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Re: Diagrammatic Tunings and "Well" Temperament

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  • Andreas Sparschuh
    ... Hi Claudio & Ham, ... such questionable ... the broadly claiming ... http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 9, 2009
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      --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Claudio Di Veroli" <dvc@...> wrote:
      >
      Hi Claudio & Ham,

      > Not surprising that you have issues with
      such questionable
      > authors like
      the broadly claiming
      > Lehman,
      > Francis,
      > Kellner and Jorgensen.

      http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_(person)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crackpot_index
      http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
      http://www.crank.net/


      > Their writings and scientific methods - or lack thereof - have been
      > sharply criticised by scholarly reviewers.
      http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/tuning/message/79178

      > There have been numerous - IMHO unsuccessful -
      > modern attempts to relate the
      > Bach WTC squiggle and signet ring with a WIDE ASSORTMENT of
      > temperaments.
      http://ibo.ortgies.googlepages.com/errataandcorrigendatolindleyortgies:%22bac
      "Lehman is following previous musings, especially by Andreas
      Sparschuh, who published the ornamental-scroll idea on September 9th,
      1999 (9/9/99) as a kind of practical joke to make fun of Kellner."

      > The best scholar in the discussion is undoubtedly Ibo Ortgies.
      Together with my personal friend:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Lindley
      http://www.bfg-muenchen.de/lindl_e.htm
      He agrees with me, that the decorative "squiggles" are ornamental
      and may serve as source of inspiration in order to invent/create new
      modern temperaments, as demonstrated in my academic lectures since 1998:
      http://www.math.uni-bielefeld.de/~fspm_gk/Veranstaltungen/Vortraege/Abstracts/sparschuh1.html
      Motivation:
      "Rekonstruktion barocker Temperaturen insbesondere bei Bach"

      > ....my recent Unequal Temperaments book includes
      > a full coverage of the modern proposals for Bach's temperament and
      > some practical conclusions for the modern musician.

      What do you think about the 1960 initial attempts? of:
      http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Kelletat
      's
      http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-.html

      http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T026.html
      http://groenewald-berlin.de/tabellen/TAB-026.html
      and
      http://groenewald-berlin.de/text/text_T046.html
      http://groenewald-berlin.de/tabellen/TAB-046.html

      and the later:
      http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-1.html
      http://www.herbert.kelletat.de/Werk/Schriften_______________/Zur_musikalischen_Temperatur_-/zur_musikalischen_temperatur_-2.html
      ?


      > After reading some papers by Bradley Lehman, Charles Francis and
      > Herbert Kellner I have some issues.
      > First, these authors seem to be absolutely convinced that the
      > patterns on, say, Bach's WTC cover page and Bach's signet indicate
      > some kind of
      odd
      > temperament system despite the fact there is
      absolute
      > no evidence for this.

      > The only paper I've read that delves into Bach tuning by sticking to
      > and actually citing portions of relevant historical documents is
      > that by R.A. Rasch.
      which depends mostly on Kelletat.

      bye
      A.S.
    • Daniel Forro
      Finally reasonable idea. Anyway it s not important if it s so or so. When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade of detuning, it s
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 9, 2009
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        Finally reasonable idea. Anyway it's not important if it's so or so.
        When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade
        of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
        beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning. Let's
        play it, listen to it and enjoy it. Sometimes too much paper is
        destroyed by unfruitful speculations.

        Daniel Forro


        On 10 Feb 2009, at 2:41 AM, ham_45242 wrote:
        >
        >
        > Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
        > that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
        > acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
        > irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
        > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
        > taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
        > for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,
        >
      • Andreas Sparschuh
        ... but depends on http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero unfortunately by mischance there isn t yet any
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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          --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:

          > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade
          > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
          > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.

          but depends on

          http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
          http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
          unfortunately by mischance
          there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.

          Quest:
          Which native English speaker is able close that gap?


