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Re: State of the discussion of TSCII Tamil character names

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  • Kalyanasundaram K
    Dear Mani: ... Has there been any progress in your attempts to contact Tamil scholars in Tamilnadu? Can you give us some indications on if and how we should
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 2, 2005
      Dear Mani:

      On May 26, 2005 6:46 pm Mani Manivannan wrote:

      > > >There is nothing wrong with giving the scholars a time frame to
      > > >respond. It simply cannot be hours or days.
      > >
      > > I did not say hours or days, but do specify a time frame.
      > > Time frames are a necessary part of the process!
      >
      > I understand. By June 6, I'd be able to assess the responsiveness
      > of the Tamil scholars to e-mail communication. By then, I'd be
      > able to give a better time frame to complete the process.

      Has there been any progress in your attempts to contact Tamil
      scholars in Tamilnadu? Can you give us some indications on
      if and how we should proceed now?

      anbudan
      Kalyan
    • Ravi K
      ... thanks kalyan for bringing it up. I am extremely disappointed at what has transpired! ... Regards, Ravindran K. Paul http://www.thunaivan.com
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 2, 2005
        At 09:57 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:

        >Dear Mani:
        >
        >On May 26, 2005 6:46 pm Mani Manivannan wrote:
        >
        > > > >There is nothing wrong with giving the scholars a time frame to
        > > > >respond. It simply cannot be hours or days.
        > > >
        > > > I did not say hours or days, but do specify a time frame.
        > > > Time frames are a necessary part of the process!
        > >
        > > I understand. By June 6, I'd be able to assess the responsiveness
        > > of the Tamil scholars to e-mail communication. By then, I'd be
        > > able to give a better time frame to complete the process.
        >
        >Has there been any progress in your attempts to contact Tamil
        >scholars in Tamilnadu? Can you give us some indications on
        >if and how we should proceed now?

        thanks kalyan for bringing it up.

        I am extremely disappointed at what has transpired!

        >anbudan
        >Kalyan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        Regards,

        Ravindran K. Paul
        http://www.thunaivan.com
      • Mani M. Manivannan
        Dear Kalyan, I got the following e-mail on June 9th from Tamil Virtual University director Dr. Sankaranarayanan. I also met Prof. V. C. K. during the Dallas
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 3, 2005
          Dear Kalyan,

          I got the following e-mail on June 9th from Tamil Virtual University
          director Dr. Sankaranarayanan. I also met Prof. V. C. K. during the Dallas
          Tamil conference and Washington kuRaL conferences. He assured me that the
          TVU team is working on making a formal recommendation and that it includes
          members from the New Madras University Tamil Lexicon committee. I didn't
          ask for the list of members. He asked me to give them time to come back
          with an official recommendation and recommended that we consider citing
          that document in our standardization efforts. He should be back in India by
          now. I intend to get back to him later this week to see where they are at.

          Regards,

          Mani M. Manivannan

          ++++++++++++++++ QUOTE BEGINS +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

          ---------- Forwarded message ----------
          From: Director, Tamil Virtual University <sankar@...>
          Date: Jun 9, 2005 2:21 AM
          Subject: Tamil character - reg
          To: mmanivannan@...
          Cc: vck99@...

          Sir,

          I am sending this reply on behalf of Prof.V.C.Kulandaiswamy, our Chairman,
          Tamil Virtual University Society. The suggestions proposed by you as
          generally acceptable to him. However he has asked me to constitute a small
          committee and discuss with them to get their feed back.

          Accordingly, I will arrange for a discussion and give the final out-come to
          you as our recommendations.

          With regards,

          Yours sincerely,

          (V.SANKARANARAYANAN)
          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ QUOTE ENDS +++++++++++++++++++++++


          --- In tscii@yahoogroups.com, "Kalyanasundaram K" <kalyan.geo@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Mani:
          >
          > On May 26, 2005 6:46 pm Mani Manivannan wrote:
          >
          > > > >There is nothing wrong with giving the scholars a time frame to
          > > > >respond. It simply cannot be hours or days.
          > > >
          > > > I did not say hours or days, but do specify a time frame.
          > > > Time frames are a necessary part of the process!
          > >
          > > I understand. By June 6, I'd be able to assess the responsiveness
          > > of the Tamil scholars to e-mail communication. By then, I'd be
          > > able to give a better time frame to complete the process.
          >
          > Has there been any progress in your attempts to contact Tamil
          > scholars in Tamilnadu? Can you give us some indications on
          > if and how we should proceed now?
          >
          > anbudan
          > Kalyan
        • Venkatram Shrinivas.
          Dear Thiru Manivannan It is my absolutely sincere desire not to distract and waste your precious times but only keep viewing, (to use your own expression as a
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 5, 2005
            Dear Thiru Manivannan

            It is my absolutely sincere desire not to distract and waste your precious times but only keep viewing, (to use your own expression as a “back bencher”, but as a supportive one), the exchange of correspondence that is continuing on a vital matter which is very dear to TSCII founders, and equally so, to all Tamil Lovers like me.

