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Re: Lehman tuning/Divinci Code

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  • friederich_stellwagen
    Hi ... Of course there have been musicologists who have also made wrong claims etc. etc. Happens in all science and scholarship. No big deal, I d think. Sh...
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 12, 2006
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      Hi

      --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

      > It seems silly that Bradley's work was published. Musicologists
      > have been failing music and the people making music for a very
      > long time. There are so many examples to name. However, there
      > are plenty of other fields that have been as bad, or worse.

      Of course there have been musicologists who have also made wrong
      claims etc. etc. Happens in all science and scholarship. No big deal,
      I'd think. Sh... happens
      One should not forget, however, that musicology has provided us with a
      significantly growing body of knowledge. And that is by far the larger
      part.


      > That said, the real scandal is not Bradley's attempt to get legs
      > for his autochtonous deduction(s), but that an "august" body
      > deigned to print them...in England.

      > A thank you to Ibo Ortgies for leading a charge, though damage
      > has already been done. There were so many holes in Lehman's
      > assertions that one must wonder "why" it was published, and
      > under peer review!

      > One thing that has become clear is that musicologists are the ones
      > that believe Johann Sebastian Bach is in equal temperament,

      No, in general the musicologist in the field are of the opinion that
      nothing precise can be said about Bach's temperament preferences,
      except that he from a relative early age seems to have preferred some
      (unspecifiable) well-temperament.
      Equal temperament (in fact, the practical approach of the theoretical
      modal) might have been among the options, and if so, may be later in
      his life - we don't know for sure.

      A problem is, however, when musicians try to be scholars or
      scientists, without sufficiently being trained in using thee proper
      "tools", without being critical to speculation and hypothesis, and
      often giving in to the fallacy of sentimens, that emotional value can
      serve as an argument, as evidence, more than a argument from reason

      "Sentimens is a clever fallacy. Its idiotic claim, that emotion
      is a better guide, is most alluring to an intelligent audience.
      Intelligent people are often afraid of being thought rather
      cold because they use reason so much. They do not want to appear
      to be emotionally deficient, and are easy prey to a speaker
      who assures them that they are just as sensitive, loving
      and compassionate as the next person, who is also a bit of a
      bore. This permits them the delusion that they are welcome into
      the common fold, instead of remaining aloof from it. They happily
      abandon reason as the price of their admission ticket to the
      human race.

      An individual can be ensnared with sentimens, and led to drop
      a carefully thought-out position after being assured that he or
      she cares just as much about humanity as the rest of us. A denial
      would hardly count as a good response. A crowd is even easier
      to lead by the nose on a sentimental string. I have rarely seen
      an international gathering which did not give a standing ovation
      to any gaga idiot who urged them to forget reason and
      concentrate on loving each other."

      From: Madsen Pirie: "How to Win Every Argument: The Use and
      Abuse of Logic" ISBN: 0826490069


      > based on the plentitude of such writers. Players are different,
      > going by our ears, when said ears are plugged into logic.

      It is "cold" reason, logic and application of scholarly methods which
      tells us, that Lehman's claim is an unsubstantiated speculation -
      whether we like his temperament, regard it as useful, or not.


      > Bradley is really a player who dabbled and got caught in the
      > creative territory, but who severed his logic.


      Kind regards

      Ibo Ortgies
    • Tom Dent
      Hi - Anyone interested in Werckmeister s 1698 keyboard tuning instructions? Says quite explicitly (for one thing) that the fifths are to be tempered rather
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 12, 2006
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        Hi - Anyone interested in Werckmeister's 1698 keyboard tuning
        instructions?

        Says quite explicitly (for one thing) that the fifths are to be
        tempered rather less than 1/4 comma.

        Here:

        http://harpsichords.pbwiki.com/Tuning

        now in German, but maybe it can get translated one day.