          > Sometimes too much
          laymanish
          > paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.

          Ham wrote:
          > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
          > > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
          > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
          Very probably never.

          bye
          A.S.
        • Tom Dent
          by the way: an essay is now online http://occambach.jottit.com/ I was so annoyed by the nonsense of an article in 2006 that I wrote this, but never found it
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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            by the way: an essay is now online

            http://occambach.jottit.com/

            I was so annoyed by the nonsense of an article in 2006 that I wrote
            this, but never found it important enough to publish yet...
            ~~~T~~~

            --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
            >
            > Finally reasonable idea. Anyway it's not important if it's so or so.
            > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different grade
            > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
            > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning. Let's
            > play it, listen to it and enjoy it. Sometimes too much paper is
            > destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
            >
            > Daniel Forro
            >
            >
            > On 10 Feb 2009, at 2:41 AM, ham_45242 wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Weighing Rasch's view with that of, say, Owen Jorgensen, I conclude
            > > that "Well Temperament" can refer to any 12-tone system that is
            > > acceptably playable in all 12 keys and can refer to either an
            > > irregular temperament or ET. Whether "acceptably" can include things
            > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
            > > taste. And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
            > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved. Sincerely,
            > >
          • Carl Lumma
            ... Yaay Jottit!!! -Carl
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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              --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > by the way: an essay is now online
              >
              > http://occambach.jottit.com/

              Yaay Jottit!!!

              -Carl
            • Daniel Forró
              Kein Problem, ich verstehe Deutsch sowie Esperanto ohne grössere Probleme. Daniel Forro
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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                Kein Problem, ich verstehe Deutsch sowie Esperanto ohne grössere
                Probleme.

                Daniel Forro

                On 11 Feb 2009, at 5:54 AM, Andreas Sparschuh wrote:
                > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
                >
                > > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different
                > grade
                > > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
                > > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.
                >
                > but depends on
                >
                > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
                > http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
                > unfortunately by mischance
                > there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.
                >
                > Quest:
                > Which native English speaker is able close that gap?
                >
                > > Sometimes too much
                > laymanish
                > > paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
                >
                > Ham wrote:
                > > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
                > > > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
                > > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
                > Very probably never.
                >
                > bye
                > A.S.
                >
              • Daniel Forro
                That article confirmed what I have written. In other words: If some kind of unequal temperament is used, every key has different relations (= chord detuning)
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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                  That article confirmed what I have written. In other words: If some
                  kind of unequal temperament is used, every key has different
                  relations (= chord detuning) and therefore character is different,
                  which can help to increase contrast between pieces (when all of them
                  are played in sequence).

                  If 12ET is used, there is no difference between different keys, but
                  never mind, beauty of music itself can't be destroyed by it. Impact
                  of that music doesn't depend on tuning (unequal or equal temperament).

                  So I agree with both camps, using of unequal tuning or ET. Both is
                  possible. Problem solved.

                  Daniel Forro

                  On 11 Feb 2009, at 5:54 AM, Andreas Sparschuh wrote:

                  > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > When the differences between pieces are emphasized by different
                  > grade
                  > > of detuning, it's possible, if not, no problem. That music itself is
                  > > beautiful and contrasting enough, it's independent from tuning.
                  >
                  > but depends on
                  >
                  > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonartencharakter
                  > http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonalkaraktero
                  > unfortunately by mischance
                  > there isn't yet any English wiki-entry for that topic.
                  >
                  > Quest:
                  > Which native English speaker is able close that gap?
                  >
                  > > Sometimes too much
                  > laymanish
                  > > paper is destroyed by unfruitful speculations.
                  >
                  > Ham wrote:
                  > > > like wide Pythagorean thirds (408 cents) is a matter of personal
                  > > > And whether 12-key sets of pieces like the WTC were intended
                  > > > for ET or not will probably never be resolved.
                  > Very probably never.
                  >
                  > bye
                  > A.S.
                  >
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