            Once in a while I cannot resist my emotional urge to express my great appreciation of your and Thiru Kalyanasundaram’s untiring, indefatigable and dedicated efforts, all the time facing all types of challenges (which also included by what appeared to my simple mind, as unnecessary and time-wasting objections). They say, “Patience is the Mother of all Virtues”. That is what both you gentlemen have. I am sure that you will achieve success in the near future.

            I am happy to note that important personages from The Tamilnadu Government have evinced interest and indicated willingness for co-operation.

            God Bless You Both.

            (Of course there will be some among the crowd to stand up and shout that God is there to Bless us all!)

            V.Shrinivas


            "Mani M. Manivannan" <mani_m_manivannan@...> wrote:Dear Kalyan,

            I got the following e-mail on June 9th from Tamil Virtual University
            director Dr. Sankaranarayanan. I also met Prof. V. C. K. during the Dallas
            Tamil conference and Washington kuRaL conferences. He assured me that the
            TVU team is working on making a formal recommendation and that it includes
            members from the New Madras University Tamil Lexicon committee. I didn't
            ask for the list of members. He asked me to give them time to come back
            with an official recommendation and recommended that we consider citing
            that document in our standardization efforts. He should be back in India by
            now. I intend to get back to him later this week to see where they are at.

            Regards,

            Mani M. Manivannan

            ++++++++++++++++ QUOTE BEGINS +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            ---------- Forwarded message ----------
            From: Director, Tamil Virtual University <sankar@...>
            Date: Jun 9, 2005 2:21 AM
            Subject: Tamil character - reg
            To: mmanivannan@...
            Cc: vck99@...

            Sir,

            I am sending this reply on behalf of Prof.V.C.Kulandaiswamy, our Chairman,
            Tamil Virtual University Society. The suggestions proposed by you as
            generally acceptable to him. However he has asked me to constitute a small
            committee and discuss with them to get their feed back.

            Accordingly, I will arrange for a discussion and give the final out-come to
            you as our recommendations.

            With regards,

            Yours sincerely,

            (V.SANKARANARAYANAN)
            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ QUOTE ENDS +++++++++++++++++++++++


            --- In tscii@yahoogroups.com, "Kalyanasundaram K" <kalyan.geo@y...> wrote:
            > Dear Mani:
            >
            > On May 26, 2005 6:46 pm Mani Manivannan wrote:
            >
            > > > >There is nothing wrong with giving the scholars a time frame to
            > > > >respond. It simply cannot be hours or days.
            > > >
            > > > I did not say hours or days, but do specify a time frame.
            > > > Time frames are a necessary part of the process!
            > >
            > > I understand. By June 6, I'd be able to assess the responsiveness
            > > of the Tamil scholars to e-mail communication. By then, I'd be
            > > able to give a better time frame to complete the process.
            >
            > Has there been any progress in your attempts to contact Tamil
            > scholars in Tamilnadu? Can you give us some indications on
            > if and how we should proceed now?
            >
            > anbudan
            > Kalyan





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          • Kalyanasundaram K
            Dear Mani and friends: One thing I have been insisting all along to our friends in Tamilnadu is this: In the IT arena, standards are introduced via
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 5, 2006
              Dear Mani and friends:

              One thing I have been insisting all along to our friends in
              Tamilnadu is this: In the IT arena, standards are introduced via
              well-established international procedures/protocols (open list
              discussions to work out a consensus followed by wide publication
              of the specifications along with tools to test the standard.
              process run at least for 6 months to guage public acceptance)
              and registration procedures followed afterwards through
              standardisation agencies like IETF. IT-MNCs take only such
              IETF-vetted standards seriously for implementation in their
              products. Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
              but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)

              Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.
              Sadly TSCII has also been branded as "hacked" encoding because
              it did not go through the final step, namely IETF registration.
              This is the reason why I started this thread nearly 15 months ago.
              Many non-Tamil software developers keep asking me about lack of
              formal registration of TSCII (for that matter any encoding for
              Tamil) with IETF. I have no clean answers to give.

              Unfortunately after initial excitements, the process started here
              has been nearly stalled, because of the lack of progress in your
              efforts to get a set of "authentic" Tamil-centric names for the
              characters for inclusion in the proposal to be sent to IETF.

              It was more than a year ago that you wrote ((your email of
              26 May 2005 reproduced below) to say that you will contact
              the Tamil Language scholars of Tamilnadu and get peer-review
              of proposed character names for use in TSCII specifications.

              Can you please make use of your current stay in Tamilnadu to
              advance a bit on this front? I am eagerly looking forward to the
              details of 16-bit encoding TANE in a week's time. If that specs
              still lacks the kind of information that we have been searching
              in vain for more than a year, can we assume that even Tamilnadu
              Govt is not bothered about inclusion of such Tamil-centric names
              for characters when they propose new font encoding standards?

