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Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

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  • Ronnie L. Darby
    ... From: Sol To: tt-forum@egroups.com Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2000
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sol
      Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 11:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

      <snip>The binding agreement which will be signed with the PI (and which I assume you want me to do, and which I can write up by the next Board meeting, if you like) - will take care of some of that, but not all, I'm afraid. 
      <snip>
       
      I've been waiting for you to step into this discussion, and your thoughts appear wise indeed.  And yes, I've personally been assuming you would work on this "contract". 
       
      The discussion so far has been good and enlightening and I feel shouldn't be rushed just to be available at the next board meeting ... we still have some time before the "real" money starts to flow in, much less till we have PI's ready to take responsibility for projects.
       
      My purpose in drafting the policies so far has been to generate discussion and bring to light many points-of-view.  Likewise, a draft "binding agreement" will, hopefully, encourage even more discussion.
       
      In the last several years I have represented several friends with "full Power of Attorney" in civil cases, where they had no funds to pay a real lawyer and free legal assistance wasn't available, three of which were divorce cases but didn't involve any children.  Happily, all these cases were settled in favor of my friends.  I know, however, when I'm "in over my head" and just tonight withdrew from acting in this capacity when complications in a land purchase became more than I felt comfortable with.  That is how I feel about the issues being discussed here, and your assistance is most valuable; even if we can arrive at a point that is reasonably "in the ball park."  If a practicing attorney is then still needed we will be that much further ahead, and the cost to the Inc. will be that much less.
       
      So, again, my personal "thanks" for joining the discussion.
       
      Ron
       
       

      Ron Darby
      Treasurer, Troubled Times, Inc.
      Principal Investigator, GCCS Project
      WB5KAN
      ICQ: 32759238
      Personal ICQ World Wide Pager address is:
      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/32759238
       
      ** Pain and suffering is inevitable but misery is optional.**
    • Mary
      The proposed grant policy does not state specifically a maximum price limit for projects. What if....we put a dollar limit on the project,,,,,say....$3,000 us
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2000
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        The proposed grant policy does not state specifically a maximum price limit for projects.  What if....we put a dollar limit on the project,,,,,say....$3,000 us dollars and then state that any project to exceed this amount be done/erected/created at the TT Headquarters location.    A clause could be added that if the project ran over it must be reviewed by the board.  At this point the board would have the option of inspecting the project on site and extending more money.  We may save money by having it done professionally and therefore the cost, and more importantly, the project is not at risk.
        Mary
          
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sol
        Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:26 PM
        Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

         
         
        Hello friends, I'm sorry to be so late in offering some thoughts on this (you can probably see that my other posts are kind of 'lighter').
        Once again, I'll have to draw this out a bit.
         
        First, on the issue of the on-site visits. This is a very complex and emotional issue, perhaps touching at the heart of what we're doing here. I'll say first that I agree that if a necessity exists to oversee the projects (which is obvious) - then on-site inspections are the best method available for preventing abuse of funds. That is how things are done in today's business world and it's a succesful  model which has been proven to work, but the question is whether we want to be entirely like that in this respect, because there are a couple of very important subjects to consider.
         
        There's your basic privacy issues which Ron raises, which have to be addressed. Verifying prices and receipts in a neighborhood store, is not the same as actually asking the neighbors personal questions and barging into someone's house. I think each one of us is paranoid enough already, without having to 'sick' private investigators on us. I know I wouldnt' want it, myself, and there's a  likelyhood that the possibility of this kind of secret 'hunt' may cause people to refrain from taking on projects.
         
        More importantly, there's the very vital issue of trust, as Mary says. I think that even a person who has been betrayed before should not loose the basic trust in the good intentions of all. And even if the intentions only start out as being good. I'm only saying this because I feel there's not enough trust to go around in the world as it is, so maybe we should be an example of trust as well, saying as how we want to educate the public and all.
         
        So what I think should be done, is to create a set of very special circumstances in which it would be possible for the entire Board to decide to have an on-site inspection. And if such an inspection is decided upon - clear guidelines will be exist about how and by whom it should be done (taking everything into account.)
         
