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New septenarius for a'=440 Hz, was Re: Werckmeister's Septinarius temperament

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  • Andreas Sparschuh
    ... agreed, hence i do return to W s original 131. ... also right, hence so the resulting ratios get even more simple: The calculations benefit from that by
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 17 11:49 AM
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      --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
      >
      > > 1113/1112 c#"556 c#'278 c#139
      > > 417/416 g#208 G#104
      > > eb'312 eb156 Eb78
      > > bb'468 bb234 Bb117
      > > f'351
      > > 1053/1052 c"526 c'263/262 131
      > > g'393/392 196 98 49=7*7
      >
      > I don't think this is so good, you have C-G tempered by 262/263
      > which
      > is about 1/3 comma...
      agreed, hence i do return to W's original 131.
      >
      > Better to have 315/350 f'350 f175 and 525/524 c''524 c262 131 ... ?
      >
      also right, hence so the resulting ratios get even more simple:
      The calculations benefit from that by less computational0 overhead.

      Follow the classical way:
      start traditional @ pitch-class GAMMA=G alike in:

      http://www.celestialmonochord.org/log/images/celestial_monochord.jpg

      GG 49 := 7*7 (GAMMA-ut, the empty string in the picture)
      D 147
      3D441 > a'440 a220 A110 AA55Hz=the AA-string of a double-bass
      e 165
      3e495 > b'494 b247
      3b741 > f#"740 f#'370 f#185
      c# "555
      3c#"1665 > g#"'1664 g#"832 g#'416 g#208 G#104 GG#52 GGG#26 GGGG#13
      EEb 39
      Bb 117
      3Bb351 > f'350 f175
      3f525 > c"524 c'263 c131
      3c393 > g'392 g196 G98 GG49=7^2 returned

      !septenarius_GG49Hz.scl
      sparschuh's version @ middle-c'=262Hz or a'=440Hz
      12
      !absolute pitches relativ to c=131 Hz
      555/524 ! c# 138.75 Hz
      147/131 ! d
      156/131 ! eb
      165/131 ! e
      175/131 ! f
      185/131 ! f#
      196/131 ! g
      208/131 ! g#
      220/131 ! a 440Hz/2
      234/131 ! bb
      247/131 ! b
      2/1


      That results on my old piano in the first/lowest octave:

      AAA 27.5 Hz lowest pitch, on the first white key on the left side
      BBBb29.25 next upper black key
      BBB 30.875 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass "at~30.87 hertz"..
      CC_ 32.875
      CC# 34.6875 := c"555/16
      DD_ 36.75
      EEb 39 := GGGG#13Hz*3
      EE_ 41.25 ..."E1 (on standard four-string basses) at ~41.20 Hz
      FF_ 43.75
      FF# 46.25
      GG_ 49 := 7*7 Werckmeister's/Scheibler's initial septimal choice
      GG# 52 = GGGG#13Hz*4
      AA_ 55 = 440Hz/8 ; 3 octaves below Scheibler's choice

      http://mmd.foxtail.com/Tech/jorgensen.html
      #133: "Johann Heinrich Scheibler's metronome method of 1836"

      http://www.41hz.com
      "41 Hz is the frequency of the low E string on a double bass or an
      electric bass." if it has none additional 5th string
      for midi(B0)=BBB 30.875 Hz an 2nd above AAA 27.5 Hz,
      the lowest A on the piano, without attending or even careing
      "string-imharmonicty"
      http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JASMAN0000760000S1000S22000004&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

      Consider the 3rds qualities in violins empty sting G-D-A-E block order:

      1: G > B > Eb> G
      2: D > F#> Bb> D
      3: A > C#> F > A
      4: E > G#> C > E

      1: G > B > Eb > G.
      absolute analysis:
      GG 49.
      5*49 = 245 < b'247 < 248 124 62 31
      5*31 = 155 < eb156 Eb78 EEb39
      5*39 = 195 < g196 G98 GG7*7.
      relative diesis 128/125 subpartition:
      G 123.5/122.5 B 96/95 Eb 196/195 G
      G ~14.1 cents B ~18.1 Eb ~ 8.86c G