              I still stand by my earlier views, viz., that inclusion of Tamil-
              centric names in font specs is desirable but not absolutely essential.
              Losses are lot more in failing to have an established encoding
              formally registered. I am still at a loss to understand why we are
              insisting on these Tamil centric names while all our search till
              date showed that none of the Tamil teaching curriculam within
              India and outside do not care about them and even Tamil Scholars
              are at a loss to recall them even after weeks of soul searching.

              anbudan
              Kalyan
              --

              "Mani M. Manivannan" <mani_m_manivannan@...> wrote on 26 May 2005:
              >
              > Dear Kavi,
              >
              > > Endorsement by Tamil Scholars is different from
              > > endorsement by Tamil Language Scholars.
              >
              > Agreed. I am interested in the endorsement by Tamil Language
              > Scholars.
              >
              > > Apart from getting personal references from "Tamil
              > > Language Scholars". It would be a better option if
              > > some volunteer from Tamil Nadu present these options
              > > in meetings held atleast at couple of prominent Tamil
              > > research institutes such as Tamil University, IITS,
              > > Chennai University and Madurai Kamaraj University.
              >
              > I don't think one has to have a meeting to discuss this.
              > I have already contacted Prof. Jayadevan of Madras University
              > (Chennai-p-palkalai). IITS, Tamil University, MKU, Annamalai U.,
              > are good references. But we don't need to poll all the
              > universities or all the Tamil language scholars. We
              > can apply the usual standard for academic journal publications.
              > They consult a panel of referees and the process known as the
              > "peer review" has been the gold standard for academic publication
              > for a few centuries. Peer review helps improve the quality of
              > work that is being reviewed. But if the review panel is very
              > large, it becomes less efficient.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Mani M. Manivannan
              >
            • ashok kumar
              dear friends if there is any tool to convert tamil pdf to document in the field there is some tool for english pdf to doc. conversion but that same tool did
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                dear friends
                if there is any tool to convert tamil pdf to document
                in the field there is some tool for english pdf to
                doc. conversion
                but that same tool did not work with tamil language
                so pls. tell me some good tools to convert tamil pdf
                to documaent
                Ashok
              • Ravi K
                ... Dear Kalyan Thank you for bringing this up. I too am extremely disappointed by what has transpired. If even the so called englightened ones can t
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                  At 02:54 PM 9/6/2006, Kalyanasundaram K wrote:

                  >Dear Mani and friends:

                  Dear Kalyan

                  Thank you for bringing this up. I too am extremely disappointed by
                  what has transpired. If even the so called "englightened ones" can't
                  complete such a simple task, I wonder what hope is there. Until we
                  learn to argue in public of our differing opinions we really won't
                  achieve much.

                  Regards,

                  Ravindran K. Paul
                  http://www.thunaivan.com


                  >One thing I have been insisting all along to our friends in
                  >Tamilnadu is this: In the IT arena, standards are introduced via
                  >well-established international procedures/protocols (open list
                  >discussions to work out a consensus followed by wide publication
                  >of the specifications along with tools to test the standard.
                  >process run at least for 6 months to guage public acceptance)
                  >and registration procedures followed afterwards through
                  >standardisation agencies like IETF. IT-MNCs take only such
                  >IETF-vetted standards seriously for implementation in their
                  >products. Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
                  >but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)
                  >
                  >Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.
                  >Sadly TSCII has also been branded as "hacked" encoding because
                  >it did not go through the final step, namely IETF registration.
                  >This is the reason why I started this thread nearly 15 months ago.
                  >Many non-Tamil software developers keep asking me about lack of
                  >formal registration of TSCII (for that matter any encoding for
                  >Tamil) with IETF. I have no clean answers to give.
                  >
                  >Unfortunately after initial excitements, the process started here
                  >has been nearly stalled, because of the lack of progress in your
                  >efforts to get a set of "authentic" Tamil-centric names for the
                  >characters for inclusion in the proposal to be sent to IETF.
                  >
                  >It was more than a year ago that you wrote ((your email of
                  >26 May 2005 reproduced below) to say that you will contact
                  >the Tamil Language scholars of Tamilnadu and get peer-review
                  >of proposed character names for use in TSCII specifications.
                  >
                  >Can you please make use of your current stay in Tamilnadu to
                  >advance a bit on this front? I am eagerly looking forward to the
                  >details of 16-bit encoding TANE in a week's time. If that specs
                  >still lacks the kind of information that we have been searching
                  >in vain for more than a year, can we assume that even Tamilnadu
                  >Govt is not bothered about inclusion of such Tamil-centric names
                  >for characters when they propose new font encoding standards?
                  >
                  >I still stand by my earlier views, viz., that inclusion of Tamil-
                  >centric names in font specs is desirable but not absolutely essential.
                  >Losses are lot more in failing to have an established encoding
                  >formally registered. I am still at a loss to understand why we are
                  >insisting on these Tamil centric names while all our search till
                  >date showed that none of the Tamil teaching curriculam within
                  >India and outside do not care about them and even Tamil Scholars
                  >are at a loss to recall them even after weeks of soul searching.
                  >
                  >anbudan
                  >Kalyan
                  >--
                  >
                  >"Mani M. Manivannan" <mani_m_manivannan@...> wrote on 26 May 2005:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Kavi,
                  > >
                  > > > Endorsement by Tamil Scholars is different from
                  > > > endorsement by Tamil Language Scholars.
                  > >
                  > > Agreed. I am interested in the endorsement by Tamil Language
                  > > Scholars.
                  > >
                  > > > Apart from getting personal references from "Tamil
                  > > > Language Scholars". It would be a better option if
                  > > > some volunteer from Tamil Nadu present these options
                  > > > in meetings held atleast at couple of prominent Tamil
                  > > > research institutes such as Tamil University, IITS,
                  > > > Chennai University and Madurai Kamaraj University.
                  > >
                  > > I don't think one has to have a meeting to discuss this.
                  > > I have already contacted Prof. Jayadevan of Madras University
                  > > (Chennai-p-palkalai). IITS, Tamil University, MKU, Annamalai U.,
                  > > are good references. But we don't need to poll all the
                  > > universities or all the Tamil language scholars. We
                  > > can apply the usual standard for academic journal publications.
                  > > They consult a panel of referees and the process known as the
                  > > "peer review" has been the gold standard for academic publication
                  > > for a few centuries. Peer review helps improve the quality of
                  > > work that is being reviewed. But if the review panel is very
                  > > large, it becomes less efficient.
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Mani M. Manivannan
                  > >
                  >
                  >