        This would mean that the on-site inspections are not ordinarily done, but may be used as a 'final measure' in the event the Board is convinced that funds are being squandered. It's possible to demand stringent reports and methods of proof before such a measure is implemented. We can even set up a 'special majority' for a vote like this, meaning a majority of all Board members, and not just those present at any given meeting, for instance. I could put together some guidelines for this, if it's agreed upon. I feel that this may be a good compromise between these two absolutely true but basically opposing views.
         
        The second, much less important but nonetheless necessary point, is about the return of assets in the event of 'agent trouble' (as they call it in the sales world... yuk.) The binding agreement which will be signed with the PI (and which I assume you want me to do, and which I can write up by the next Board meeting, if you like) - will take care of some of that, but not all, I'm afraid. 
        Divorce proceedings tend to get more complicated than that, and the 'fruits of labor' (meaning the results of the project) which were achieved by one of the spouses - legally belong as much to the both of them together as the house they bought or the money made from a business in which only one of them works. 
         
        This is some serious goobledegook, as far as I'm concerned, but Mary did ask, remember. Now, spouses can prevent  future financial arguments between themselves by drawing up these various monetary agreements together. I myself am against a husband and a wife having any kinds of written agreements between them. Just makes the whole thing too official, you know. Can we demand such a thing of our future project leaders? Often if one spouse just raises the subject of a financial agreement, it's enough to start an endless fight. Is it really necessary, I ask?
         
        Another thing, any kind of foreclosure which a PI might get imposed on his private assets would include anything he has in his house, and if he bought equipment from tt-inc funds - that doesn't worry the foreclosure owner. The rule is that foreclosure supercedes any private agreement the holder of the equipment may have with whomever, unless he has direct proof that it's not his at all but borrowed or rented. It's hard to foresee a thing like this in advance, because someone could be doing well and starting a project, and suddenly he's in the sticks because he was fired from his job and can't find another one. The banks close in. The old story.
         
        There is one way to get around that, which is have the PI actually register an official Lien (like a mortgage but on an object) on any piece of really costly equipment which he buys with project money. This would probably involve additional lawyer and registration fees, probably different for each state. But this doesn't solve the problem with the 'smaller' stuff, and the even more important project results. However, it may cover things like actual buildings and structures (someone local would have to check the laws on that.)s
         
        Anyhow, I'm back to the issue of trust, it seems. There's just no sure way to guard oneself entirely against misfortune or malice. I will try to include as much in that agreement with the PI as would place that person in a position of the highest responsibility for the project. Then this person has to try to do his best. I don't think we can ask for anything else. I'll put some more thought into this, and I definitely need some input on the above.
         
        Sol
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
      • Educate-Yourself
        Hello List, I m reading interesting thoughts and observations concerning this topic and I ve got a couple of my own to add to the mix: Personally, I find these
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2000
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          Hello List,
           
          I'm reading interesting thoughts and observations concerning this topic and I've got a couple of my own to add to the mix:
           
          Personally, I find these grant money  "rules" so confining and regimented, that I would rather bypass the process entirely. Yes, I could purchase equipment and materials sooner if I had more cash available, but I wouldn't want to be under the gun of producing x,y,z results in 90 days or whatever the deal is.
           
          If I had someone who believed in my work and wanted to help me financially and just see what comes about, OK fine. We call those sort of people Angels and many positive developments have come about from such an arrangement (and many busts too, to be sure).  But the filing of progress reports, demonstrating output in so many days, or any other bureaucratic oversight rules, regs, or conditions are a total turn off, for me at least.
           
          I'm doing research on a number of fronts at the same time: free energy, alt health, and survival tools. When I have something of substance to tell the world about, I'll just post it on my web site and let you know. Take it  or leave it, it's there if you want to look into it.
           
          I find this sort of monitoring/oversight rules and regulations to be inimical to the creative process. Of course, that's merely my opinion; Just offered as such.
           