      2: D > F# > Bb > D.
      abs:
      d147. < 148 74 37
      5*37 = f#185 < 186 93
      5*31*3=3*155 < 156*3 78*3 39*3 = Bb117
      5*39*3=3*195 < 196*3 98*3 49*3 = d147.
      rel:
      D 148/147 F# (1/9+85)/(84+1/9) Bb 196/195 D
      D ~ 11.4c F# ~ 20.5 cents Bb ~ 8.86cents D

      3: A > C# > F > A.
      abs:
      AA55. A110 < 111 = 37*3
      5*111= c#"555 = 5*111 < 112*5 56*5 28*5 14*5 7*5
      5*35 = f175 < 176 88 44 22 11
      5*11 = AA55.
      rel:
      A 111/110 C# 112/111 F 176/175 A ; with all 3 factors superparticular
      A ~ 15.7c C# ~ 15.5c F ~ 9.86c A

      4: E > G#> C > E.
      abs:
      e165. < 166 83
      5*83 = 415 < g#'416 g#208 G#104 GG#52 GGG#26 GGGG#13 §§
      5*13 = 65 130 < c131 < 132 66 33
      5*33 = e165.
      rel:
      E (6/7+118)/(117+6/7) G# 131/130 C 132/131 E
      E ~ 14.6 cents ~ G# ~ 13.3 cents C ~ 13.2c E
      §§ GGGG# 13 Hz has negative "midi"-index G#_-1,
      which midi-keyboard supports negative key indices?


      Summary:
      3rds martix in "Cents"
      5ths in top>down order
      3rds in left>right direction respectively:

      1: G 14.1 B_ 18.1 Eb 8.86 G
      2: D 11.4 F# 20.5 Bb 8.86 D
      3: A 15.7 C# 15.5 F_ 9.86 A
      4: E 14.6 G# 13.3 C_ 13.2 E

      Conversely "ET" detunes all 3rds about the same amount:
      (128/125)^(1/3) = ~13.7Cents or ~127/126,
      Attend that: the "septenarius" fits therefore better than ET to
      horns and trumpets in Eb,Bb & F, with inherent natural
      3rds Eb>G, Bb>D, & F>A that turn out less than 10Cents out of tune
      in the septenarius case.

      > (cf. 12ET frequencies: 261.6, 277.2, 293.7, 311.1, 329.6, 349.2,
      > 370.0, 392.0, 415.3, 440.0, 466.2, 493.9 ...)

      In the "ET" case, it is difficult to resolve the
      septenarian root-factors above alike:
      11,13,31,37 & 83 below the well known 3,5 & 7 limits.
      >
      > Can one use the nice ratio 63/50 = 1.26 to build a 'septenarian' >near-
      > equal tuning?
      on the one hand is:
      (63/50)(4/5)=126/125
      but but on the other side
      the diesis 128/125=(128/127)(127/126)(126/125)
      contains 3 factors.
      hence:
      (63/50)^3 = 2.000376... > 2/1
      overstretched octave
      or as superparticular ratio:
      ((63/50)^3)/2= 250047/250000=(7/47+5320)/(5319+7/47)
      ~1/2 per mille
      but a better approximation of the octave delivers 127/126
      the factor in the middle:
      ((5 / 4) * (127 / 126))^3 = ~1.99999802............