                  Regards,

                  Ravindran K. Paul
                  http://www.thunaivan.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kalyanasundaram K
                  ... A request first. Please change the subject header of your post to start a new thread and not use reply mode of post from a different thread. On exporting
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 6, 2006
                    Dear Ashok:

                    > if there is any tool to convert tamil pdf to documen in the
                    > field there is some tool for english pdf to doc. conversion
                    > but that same tool did not work with tamil language so pls.
                    > tell me some good tools to convert tamil pdf to documaent

                    A request first. Please change the subject header of your post
                    to start a new thread and not use reply mode of post from a
                    different thread.

                    On exporting of the text of Tamil documents from PDF, it is
                    known problem for many years for several reasons. For the
                    8-bit encodings like TAB, TSCII, TAM etc, there are no official)
                    (read IETF registered) charsets and we use "user-defined" case.
                    Adobe export works only with well defined/official character sets.

                    You may wonder what happens with Tamil Unicode. Alas, here also
                    it is not possible as of date. Adobe is very much aware of this
                    problem for all Indic languages. There is a discussion on the
                    Indic mailing list sponsored by Unicode (indic at unicode.org)
                    about the lack of support for Indic scripts in Adobe problems.
                    (see post reproduced below)

                    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
                    Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:01:59 -0700
                    From: Eric Muller <emuller at adobe.com>
                    To: Sukhjinder Sidhu <sukhjinder_sidhu at hotmail.com>
                    Cc: indic at unicode.org
                    Subject: [indic] Re: FW: Adobe support (Re: Re: MS shuts down Win98)

                    Sukhjinder Sidhu wrote:
                    >
                    > Please can Adobe make at least some effort to ensure that their
                    > PDF creator program includes both the visual encoding of Indic
                    > text and the underlying Unicode? It's annoying when trying to
                    > copy the text such as ਕਿ and ending up with 'ਿਕ'! It makes
                    > text search of PDFs very problematic for Indian language users.

                    I fully appreciate the situation, and it is not unique to Indic
                    scripts by any means.

                    Unfortunately, this is more a system problem than that of any
                    particular application. In many cases, PDFs are created from a
                    print stream (e.g. the PDF generator looks like a printer to the
                    source application), and that stream does not include character
                    data, only glyph data.

                    It is possible to generate PDFs that contain the (correct) character
                    data, but it's work.

                    Eric.

                    PS: as for the original question, Adobe's policies prevent me from
                    answering.

                    ---- end of forwarded message ---
                  • pandiya raja
                    Dear Sir, I am really sorry to know the contents on your letter. I am in Madurai, a retired professor of mathematics and a former director of the computer
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 9, 2006
                      Dear Sir,
                      I am really sorry to know the contents on your letter.
                      I am in Madurai, a retired professor of mathematics
                      and a former director of the computer scince dept in a
                      reputed college here. I am interested in Tamil
                      language and literature too. In fact, I got my Ph.D
                      from the Tamil University, my title being "Statistical
                      Analysis of Linguistic features in written Tamil"
                      which was based on about 2,50,000 words randomly
                      chosen from texts ranging from tholkappiyan to the
                      weekly magazines of today.
                      We have been boasting in this part of the world that
                      Tamil has the second largest usage in internet, next
                      only to English.
                      But it is shocking to know that even TSCII has no
                      international recognition. I am not well versed with
                      the research in this area. But I would like to
                      contribute my effort towards the requirement.
                      First of all I am at a loss to know what
                      "Tamil-centric names for the characters" means. can
                      you cite some examples? Please give me more details
                      and things to be done. I assure you of my honest
                      efforts.
                      With regards and thanks,
                      P.Pandiyaraja