        ~~~T~~~


        --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
        >
        > Musicologists have been failing music and the people making music
        for a very long time. There are so many examples to name. (...)
      • Cris Forster
        ... already been done. There were so many holes in Lehman s assertions that one must wonder why it was published, and under peer review! In the arts, as
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 12, 2006
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          --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
          > A thank you to Ibo Ortgies for leading a charge, though damage has
          already been done. There were so many holes in Lehman's assertions
          that one must wonder "why" it was published, and under peer review!

          In the arts, as opposed to the sciences, discoveries are not subject
          to review.

          Cris Forster, Music Director
          www.chrysalis-foundation.org
        • Tom Dent
          ... equal temperament, You know, quite a few recordings have been made with ET too, I wouldn t call for example Edwin Fischer a musicologist... Still believe
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 13, 2006
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            --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
            >
            > musicologists are the ones that believe Johann Sebastian Bach is in
            equal temperament,


            You know, quite a few recordings have been made with ET too, I
            wouldn't call for example Edwin Fischer a musicologist...

            Still believe Bach goes with 100% Werckmeister-Three and nothing else?
            That, if you like, is the modern 'historical' orthodoxy, not ET.

            ~~~T~~~
          • friederich_stellwagen
            ... [...] ... I agree with Thomas - all theoretical (historoical or modern) temperament models designs have never been shown to be related to Bach. Closest
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 13, 2006
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              --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
              > >
              > > musicologists are the ones that believe Johann Sebastian Bach is in
              > equal temperament,
              [...]
              > Still believe Bach goes with 100% Werckmeister-Three and nothing else?
              > That, if you like, is the modern 'historical' orthodoxy, not ET.

              > ~~~T~~~


              I agree with Thomas - all theoretical (historoical or modern)
              temperament models designs have never been shown to be related to
              Bach. Closest might have been Neidhardt, but even that connection is
              also not strong enough and the famous quote from after Bach's death by
              his son-in-law Altnickol (about the temperament of the
              Hildebrandt-organ in Naumburg, St. Wenzel) allows such a broad margin
              of interpretations that it can't pass mere speculation.

              Until today there is not a single piece of evidence, that allows us to
              state which temperament Bach might have preferred at any time. This is
              also the view hold within Bach-scholarship.


              Kind regards

              Ibo
            • friederich_stellwagen
              ... Hi, in the arts yes, but here we are dealing with questions of history and the (appropriate) methods of historical research, i.e. methods accepted within
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 13, 2006
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                --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@...> wrote:

                >> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:

                >> A thank you to Ibo Ortgies for leading a charge, though damage has
                >> already been done. There were so many holes in Lehman's assertions
                >> that one must wonder "why" it was published, and under peer review!

                > In the arts, as opposed to the sciences, discoveries are not subject
                > to review.

                > Cris Forster, Music Director
                > www.chrysalis-foundation.org


                Hi,

                in the arts yes,
                but here we are dealing with questions of history and the
                (appropriate) methods of historical research, i.e. methods accepted
                within the scholarly/scientific community.

                Historical information can then be applied in arts - and it is free
                for the artist to make an informed choice.


                And in view of the Lehman-speculation one might have a look to the
                link at the end of the following posting:
                http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0611&L=hpschd-l&D=0&O=D&T=0&P=15635

                Kind regards

                Ibo Ortgies
              • threesixesinarow
                ... Young s reproduced there looks different in original context, with pictures and stuff, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55895x/f164.table ( Outlines
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 13, 2006
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                  --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi - Anyone interested in Werckmeister's 1698 keyboard tuning
                  > instructions?
                  >
                  > Says quite explicitly (for one thing) that the fifths are to be
                  > tempered rather less than 1/4 comma.
                  >
                  > Here:
                  >
                  > http://harpsichords.pbwiki.com/Tuning

                  Young's reproduced there looks different in original context, with
                  pictures and stuff,

                  http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k55895x/f164.table

                  ("Outlines of Experiments and Inquiries respecting Sound and Light"
                  page 106, part xvi - "Of the temperament of musical intervals" p.143;
                  the 1788 volume isn't listed there, though...)

                  Clark

                  > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Musicologists have been failing music and the people making music
                  > for a very long time. There are so many examples to name. (...)
                  >
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