      > eg Eb-G = 150:189 ...
      > via Eb150 Bb225 (675) F337 (1011) C505 (504) G378=189
      >
      > then continue:
      > ... (567) D283 (849) A424=212 (636) E635 (634) B951 (2853/2848)
      > F#356=178 C#267 (801) G#400 Eb300
      >
      > seems to work nicely at late Baroque pitch levels - only three pure
      > fifths between Eb-Bb, G#-Eb, F#-C#.
      >
      that is expanded:
      A 424 212
      3A636 > E635 > 634 317
      B951 > 950 475
      3*475=1425 > F#1424 712 356 178 89
      C# 267
      801 > G# 800 400 200 100 50 25 Werckmeister's tief-Cammerthon 400Hz
      Eb 75
      Bb 225
      675 > F 674 337
      1011 > C 1050 505 > 504 252 126 63
      G 189
      567 > D 566 283
      849 > A 848 424

      recombining that 5ths-circle in ascending ordered pitches yields:
      C 252.5 Hz middle_C
      C#267
      D 283
      Eb300
      E 317.5 or better 317?
      F 337
      F#356
      G 378
      G#400 Beekman's, Descartes's, Mersenne's & Sauveur's standard-pitch
      A 424
      Bb450
      B 475.5 or better 475?
      C'505

      T.D. remarked already in his numbers inbetween:

      >B951 (2853/2848)
      > F#356

      that there appears an unsatisfactory irregular gap:
      of 2853/2848 = 570.6/569.6 = (951/950)(1425/1424)
      induced by the choice of
      E 635 > 634 317 instead
      635 > E 634 317
      That results in the above none-integral superparticular ratio bug.

      Hence i do suggest to replace
      by the tiny changes
      1: E 635-->>>634
      2: B 951-->>>950
      in order to fix the bug.

      so that now all 5th-tempering steps become integral superparticular
      ratios, without any exception:

      A 424 212 106
      3A=318 E 317 instead formerly 317.5
      3E=951 B 950 475 instead formerly 951 475.5
      3B=1425 F# 1424 712 356 178 89
      &ct.
      the rest of the circle remains unchanged.
      Is that ok?


      Analysis of the:
      3rds sharpness, -how much wider than 5/4-
      per diesis subpartition into superparticular factors,
      so that the product of 3 tempered 5ths results an octave
      in each of the 4 blocks:

      1: G > B > Eb > G.
      abs:
      G378. 189 > 190 95
      5*95 = B 475 < 480 240 120 60 30 15
      5*15 = Eb75
      5*75 = 3*125 < 126*3 = G378.
      rel. 2^7/5^3=128/125=
      G 190/189 B 160/159 Eb 126/125 G remember (63/50)(4/5)=126/125
      ?or formerly in the original version:
      ?G378. 189 > 190 95
      ?5*95 = 475 950 < B951 < 960 480 240 120 60 30 15
      ?......
      ?rel. 2^7/5^3=128/125=
      ?G (190/189)(951/950) B 320/317=(2/3+106)/(105+2/3) Eb 126/125 G
      That appears i.m.o. much more complicated than my suggested change.

      2: D > F# > Bb > D.
      abs:
      D283. < 284 142 71
      5* 71 = 355 < F#356 178 89 < 90 45
      5* 45 = Bb225 < 226 113
      5*113 = 565 < D556 283.
      rel. 128/125=
      D (284/283)(356/355) F# 90/89 Bb (226/225)(556/565) D

      3: A > C# > F > A.
      abs:
      A424. 212 106 53
      5* 53 = 265 < C#267 < 268 134 67
      5* 67 = 335 < F 337 < 338 169
      5*169 = 845 < A 848 424.
      rel: 128/125=
      A 133.5/123.5 C# (268/267)(168.5/166.5) F >>>
      >>> F (338/337)((2/3+282)/(281+2/3)) A

      4: E > G# > C > E.
      E 317. < 320 160 80 40 20
      5* 20 = G#100 < 101
      5*101 = C 505 < 506 253
      5*253 = 1265 < E 1268 634 317.
      rel: 128/125=
      E (2/3+106)/(105+2/3) G# 101/100 C (506/505)/(422.666.../421.666...) E
      ?or formerly
      ?E 635? > 640 320 .....
      ?....&ct. alike above...
      ?....
      ?5*253 =1265 < 1270 635?

      try to find out similar improvements in order to reduce the ratios
      to less complicated proportions

      have a lot of fun in whatever tuning you do prefer
      A.S.
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