                      --- Kalyanasundaram K <kalyan.geo@...> wrote:

                      > Dear Mani and friends:
                      >
                      > One thing I have been insisting all along to our
                      > friends in
                      > Tamilnadu is this: In the IT arena, standards are
                      > introduced via
                      > well-established international procedures/protocols
                      > (open list
                      > discussions to work out a consensus followed by wide
                      > publication
                      > of the specifications along with tools to test the
                      > standard.
                      > process run at least for 6 months to guage public
                      > acceptance)
                      > and registration procedures followed afterwards
                      > through
                      > standardisation agencies like IETF. IT-MNCs take
                      > only such
                      > IETF-vetted standards seriously for implementation
                      > in their
                      > products. Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain
                      > to the world,
                      > but when it comes to IT standards they still go by
                      > their GOs ;-)
                      >
                      > Tamil language has been plagued by far too many
                      > encodings.
                      > Sadly TSCII has also been branded as "hacked"
                      > encoding because
                      > it did not go through the final step, namely IETF
                      > registration.
                      > This is the reason why I started this thread nearly
                      > 15 months ago.
                      > Many non-Tamil software developers keep asking me
                      > about lack of
                      > formal registration of TSCII (for that matter any
                      > encoding for
                      > Tamil) with IETF. I have no clean answers to give.
                      >
                      > Unfortunately after initial excitements, the process
                      > started here
                      > has been nearly stalled, because of the lack of
                      > progress in your
                      > efforts to get a set of "authentic" Tamil-centric
                      > names for the
                      > characters for inclusion in the proposal to be sent
                      > to IETF.
                      >
                      > It was more than a year ago that you wrote ((your
                      > email of
                      > 26 May 2005 reproduced below) to say that you will
                      > contact
                      > the Tamil Language scholars of Tamilnadu and get
                      > peer-review
                      > of proposed character names for use in TSCII
                      > specifications.
                      >
                      > Can you please make use of your current stay in
                      > Tamilnadu to
                      > advance a bit on this front? I am eagerly looking
                      > forward to the
                      > details of 16-bit encoding TANE in a week's time. If
                      > that specs
                      > still lacks the kind of information that we have
                      > been searching
                      > in vain for more than a year, can we assume that
                      > even Tamilnadu
                      > Govt is not bothered about inclusion of such
                      > Tamil-centric names
                      > for characters when they propose new font encoding
                      > standards?
                      >
                      > I still stand by my earlier views, viz., that
                      > inclusion of Tamil-
                      > centric names in font specs is desirable but not
                      > absolutely essential.
                      > Losses are lot more in failing to have an
                      > established encoding
                      > formally registered. I am still at a loss to
                      > understand why we are
                      > insisting on these Tamil centric names while all our
                      > search till
                      > date showed that none of the Tamil teaching
                      > curriculam within
                      > India and outside do not care about them and even
                      > Tamil Scholars
                      > are at a loss to recall them even after weeks of
                      > soul searching.
                      >
                      > anbudan
                      > Kalyan
                      > --
                      >
                      > "Mani M. Manivannan" <mani_m_manivannan@...> wrote
                      > on 26 May 2005:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Kavi,
                      > >
                      > > > Endorsement by Tamil Scholars is different from
                      > > > endorsement by Tamil Language Scholars.
                      > >
                      > > Agreed. I am interested in the endorsement by
                      > Tamil Language
                      > > Scholars.
                      > >
                      > > > Apart from getting personal references from
                      > "Tamil
                      > > > Language Scholars". It would be a better option
                      > if
                      > > > some volunteer from Tamil Nadu present these
                      > options
                      > > > in meetings held atleast at couple of prominent
                      > Tamil
                      > > > research institutes such as Tamil University,
                      > IITS,
                      > > > Chennai University and Madurai Kamaraj
                      > University.
                      > >
                      > > I don't think one has to have a meeting to discuss
                      > this.
                      > > I have already contacted Prof. Jayadevan of Madras
                      > University
                      > > (Chennai-p-palkalai). IITS, Tamil University,
                      > MKU, Annamalai U.,
                      > > are good references. But we don't need to poll
                      > all the
                      > > universities or all the Tamil language scholars.
                      > We
                      > > can apply the usual standard for academic journal
                      > publications.
                      > > They consult a panel of referees and the process
                      > known as the
                      > > "peer review" has been the gold standard for
                      > academic publication
                      > > for a few centuries. Peer review helps improve the
                      > quality of
                      > > work that is being reviewed. But if the review
                      > panel is very
                      > > large, it becomes less efficient.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > >
                      > > Mani M. Manivannan
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Kalyanasundaram K
                      Dear Prof. Pandiya Raja: Welcome to this TSCII discussion group. Yes, it is sad that Tamil does not have any charsets registered with IANA/IETF. (When ISCII
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 10, 2006
                        Dear Prof. Pandiya Raja:

                        Welcome to this TSCII discussion group. Yes, it is sad that
                        Tamil does not have any charsets registered with IANA/IETF.
                        (When ISCII was introduced by Govt of India, it was registered
                        only with Indian SO. When the Govt of Tamilnadu introduced TAB,
                        TAM encodings for Tamil, they were via state GOs.) If you look
                        at the list of official/formally registered list of charsets
                        with IANA, IETF, you will find harldy charsets registered
                        for ANY Indic language.