          Educate-Yourself 
           
           
           
           
            
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mary <nox0025@...>
          To: tt-forum@egroups.com <tt-forum@egroups.com>
          Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

           
        • Mary
          You have every right to produce and post any and all projects you deem important. It is my understanding that TT has a specific list of projects that need to
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2000
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            You have every right to produce and post any and all projects you deem important.  It is my understanding that TT has a specific list of projects that need to be developed.  It is with this in mind that the funding is being written.
            TT has had 0 results in solicitating people to do specific projects.  Each one of us has a talent that we can contribute and it is hoped that those talents are put to use on TT.  I have read tons of your postings and find that you are very STO.  Keep doing what you are doing!
            Mary
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

            Hello List,
             
            I'm reading interesting thoughts and observations concerning this topic and I've got a couple of my own to add to the mix:
             
            Personally, I find these grant money  "rules" so confining and regimented, that I would rather bypass the process entirely. Yes, I could purchase equipment and materials sooner if I had more cash available, but I wouldn't want to be under the gun of producing x,y,z results in 90 days or whatever the deal is.
             
            If I had someone who believed in my work and wanted to help me financially and just see what comes about, OK fine. We call those sort of people Angels and many positive developments have come about from such an arrangement (and many busts too, to be sure).  But the filing of progress reports, demonstrating output in so many days, or any other bureaucratic oversight rules, regs, or conditions are a total turn off, for me at least.
             
            I'm doing research on a number of fronts at the same time: free energy, alt health, and survival tools. When I have something of substance to tell the world about, I'll just post it on my web site and let you know. Take it  or leave it, it's there if you want to look into it.
             
            I find this sort of monitoring/oversight rules and regulations to be inimical to the creative process. Of course, that's merely my opinion; Just offered as such.
             
            Educate-Yourself 
             
             
             
             
              
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mary <nox0025@...>
            To: tt-forum@egroups.com <tt-forum@egroups.com>
            Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:26 AM
            Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

             
          • Ronnie L. Darby
            What you are suggesting as your preferred mode of work is just what the TT Membership Group is all about. Volunteer your skills and time and money and produce
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 2, 2000
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              What you are suggesting as your preferred mode of work is just what the TT Membership Group is all about.  Volunteer your skills and time and money and produce something of value to the public.
               
              TT Inc., however, is something else entirely.  It is a Public Benefit Corporation with a specific agenda and donors of money to see that agenda accomplished.  TT Inc. must operate by rules and Management to insure that the donors money is expended in a predictable way with some expectation of a predictable outcome within a predictable timeframe.  This is dictated by Law, and as the TT Inc. Headquarters is located in the State of Wisconsin, is carefully reviewed and regulated by the Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing, for the specific purpose of protecting those making charitable contributions.
               
              This is why Troubled Times, the Group, and Troubled Times Inc. are separate entities.  The only reason that TT Inc. related discussions are found on tt-forum is that it is this group who is most likely to be interested in pursuing the Projects to be funded by TT Inc.
               
              Ron

              Ron Darby
              Treasurer, Troubled Times, Inc.
              Principal Investigator, GCCS Project
              WB5KAN
              ICQ: 32759238
              Personal ICQ World Wide Pager address is:
              http://wwp.mirabilis.com/32759238
               
              ** Pain and suffering is inevitable but misery is optional.**
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 11:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

              Hello List,
               
              I'm reading interesting thoughts and observations concerning this topic and I've got a couple of my own to add to the mix:
               
              Personally, I find these grant money  "rules" so confining and regimented, that I would rather bypass the process entirely. Yes, I could purchase equipment and materials sooner if I had more cash available, but I wouldn't want to be under the gun of producing x,y,z results in 90 days or whatever the deal is.
               
              If I had someone who believed in my work and wanted to help me financially and just see what comes about, OK fine. We call those sort of people Angels and many positive developments have come about from such an arrangement (and many busts too, to be sure).  But the filing of progress reports, demonstrating output in so many days, or any other bureaucratic oversight rules, regs, or conditions are a total turn off, for me at least.
               
              I'm doing research on a number of fronts at the same time: free energy, alt health, and survival tools. When I have something of substance to tell the world about, I'll just post it on my web site and let you know. Take it  or leave it, it's there if you want to look into it.
               
              I find this sort of monitoring/oversight rules and regulations to be inimical to the creative process. Of course, that's merely my opinion; Just offered as such.
               
              Educate-Yourself 
               
               
               
               
                
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mary <nox0025@...>
              To: tt-forum@egroups.com <tt-forum@egroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [tt-forum] TT Inc. Proposed Grant Policy - the issue of trust

               
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