcel de Velde
        ... Couldn t the cause of this simply be the limit of human hearing? 15k to 20k or so for most people. And this isn t a sudden cutoff but a gentle slope of
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1, 2010
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          Pure tones and complex tones > 4K have a similar quality
          which is different from complex tones < 4K.

          Couldn't the cause of this simply be the limit of human hearing?
          15k to 20k or so for most people. And this isn't a sudden cutoff but a gentle slope of lesser hearing starting above.. 4k?
          So for a 5k sound at most (with degredation) harmonics 2 octaves above can be heard.
          As for noise, noise become less noise like and more tone like when there isn't much bandwidth, so a noise that is for instance sharply high passed at 5k is also low passed by the ear from 5k till 15k-20k, making the complex tone much less complex?
           


          > My point is that separate cues can contribute to a unitary
          > sensation.

          Indeed. That's sort of the whole purpose of the brain - to
          find causes for noisy and disparate sensory inputs.

          -Carl

          Oh that's a great statement!
          And so true.
          It is why I think music is JI. JI = brainmath :)

          Marcel
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