                        Most of the discussions on formal registration of TSCII encoding
                        with IETF took place during the first 6 months of last year (2005).
                        So if you consult the postings at this list page in yahoo,
                        you can follow closely the discussions. You can access them via
                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tscii/messages
                        You will also find in the /files section of this list page,
                        copies of draft proposals to send to IETF and related docs
                        (incl. possible Tamil names to consider)

                        When the discussions started, the draft proposals refered to
                        basic uyir, mei and the uyirmei characters by their English
                        names, viz., vowels, consonants and abiguda. Some participants
                        wished that, for Tamil language, specifications should use equivalent
                        Tamil names for all uyir, mei and uyirmei letters (like numbers
                        cited as onRu, iraNTu, mUnRu,....rather than as one, two, three,..)

                        Unfortunately there is hardly any information available on such
                        Tamil-centric names. There have been suggestions from some.
                        Some proposed anaa, aavanna, ina, iivanna,... (see the file
                        "tscii char name proposal-rev6.txt" in the files section)

                        At one point, Manivannan tried to contact many Tamil Professors,
                        Scholars in North America and Tamilnadu to get a list of authentic
                        names for use in the specs. Progress since then has been painfully
                        slow, if any.

                        anbudan
                        Kalyan


                        pandiya raja <ppandiyaraja@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Sir,
                        > I am really sorry to know the contents on your letter.
                        > I am in Madurai, a retired professor of mathematics
                        > and a former director of the computer scince dept in a
                        > reputed college here. I am interested in Tamil
                        > language and literature too. In fact, I got my Ph.D
                        > from the Tamil University, my title being "Statistical
                        > Analysis of Linguistic features in written Tamil"
                        > which was based on about 2,50,000 words randomly
                        > chosen from texts ranging from tholkappiyan to the
                        > weekly magazines of today.
                        > We have been boasting in this part of the world that
                        > Tamil has the second largest usage in internet, next
                        > only to English.
                        > But it is shocking to know that even TSCII has no
                        > international recognition. I am not well versed with
                        > the research in this area. But I would like to
                        > contribute my effort towards the requirement.
                        > First of all I am at a loss to know what
                        > "Tamil-centric names for the characters" means. can
                        > you cite some examples? Please give me more details
                        > and things to be done. I assure you of my honest
                        > efforts.
                        > With regards and thanks,
                        > P.Pandiyaraja
                        >
                        >
                        > --- Kalyanasundaram K <kalyan.geo@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear Mani and friends:
                        > >
                        > > One thing I have been insisting all along to our
                        > > friends in Tamilnadu is this: In the IT arena, standards are
                        <cut>
                      • vignesh dhananjayan
                        hi all, can any one give me the location of bharathi dasan poems in tamil..... i have many sites for english but i want for tamil regards Vignesh ... Find out
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 10, 2006
                          hi all,
                          can any one give me the location of bharathi dasan poems in tamil.....
                          i have many sites for english but i want for tamil
                          regards
                          Vignesh




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                        • Kavi Arasan
                          Dear Kalyan I wrote a detailed mail for this. Then decided to cut if off, as it may lead to more controversies. We discussed about this in many email lists
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 10, 2006
                            Dear Kalyan

                            I wrote a detailed mail for this. Then decided to cut if off, as it may lead to more controversies. We discussed about this in many email lists and in particular in WG02

                            The main reason IMHO is

                            Not every user of electricity is a technician, not every technician is an engineer, not every engineer is an administrator. They do play the roles properly, as they know if the do not play well it might cost their life.

                            In a ligheter vein, for Tamil IT, the scenario is different. They just keep different hats and plug and play them as needed.

                            It is a fact that many TSCII proponents were part of TAB-TAM committee, hence partly they need to own the responsibility for this mess.

                            We have talked about it so many times. Let us move on with ITEF registration, with a guiding priciple that Tamil I.T is the customer of Tamil not the other way.

                            anbudan
                            .kavi.

                            Kalyanasundaram K <kalyan.geo@...> wrote:

                            <cut>
                            Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
                            but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)

                            Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.


                            <cut>



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                          • Ravi K
                            ... I believe your statement here is wrong. As far as I know, none of the signatories of TSCII were involved in anyway with the creation of TAB-TAM. TAB-TAM
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 10, 2006
                              At 10:24 PM 9/10/2006, Kavi Arasan wrote:

                              >Dear Kalyan
                              >
                              >I wrote a detailed mail for this. Then decided
                              >to cut if off, as it may lead to more
                              >controversies. We discussed about this in many
                              >email lists and in particular in WG02
                              >
                              >The main reason IMHO is
                              >
                              >Not every user of electricity is a technician,
                              >not every technician is an engineer, not every
                              >engineer is an administrator. They do play the
                              >roles properly, as they know if the do not play well it might cost their life.
                              >
                              >In a ligheter vein, for Tamil IT, the scenario
                              >is different. They just keep different hats and plug and play them as needed.
                              >
                              >It is a fact that many TSCII proponents were
                              >part of TAB-TAM committee, hence partly they
                              >need to own the responsibility for this mess.


                              I believe your statement here is wrong. As far as
                              I know, none of the signatories of TSCII were
                              involved in anyway with the creation of TAB-TAM.
                              TAB-TAM was a surprise and a "shock" for most of us.


                              >We have talked about it so many times. Let us
                              >move on with ITEF registration, with a guiding
                              >priciple that Tamil I.T is the customer of Tamil not the other way.
                              >
                              >anbudan
                              >.kavi.
                              >
                              >Kalyanasundaram K <<mailto:kalyan.geo%40yahoo.com>kalyan.geo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              ><cut>
                              >Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
                              >but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)
                              >
                              >Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.
                              >
                              ><cut>
                              >
                              >
                              >---------------------------------
                              >Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
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                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >

                              Regards,

                              Ravindran K. Paul
                              http://www.thunaivan.com

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • K Kalyanasundaram
                              Dear Kavi and friends: The sequence of events from Tamilnet99 Chennai conference (held in Feb 1999) to mid-June 99 when TAB,TAM standards were announced has
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 10, 2006
                                Dear Kavi and friends:

                                The sequence of events from Tamilnet99 Chennai conference (held in
                                Feb 1999) to mid-June 99 when TAB,TAM standards were announced has
                                been elaborated earlier several times. I do not want to repeat them
                                here, except to clarify that neither me nor Muthu (two persons who
                                attended Tamilnet99) were involved in any committees that worked on
                                TAB,TAM encodings. Hence we are NOT responsible in any way for the
                                mess.

                                On the future course for TSCII registration, I do not want to prejudge
                                the polls (please vote and register your preferences). If the majority
                                of folks in this forum feel that Tamil centric names are "essential",
                                I will respect that decision. But I would like this group to set fixed
                                timetable to get such data (emphasis : authentic data that has
                                consensus
                                view), failing which we should go ahead with the registration with
                                English names alone. I do not want these discussions to drag on for
                                ever. If there is no willingness to set deadlines and proceed
                                accordingly, I prefer to withdraw my name from the list of signatories.

                                anbudan
                                Kalyan

                                --- Ravi K <ravi@...> wrote:

                                > At 10:24 PM 9/10/2006, Kavi Arasan wrote:
                                >
                                > >Dear Kalyan
                                > >
                                > >I wrote a detailed mail for this. Then decided
                                > >to cut if off, as it may lead to more
                                > >controversies. We discussed about this in many
                                > >email lists and in particular in WG02
                                > >
                                > >The main reason IMHO is
                                > >
                                > >Not every user of electricity is a technician,
                                > >not every technician is an engineer, not every
                                > >engineer is an administrator. They do play the
                                > >roles properly, as they know if the do not play well it might cost
                                > their life.
                                > >
                                > >In a ligheter vein, for Tamil IT, the scenario is different.
                                > > They just keep different hats and plug and play them as needed.
                                > >
                                > >It is a fact that many TSCII proponents were
                                > >part of TAB-TAM committee, hence partly they
                                > >need to own the responsibility for this mess.
                                >
                                > I believe your statement here is wrong. As far as
                                > I know, none of the signatories of TSCII were
                                > involved in anyway with the creation of TAB-TAM.
                                > TAB-TAM was a surprise and a "shock" for most of us.
                                >
                                > >We have talked about it so many times. Let us
                                > >move on with ITEF registration, with a guiding
                                > >priciple that Tamil I.T is the customer of Tamil not the other way.
                                > >
                                > >anbudan
                                > >.kavi.
                                > >
                                > >Kalyanasundaram K
                                > <<mailto:kalyan.geo%40yahoo.com>kalyan.geo@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > ><cut>
                                > >Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
                                > >but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)
                                > >Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.

                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Ravindran K. Paul
                                > http://www.thunaivan.com
                                >
                                <cut>
                              • Kavi Arasan
                                Dear Kalyan I will be surprised if this poll comes out as an YES for Tamil Centric Registration. Many times/lists we discussed the plight of Tamils and how
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 11, 2006
                                  Dear Kalyan

                                  I will be surprised if this poll comes out as an 'YES" for Tamil Centric Registration.

                                  Many times/lists we discussed the plight of Tamils and how many Tamils have interest in Tamil.

                                  Even Tamil centric scholars have varities from Sangath Tamil to Granthath Tamil to Tanglish

                                  Withdrawing your name, my name is not going to help, rathar we will be loosing an ardent Tamil IT enthusiast, which I do not think is an option in my opinion.

                                  I am sure the seven members can meet in the middle. And if you have noticed no other members is sending the one-line reply which is requested. I will try and send a personal mail to all the seven of them, once you agree for the following steps. We can add a time to each of the step. Once is almost complete, I have one list, Mani has one list and You have one list.

                                  Here is what I suggest.

                                  1. Let all the seven members come up with their own names chart, or whoever is interested come up with their own chart.
                                  2. Conduct a vote for these charts created by 7 members.
                                  3. If more than one Document gets equal votes, get the opinion from this TSCII group.
                                  4. Circulate the names to GBINFITT, TVU, KTS for their feedback.

                                  P.S. Discussing about TAB-TAM <======> TSCII is not going to help much. I hope 8bit <===> 16 bit Unicode does not become a mess like this again.

                                  anbudan
                                  .kavi.

                                  K Kalyanasundaram <kalyan.geo@...> wrote:
                                  Dear Kavi and friends:

                                  The sequence of events from Tamilnet99 Chennai conference (held in
                                  Feb 1999) to mid-June 99 when TAB,TAM standards were announced has
                                  been elaborated earlier several times. I do not want to repeat them
                                  here, except to clarify that neither me nor Muthu (two persons who
                                  attended Tamilnet99) were involved in any committees that worked on
                                  TAB,TAM encodings. Hence we are NOT responsible in any way for the
                                  mess.

                                  On the future course for TSCII registration, I do not want to prejudge
                                  the polls (please vote and register your preferences). If the majority
                                  of folks in this forum feel that Tamil centric names are "essential",
                                  I will respect that decision. But I would like this group to set fixed
                                  timetable to get such data (emphasis : authentic data that has
                                  consensus
                                  view), failing which we should go ahead with the registration with
                                  English names alone. I do not want these discussions to drag on for
                                  ever. If there is no willingness to set deadlines and proceed
                                  accordingly, I prefer to withdraw my name from the list of signatories.

                                  anbudan
                                  Kalyan

                                  --- Ravi K wrote:

                                  > At 10:24 PM 9/10/2006, Kavi Arasan wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Dear Kalyan
                                  > >
                                  > >I wrote a detailed mail for this. Then decided
                                  > >to cut if off, as it may lead to more
                                  > >controversies. We discussed about this in many
                                  > >email lists and in particular in WG02
                                  > >
                                  > >The main reason IMHO is
                                  > >
                                  > >Not every user of electricity is a technician,
                                  > >not every technician is an engineer, not every
                                  > >engineer is an administrator. They do play the
                                  > >roles properly, as they know if the do not play well it might cost
                                  > their life.
                                  > >
                                  > >In a ligheter vein, for Tamil IT, the scenario is different.
                                  > > They just keep different hats and plug and play them as needed.
                                  > >
                                  > >It is a fact that many TSCII proponents were
                                  > >part of TAB-TAM committee, hence partly they
                                  > >need to own the responsibility for this mess.
                                  >
                                  > I believe your statement here is wrong. As far as
                                  > I know, none of the signatories of TSCII were
                                  > involved in anyway with the creation of TAB-TAM.
                                  > TAB-TAM was a surprise and a "shock" for most of us.
                                  >
                                  > >We have talked about it so many times. Let us
                                  > >move on with ITEF registration, with a guiding
                                  > >priciple that Tamil I.T is the customer of Tamil not the other way.
                                  > >
                                  > >anbudan
                                  > >.kavi.
                                  > >
                                  > >Kalyanasundaram K
                                  > <kalyan.geo@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >Tamilnadu may be lead supplier of IT brain to the world,
                                  > >but when it comes to IT standards they still go by their GOs ;-)
                                  > >Tamil language has been plagued by far too many encodings.

                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  >
                                  > Ravindran K. Paul
                                  > http://www.thunaivan.com
                                  >




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                                • V.Shrinivas
                                  Dear Mr.Vignesh, The only website that I know of, where you will access to the comprete works of Bharathi Dasan is http://www.tamilvu.org/ which is run
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 11, 2006
                                    Dear Mr.Vignesh,
                                    The only website that I know of, where you will access to the
                                    comprete works of Bharathi Dasan is
                                    http://www.tamilvu.org/ which is run Tamilnadu Virtual University

                                    Some of the poet's works are available in
                                    http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai run by Thiru Kalyanasundaram


                                    --- In tscii@yahoogroups.com, vignesh dhananjayan <vignesh_ad@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > hi all,
                                    > can any one give me the location of bharathi dasan poems in
                                    tamil.....
                                    > i have many sites for english but i want for tamil
                                    > regards
                                    > Vignesh
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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